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  1. #21
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    correct

    If I am in a dungeon, I want my attention to be ON THE DUNGEON
    not on my quick bar.
    My twitch channel fatherfungus2008

  2. #22

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    +1 to the notion that finishing moves are too complicated to get off. I don't so much mind having to build up ki, or having to do 4 attacks in the right sequence, but the whole "open a door, pick up a collectible, sneeze, whatever, and you have to start all over" is kind of a deal-breaker. I finally got a monk up to 17, where I have enough ki to play around with some of the special moves, but along the way to getting there I ended up completely giving up on ever trying to get a finishing move off unless I specifically needed a healing ki finisher :P

  3. #23
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    so basically, don't change monk...just automate some of it.

    and for the love of Loki, get rid of the "if you open a door or pick up anything
    you start over"...****.
    My twitch channel fatherfungus2008

  4. #24
    Community Member Seljuck's Avatar
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    If you spend 1/4 of the time you devote to writing this nonsense in the forum, to learn to play monk, then you will definitely notice that this mechanics works and is doing great.

    Nowadays, players are spoiled with all kinds of facilitators, so they can no longer think, predict and plan on their own. They can only mindlessly press one button and wait for everything to happen automatically.

    That's what you want for DDO? Mindless single button pressing?
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seljuck View Post
    If you spend 1/4 of the time you devote to writing this nonsense in the forum, to learn to play monk, then you will definitely notice that this mechanics works and is doing great.

    Nowadays, players are spoiled with all kinds of facilitators, so they can no longer think, predict and plan on their own. They can only mindlessly press one button and wait for everything to happen automatically.

    That's what you want for DDO? Mindless single button pressing?
    I agree that there are plenty of classes/builds that require less attention to the hotbars to master and having one or two classes that are a little more finicky to play well is just fine.

    However, I also agree that having sequences interrupted so easily is unnecessary and should be reworked.

  6. #26
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    Yeah, there is a difference between abilities that open up complex gameplay with a high skill ceiling, and abilities that are just frustratingly finicky that distract you from the game. I'm all for the former, but monk finishing moves fall in the latter category.

    I don't know, maybe if you have a low latency and play monks for years you might internalize all the quirks to the point where it feels natural, but as a high-latency and infrequent monk player, even as an avid action gamer the combos definitely do not feel fluid to me. I would prefer fixing the loss of charges+giving them better visual indicators, but if that is too much work, any change that makes them less finicky would be preferable over the current state.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 12-31-2019 at 10:46 AM.

  7. #27
    Drow Machine Gunner Vasandralov's Avatar
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    They're probably already gonna nerf IPS due to complaints from people that can't be bothered to learn the skills needed to play a class.

    Every fun/difficult/challenging aspect of this game reverts into the abyss from laziness. My earliest memories of the trend were removing Crucible as a flagger and removing falling as instafail from VON2

    Monk can be a sick good build. Do a quick youtube search. What makes it good is you don't get to just stand there and 'win'- there's room for mistakes. Mistakes that hinder your effectiveness on it.

    Instead of begging for the game to be dumbed down, try overcoming a challenge. Skill based tactics for effectiveness are a huge draw for me, and their dumbing down is one reason I don't play as often anymore - I absolutely don't want it to get worse.

    IPS nerf may very well be a nail in the coffin for me as is.

  8. #28
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    The worst thing about Monk is the attack animation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasandralov View Post
    IPS nerf may very well be a nail in the coffin for me as is.
    Just that it's even being discussed as possibly getting nerfed has contributed greatly to my waning interest in this game.

  9. #29
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    To nerf or not to nerf, that is the question ... for a different thread :-P
    Happy New Year.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    To nerf or not to nerf, that is the question ... for a different thread :-P
    Happy New Year.
    Yeah, sometimes I wonder if people even read the thread, or if they are just using it as a place to vent about their pet peeves.

  11. #31
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    Not everything is about DPS though, the OP was complaining that the monk finishing moves were just too clunky to use. DPS-wise monks are probably OK, but that is a separate discussion. Except for WW, gameplay-wise, most of the monk special attacks are a dumpster fire. I would say most people just spam FoL and some stunning fist, hoping they can manage to activate a Healing Ki once in a while. The monk combo system lacks modern visual indicators of the charges, which is compounded by lag, misses and frequent resets from non-combat actions. I'm not sure if there even is an in-game guide to how it is supposed to work.

