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  1. #1
    Community Member Alcides's Avatar
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    Default Grey Guard (Paladin Enhancement tree)

    This is based on the 3.5 Grey Guard paladin prestige class. Grey Guards perform the dirty work of the religious organizations they serve and bring wrong doers to justice no matter what. They are sanctioned to use any means necessary in order to do so.

    CORES:
    • Core 1: Spirit of Duty
      Melee Smite SLA: An enemy is affected by Smite Evil and Inflict Wounds. Cost: 4 Spell Points Cooldown: 6 seconds.
      Passive: For each Core Ability in this tree you get +5% Healing Amplification, +1 Lay on Hands, +5 Positive and Negative Spell power.
      Passive: Your Lay on Hands heals for an amount equal to your Religious Lore feats times your Charisma bonus plus your Epic Levels times your Charisma bonus.
    • Core 2: Spirit of Repose
      Passive: Regain 1 use of Remove Disease every 3 minutes.
    • Core 3: Spirit of Justice
      Upon Smiting: Your party gains a Divine bonus to Healing Amplification equal to your Religious Lore feats for 20 seconds.
    • Core 4: Spirit of Combat
      Upon Smiting: Your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Religious Lore feats for 20 seconds.
    • Core 5: Spirit of Heroism
      Upon Smiting: Your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Religious Lore feats for 20 seconds.
    • Core 6: Spirit of the Fallen
      Active: Spirit of the Fallen (SLA) - A Lay on Hands effect is applied to all allies within 30 meters. All enemies within 30 meters take Negative damage equal to the healing of your Lay on Hands. Cost: 100 Spell Points. Cooldown: 3 minutes.
      Passive: Regain 1 use of Lay on Hands every 3 minutes.
      Passive Multiselector: You gain +4 Charisma or Wisdom.


    TIER 1:
    • Divine Emissary (2): Passive Multiselector.
      Justicar: Gain the Force of Personality feat and use your Charisma to determine your bonus spell points.
      Ascetic: Your Wisdom determines the amount of healing of Lay on Hands, Smite Evil and saving throw bonus from Divine Grace.
    • Divine Learning (1): +30/+60/+100 maximum spell points. Rank 3: You gain the Magical Training feat
    • Extra Lay on Hands (1): +1/2/3 Lay on Hands use per rest.
    • Extra Remove Disease (1): You gain +2/4/6 Remove Disease uses per rest.
    • (this space intentionally left blank)


    TIER 2:
    • Divine Marshal (2): Passive Multiselector.
      Ascetic: The higher of Wisdom or Strength determines your hit with weapons and shields.
      Justicar: The higher of Charisma or Strength determines your hit with weapons and shields.
    • Proclamation (2): Active Multiselector
      SLA: A target is affected by Cure Moderate Wounds. Cost: 6 Spell points. Cooldown: 6 seconds.
      Melee Smite (SLA): An enemy is affected by Smite Evil + 1W and Inflict Moderate Wounds. Cost: 6 Spell points. Cooldown: 6 seconds.
      Passive: Gain Inflict Moderate Wounds as 1st level Paladin spell.
    • Aura of Menace (1)
      Toggle: You project a 15 meter Aura of Menace, decreasing the saving throws, attack, and armor class of nearby enemies by 2.
    • Debilitating Touch (2)
      SLA: Expend a Remove Disease to cause your melee and shield attacks to sicken enemies for 30/60/120 seconds. Save DC: 10 + Character Level + higher of Charisma or Wisdom bonus.
    • (this space intentionally left blank)


    TIER 3:
    • Divine Evincar (2): Passive Multiselector.
      Ascetic: The higher of Wisdom or Strength determines your damage with weapons and shields.
      Justicar: The higher of Charisma or Strength determines your damage with weapons and shields.
    • Judgement (2): Active Multiselector
      SLA: A target is affected by Cure Serious Wounds. Cost: 8 Spell points. Cooldown: 8 seconds.
      Melee Smite (SLA): An enemy is affected by Smite Evil + 2W and Inflict Serious Wounds. Cost: 8 Spell points. Cooldown: 8 seconds.
      Passive: Gain Inflict Serious Wounds as a 2nd level Paladin spell.
    • Unbound Justice (1)
      Passive: Add your Religious Lore feats as an Insight bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate.
    • Dichotomy (1)
      Passive: Add 10/20/30 to your Postitive and Negative Spell power
    • Stat (2)
      Passive: +1 Charisma or Wisdom


    TIER 4:
    • Divine Champion (2): Channel Divinity Multiselector
      Ascetic: You gain an Insight bonus to hit, damage, and the DC of tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Wisdom modifier for 30/60/120 seconds.
      Ascetic Conviction: You gain a Sacred bonus to Negative and Positive Power equal to 5 + your Wisdom modifier for 30/60/120 seconds.
      Justicar: You gain an Insight bonus to hit, damage, and the DC of tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Charisma modifier for 30/60/120 seconds.
      Justicar Conviction: You gain a Sacred bonus to Negative and Positive Spell Power equal to 5 + your Charisma modifier for 30/60/120 seconds.
    • Ultimatum (2): Active Multiselector
      SLA: A target is affected by Cure Critical Wounds. Cost: 12 Spell points. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
      Melee Smite (SLA): An enemy is affected by Smite Evil + 3W and Inflict Critical Wounds. Cost: 12 Spell points. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
      Passive: Gain Inflict Critical Wounds as a 3rd level Paladin spell.
    • Spiteful Countenance (2)
      Passive: The target(s) of your melee attacks are shaken.
      Passive: The target(s) of your smite attacks have a chance equal to your Religious Lore feats to be affected by Inflict Critical Wounds.
    • Painful Touch (1)
      Passive: Your Debilitating Touch also causes your melee and shield attacks to decrease the attack and saving throws of enemies by 1. This stacks up to 5 times.
    • Stat (2)
      Passive: +1 Charisma or Wisdom


    Tier 5:
    • Divine Enlightenment (2)
      Passive: Your Final Edict SLA, Lay on Hands, and Spirit of the Fallen SLA are affected by the higher of your Positive or Negative Spell critical chance.
    • Final Edict (2)
      Melee Smite: An enemy within melee range takes Negative damage equal to the healing of your Lay on Hands. Cost: 25 Spell Points. Cooldown: 30 seconds.
    • Sacrament of True Faith (2)
      Passive: You can equip alignment based items without restriction, and do not suffer any negative effects from alignment based items.
    • Poison Touch (1)
      Passive: Your Debilitating Touch also causes your melee and shield attacks to deal 2d6/4d6/6d6 poison damage to enemies. The poison damage scales with Negative Spell power.
    • Forceful Interrogation (1)
      Passive: Painful Touch can stack up to 10 times.
    Last edited by Alcides; 01-04-2020 at 07:13 PM.

  2. #2
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Which Paladin enhancement tree will this tree replace?
    "A wise person chooses the right road; a fool takes the wrong one." - Author unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
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  3. #3
    Community Member Alcides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    Which Paladin enhancement tree will this tree replace?
    It wasn't my intention to replace any Paladin enhancement tree. Although from a thematic perspective I would say it should replace Vanguard. Vanguard should really become a Universal tree since it has a very class neutral identity.

    The design I proposed here was more of a darker type paladin striding that thin line between good and evil.
    Last edited by Alcides; 01-04-2020 at 01:16 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcides View Post
    It wasn't my intention to replace any Paladin enhancement tree. Although from a thematic perspective I would say it should replace Vanguard. Vanguard should really become a Universal tree since it has a very class neutral identity.

    The design I proposed here was more of a darker type paladin striding that thin line between good and evil.
    Then what are you gonna give Fighter to replace it?

    I like the idea of another Negative energy build...but I dont think that Inflict Wounds are good enough right now to build around as offensive spells. Monster and player HP are so disparate that anything balanced to heal players is never going to do meaningful damage to enemies

    Also there's not a whole lot going for this tree at the top end - but conversely, universal WIS and CHA combat stat for all weapons is really powerful, probably OP, and Cure Wounds SLAs are equally strong. I get the feeling it'd just end up becoming a /4 Pal splash for an alternative to Falconry or 10+ FVS for builds. Gives you heavy armor, saves, WIS/CHA to dmg on any weapon and spammable heals. That's a pretty complete kit to pair with, say, Monk or Druid or even Sorc or Lock. And it'd even work with xbows.

    I do like the idea of making Vanguard a Universal - maybe behind Deneith favor. That'd be an interesting pair with EK. Maybe give Fighter a THF tree instead.