    In light of that, making the finishing move auto-cast when available, *or* putting in some visual indicators and maybe allowing finishing moves to cast if you just have the right sequence in there somewhere (even with other moves in-between) would make monk a lot less painful to play. Perhaps we would actually see some dark monks for once.
    Forumites will make it all about DPS when pushing the agenda that something is too str0nk.

    Like I said before, if monk requires to much APM, timing, and conditions being met, dont play any end game raiding focused game where they require multiplicitively more APM, correct rotation order, multi button click combos, on top of knowing when to burst and when to hold back. RTS games would all be off limits as well.

    People around here complained that singing to many bard songs was annoying and traded +4 single stat buffs for +2 to all stat buffs, and also complained about the 2 APM it takes to refresh frenzy/death frenzy, so its no surprise some want monk to turn into warlock/inquis levels of skill floor. I disagree with the sentiment however. Every game needs a class or two that selects out for APM, skill floor, and timing. Those players gravitate to DDO as much and as often as the spreadsheet gamers who would rather their stats did all the heavy lifting rather than having to "play their AC" so to speak.

    There are plenty of low skill floor low APM classes/builds in DDO, so no need to erode/remove those few left which still satisfy players who gravitate to high APM high skill floor builds.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-01-2020 at 12:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    +1 to the notion that finishing moves are too complicated to get off. I don't so much mind having to build up ki, or having to do 4 attacks in the right sequence, but the whole "open a door, pick up a collectible, sneeze, whatever, and you have to start all over" is kind of a deal-breaker. I finally got a monk up to 17, where I have enough ki to play around with some of the special moves, but along the way to getting there I ended up completely giving up on ever trying to get a finishing move off unless I specifically needed a healing ki finisher :P
    Yup. This is very similar to what my wife experienced as a new player with some of the debuff and DOT special effects.

    "Wow that's cool"

    "Yup, but by the time it makes enough difference to matter, the monster will be dead"

    "Oh yah.... that's too bad"


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saekee View Post
    I like all the crazy monk combos

    I think the standard elemental attacks ought to be a toggle though like EK and not use ki. You can still do Grasp the Earth with Fist of Iron combo or have them as optional active attacks. By the time you ate in Destinies there are an insane number of active attacks and the elemental ones do nor scale—sure Earth is straight damage but with cooldown is it worth it?
    I always wanted Monk to work like Warden does in LOTRO (or at least back when I played it, up through Rohan or so). Just four buttons, and knowing your combos and when to time them, using them strategically, etc. But Warden had LOTS of combos compared to Monk's very short list of Finishers. Also Warden could pop off attacks much quicker than Monks do so it played more dynamically. And you didnt have the problem like you do in DDO with melee attacks whiffing so much.

    I'd be really down for a Monk overhaul where you had 2- and 3-hit combos, where every possible combo was a unique finisher. That's 80 possible combos, a huge amount of utility and diversity possible for a player skilled enough to learn them all. Monks should always be chaining combos to keep buffs active, proc heals, and stacks debuffs and DOTs when appropriate.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Forumites will make it all about DPS when pushing the agenda that something is too str0nk.

    Like I said before, if monk requires to much APM, timing, and conditions bing met, dont play any end game raiding focused game where they require multiplicitively more APM, correct rotation order, multi button click combos, on top of knowing when to burst and when to hold back. RTS games would all be off limits as well.

    People around here complained that singing to many bard songs was annoying and traded +4 single stat buffs for +2 to all stat buffs, and also complained about the 2 APM it takes to refresh frenzy/death frenzy, so its no surprise some want monk to turn into warlock/inquis levels of skill floor. I disagree with the sentiment however. Every game needs a class or two that selects out for APM, skill floor, and timing. Those players gravitate to DDO as much and as often as the spreadsheet gamers who would rather their stats did all the heavy lifting rather than having to "play their AC" so to speak.

    There are plenty of low skill floor low APM classes/builds in DDO, so no need to erode/remove those few left which still satisfy players who gravitate to high APM high skill floor builds.
    Most people in this thread weren't asking for more DPS or lower APM though. They were asking for something that didn't fail due to poor design, such as losing charges on environmental interaction, or an attack in the sequence going missing without any visual indication of which one. In fact, finishing moves would be MUCH less frustrating if they removed cooldowns for the standard moves (regardless of rank), which is higher APM. That way you can at least finish the combo quickly enough to avoid most of the problems above. Monk combos, especially at low levels when you need to save up charges over several enemies, are just super fragile.