  5. #5
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    Grey Guard is a stupid idea.
    Some players want to be evil but still have Paladin powers.
    Why not admit that you'd rather be a Blackguard?

  6. #6
    Community Member Alcides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Then what are you gonna give Fighter to replace it?

    I like the idea of another Negative energy build...but I dont think that Inflict Wounds are good enough right now to build around as offensive spells. Monster and player HP are so disparate that anything balanced to heal players is never going to do meaningful damage to enemies

    Also there's not a whole lot going for this tree at the top end - but conversely, universal WIS and CHA combat stat for all weapons is really powerful, probably OP, and Cure Wounds SLAs are equally strong. I get the feeling it'd just end up becoming a /4 Pal splash for an alternative to Falconry or 10+ FVS for builds. Gives you heavy armor, saves, WIS/CHA to dmg on any weapon and spammable heals. That's a pretty complete kit to pair with, say, Monk or Druid or even Sorc or Lock. And it'd even work with xbows.

    I do like the idea of making Vanguard a Universal - maybe behind Deneith favor. That'd be an interesting pair with EK. Maybe give Fighter a THF tree instead.
    Falconry can change your combat stat to Wisdom with a trance. Harper Agent does this for INT. Favored soul can do this to a lesser extent with CHA. From my perspective class trees should be stronger than Universal trees. I did consider the different combinations from this. I guess the SLAs could do damage based on class level plus epic levels for balance reasons. Good feedback.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    Which Paladin enhancement tree will this tree replace?
    I don't think we need anymore evil types in DDO (we could do with fewer!), let alone ones claiming to be Paladins, but...why would it have to "replace" any of them? Sorc has 5 trees, why can't Paladin have 4?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Sorc has 5 trees, why can't Paladin have 4?
    Sorry, I don't count the 4 Elemental Savant trees as separate. They're all basically the same except their elements are different. Eldritch Knight is a separate tree, of course, but that's an almost completely different Sorc play style from the Savant trees (which are all basically the same play style).

    If the OP had suggested a "6th" tree for a Sorc, I'd listen. They'd have to suggest a 3rd play style different from the Elemental Savant and the Eldritch Knight play styles, though.
    "A wise person chooses the right road; a fool takes the wrong one." - Author unknown

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    Sorry, I don't count the 4 Elemental Savant trees as separate.
    Sure, they are similar, but how you personally think of them isn't my point. Is there some technical reason it's not possible to for Paladin (or other class) to have 4 trees, when we already have the example of Sorc having 5 trees?

    Consider the poor, lamented Druid: a full caster class stuck with two thematically identical melee-in-animal-form trees and only one caster tree that doesn't even touch on a core Druid idea of summoning. There should be a second Druid caster tree, containing some focus on summoning. Does that for some reason (not just me thinking NP & NW are too similar) require "replacing" one of the animal- melee trees?

    My question isn't really about Sorc; that's just my easy counter-example. It's why you thought the word "replace" had to come into the conversation about another tree at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcides View Post
    Falconry can change your combat stat to Wisdom with a trance. Harper Agent does this for INT. Favored soul can do this to a lesser extent with CHA. From my perspective class trees should be stronger than Universal trees. I did consider the different combinations from this. I guess the SLAs could do damage based on class level plus epic levels for balance reasons. Good feedback.
    Counterpoint - Universal trees are paid/unlocked content, Paladin is F2P from the start. Universal trees also pretty much only give stat-to-dmg, while class trees define your class' playstyle, plus you get whatever bonuses come with the class levels themselves (ie saves and LoH for Paladin). FvS is both unlocked content, and requires 10+ FvS levels. The opportunity cost for /4 Pal in Grey Guard is much lower than for getting it via Falconry.

    IMO the difference shouldnt be weaker vs. stronger...class trees should be more fundamental to your playstyle, while universal trees offer more generic things that enhance a wide variety of builds and styles.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Sure, they are similar, but how you personally think of them isn't my point. Is there some technical reason it's not possible to for Paladin (or other class) to have 4 trees, when we already have the example of Sorc having 5 trees?

    Consider the poor, lamented Druid: a full caster class stuck with two thematically identical melee-in-animal-form trees and only one caster tree that doesn't even touch on a core Druid idea of summoning. There should be a second Druid caster tree, containing some focus on summoning. Does that for some reason (not just me thinking NP & NW are too similar) require "replacing" one of the animal- melee trees?