    EDIT: Digging around, the wiki has a long list of things that can break monk combos: https://ddowiki.com/page/Finishing_Moves
    Many issues have also previously been raised on the forums, see JINGs thread from here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-and-Abilities
    Apparently the finishing moves also have semi-hidden individual cooldowns that also cause inexplicable failures.

    droid327: That sounds interesting, but perhaps too much development work. Maybe just removal of cooldowns for current moves and some slight tweaks would be close enough?
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 01-01-2020 at 01:12 PM.

  15. #35
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    droid327

    I always wanted Monk to work like Warden does in LOTRO (or at least back when I played it, up through Rohan or so). Just four buttons, and knowing your combos and when to time them, using them strategically, etc. But Warden had LOTS of combos compared to Monk's very short list of Finishers. Also Warden could pop off attacks much quicker than Monks do so it played more dynamically. And you didnt have the problem like you do in DDO with melee attacks whiffing so much.

    I'd be really down for a Monk overhaul where you had 2- and 3-hit combos, where every possible combo was a unique finisher. That's 80 possible combos, a huge amount of utility and diversity possible for a player skilled enough to learn them all. Monks should always be chaining combos to keep buffs active, proc heals, and stacks debuffs and DOTs when appropriate
    I have said this multiple times, the monk should be fluid like the Warden in lotro, not a clunky mess.

  16. #36
    Community Member Rog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    Every time I try monk, I delete it before level 5.

    1.) Monk's big hitter is the 'finishing move' You have to build up KI, not open doors or
    ANYTHING or you have to start over. Then when you finally get enough, you attack
    X number of times, AND FINALLY you get to make your big move.
    Either you miss (nothing) or most likely they resist (nothing) or it sticks ... some minor effect.

    2.) ANY class that splashes 1 level of Sorc or wiz, spend >> 1 pt << on EK
    Free cleave, rarely misses anything, +1 W dam AND 1-2 force damage per character level. just click the power once.

    Why would anyone want a monk? Their game mechanics are old, complicated, and weak.
    CRAFTING A MAGIC ITEM HAS LESS STEPS THEN THE BIG MONK ATTACK. let that sink in.

    A possible fix, make the finishing move a toggle that is choosen by the player ahead of time that
    periodically triggers on it's own and actually does something useful. Also trash mobs should RARELY resist it.

    A monk SHOULD be allowed to put down their big hits
    as easily as any other class.

    PEACE
    i been playing my monk since the class came out. they are not the best killing machine at the moment
    and sadly to say in high reaper they can only tank red name end boss's for quest.
    true high reaper tanks are now sword and board monks are second string
    starting to gear for iq. its really hard when you have a tr catch built over years for monk.
    in low level content go into wind stance get good wraps and kill everything easy peazy

  17. #37
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    Default monks have finishing moves?

    Just Kidding. I know that. (On a side note, I had a large write-up and decided to delete for fear of somebody uncovering another monk nerf)

    that being said, I never ever use finishing moves and I only play monks ever. I don't feel they are that good or even worth "charging" up to use. by the time I would do this, the mob is dead anyways.

    So, in my opinion, forget about them, or make them just clickies that you can use once a min or something. (kinda like EIN now)

    Nico

  18. #38
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    Most people in this thread weren't asking for more DPS or lower APM though. They were asking for something that didn't fail due to poor design, such as losing charges on environmental interaction, or an attack in the sequence going missing without any visual indication of which one. In fact, finishing moves would be MUCH less frustrating if they removed cooldowns for the standard moves (regardless of rank), which is higher APM. That way you can at least finish the combo quickly enough to avoid most of the problems above. Monk combos, especially at low levels when you need to save up charges over several enemies, are just super fragile.

    EDIT: Digging around, the wiki has a long list of things that can break monk combos: https://ddowiki.com/page/Finishing_Moves
    Many issues have also previously been raised on the forums, see JINGs thread from here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-and-Abilities
    Apparently the finishing moves also have semi-hidden individual cooldowns that also cause inexplicable failures.

    droid327: That sounds interesting, but perhaps too much development work. Maybe just removal of cooldowns for current moves and some slight tweaks would be close enough?
    People were asking for lower APM. They couch this in terms of one thing, but this is what they mean. Re: bard/barbarian discussions.

    I agree that monks should be able to take other actions without losing their progress in building up a charge of a specific ability, or losing the actual charge if built, but lets not kid ourselves about what is being asked for. The OP clearly complains about how many steps the big attacks take.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-01-2020 at 04:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

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