    My question isn't really about Sorc; that's just my easy counter-example. It's why you thought the word "replace" had to come into the conversation about another tree at all.
    Technically no, but I agree that Sorc only has 2 trees (ie two supported playstyles), and the question is more one of design philosophy than technical feasibility.

    I dont think Druid's trees are redundant either. You have a melee DPS tree, a tanking tree, and a casting tree. Also you know full well that summoning sucks and having a tree dedicated to it, without a comprehensive Summoning 2.0 system overhaul, would be a waste of time and a noob trap :P

    Now you do touch on a valid point about playing a caster. Usually being an offensive caster means being pure class, but pretty much all caster classes but Sorc and Lock only have one tree dedicated to offensive casting: Arcanotech, Divine Disciple, Angel of Vengeance...Wiz kinda has two half-trees between PM and the sucky Archmage...which means you dont have a way to spend all 80 of your AP to go fully in on your casting. But Druid is not alone in that, and doesnt have a unique need for a second caster tree. A Druid caster can invest in NP for defensive bonuses - not all require Bear form - just as a wiz caster would invest in EK for defenses. It'd make more sense to address that overarching need with a caster-focused Universal tree than to try and give every caster class a second casting tree that's somehow distinct from the first (e.g. what else would Arti get that wouldnt just be more AT?).

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    ...the question is more one of design philosophy than technical feasibility.
    My question is technical feasibility, but either way, why say that Paladin must have only 3, and introducing a new one requires replacing an existing one?

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I dont think Druid's trees are redundant either. You have a melee DPS tree, a tanking tree, and a casting tree.
    This is getting to be kind of a derail from the topic. I was talking about number of trees, but if you want to deep-dive into Druid, we can do that a bit, I guess.

    It's a caster class with only one caster tree. They could have had bear/wolf multi-selectors in a single tree, but they have two entire trees dedicated to up-close-and-personal melee combat in animal form. I'm not saying they are identical, but it's screwy to have two melee trees and only one caster tree on a caster class.

    If getting a second caster tree requires deleting one of the melee trees, then delete away! (Or preferably, combine.) But I'm not actively trying to remove those trees; I wouldn't care if there were four trees instead of three, if that is technically feasible.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Also you know full well that summoning sucks and having a tree dedicated to it, without a comprehensive Summoning 2.0 system overhaul, would be a waste of time and a noob trap :P
    No, I don't know that. I think a tree with pet/summons focus would be great for Druid. It's one of the defining features of the class and is currently pretty much ignored in the enhancement system. Druids have to either multi-class (ugh! counter-productive on a caster) or dump points into P2W universal trees if they want to buff their summons. I would use such a tree for sure! Better then dumping 22 points into a melee tree, of which only 4 are actually useful and 18 are wasted.

    I feel that enhancements for Druid casters are in a bad, bad place right now. Not only do we only have one tree when every other full caster class has two, but even the single tree we have had the **** nerfed out of it a year and a half ago, for no explicable reason. And our third tree, uniquely, doesn't even have casting stat.

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    ...pretty much all caster classes but Sorc...[deleted]...only have one tree dedicated to offensive casting:...[deleted]...Divine Disciple, Angel of Vengeance...Wiz kinda has two half-trees between PM and the sucky Archmage...which means you dont have a way to spend all 80 of your AP to go fully in on your casting. But Druid is not alone in that, and doesnt have a unique need for a second caster tree.
    I said casting. You're deliberately leaving out the other casting trees? Radiant Servant and Beacon of Hope are both very much casting trees. Druid really is alone as the only full caster class with only a single casting tree. Cleric, Favored Soul, and Wizard all have two. Druid really does have a unique need for a second caster tree.

    (I don't really care to compare to full 9-spell-levels primary caster classes with the specialist 6-spell-level secondary casters like Bard, Arti, or Warlock. Make any such comparisons you want, of course, but I'm going to ignore them as irrelevant.)

    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    A Druid caster can invest in NP for defensive bonuses - not all require Bear form - just as a wiz caster would invest in EK for defenses.
    If they are trying to improve their casting, then NP is worthless. A Wiz going into EK can take casting stat bonuses, and spell power. Warpriest/WarSoul also have both casting stat and spell power available. NP doesn't even have Wisdom as one of it's ability options, on a Wisdom-based class!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

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