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  1. #1
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    Default Biggest problem with monks in 2 statements

    Every time I try monk, I delete it before level 5.

    1.) Monk's big hitter is the 'finishing move' You have to build up KI, not open doors or
    ANYTHING or you have to start over. Then when you finally get enough, you attack
    X number of times, AND FINALLY you get to make your big move.
    Either you miss (nothing) or most likely they resist (nothing) or it sticks ... some minor effect.

    2.) ANY class that splashes 1 level of Sorc or wiz, spend >> 1 pt << on EK
    Free cleave, rarely misses anything, +1 W dam AND 1-2 force damage per character level. just click the power once.

    Why would anyone want a monk? Their game mechanics are old, complicated, and weak.
    CRAFTING A MAGIC ITEM HAS LESS STEPS THEN THE BIG MONK ATTACK. let that sink in.

    A possible fix, make the finishing move a toggle that is choosen by the player ahead of time that
    periodically triggers on it's own and actually does something useful. Also trash mobs should RARELY resist it.

    A monk SHOULD be allowed to put down their big hits
    as easily as any other class.

    PEACE
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  2. #2
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    Disclaimer: It's been about two years since I've played a monk. Since then, the only major change to the class or enhancement line has been the removal of unarmed weapon dice that scale with monk level.

    1) I would agree with you had I used anything other than Fists of Light -> Healing Ki, especially during heroics. Without high-end crafted or farmed gear, battles were exciting because I was doing my darndest to stay alive. Every now and then I'd mix in one of the special elemental strikes (eg Fists of Iron) but would immediately go back to my Fists of Light in time for the next combo. Maybe I should just L2P, or maybe it's not just me

    2) Cleaves aren't really in a great place right now. They're useful in early to mid-heroics, at which point the 1-2 force damage per level won't amount to much. This may be an exception for THF folks, but these days a lot of those are *already* Wizards. THF used to be the heroic leveling meta (or at least appeared to be on Argo) a few years back, but nowadays most of the THF I see is near cap, at which point the 1 Wiz/Sorc splash is suboptimal.

    Personally, the appeal of monks for me is:
    a) their variety of special attacks (elemental fist attacks, stunning, banishing, etc)
    b) the self- and group-heals based on something other than spell points (novelty more than anything else)
    c) unarmed TWF speed
    d) not that I've tried it, but Falconry + Shintao = amazing tactical DCs, which as a semi-casual player I often struggle with

    Regardless, I'd vote for a finisher toggle

  3. #3
    Community Member Symbiont's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    A possible fix, make the finishing move a toggle that is choosen by the player ahead of time that
    periodically triggers on it's own and actually does something useful. Also trash mobs should RARELY resist it.

    A monk SHOULD be allowed to put down their big hits
    as easily as any other class.
    While the monk archetype as a whole does have some amount of hinderances in current content, the prevalent issues are not what you're indicating in this post. Monk finishers revolving around the path of inevitable dominion are among the strongest attacks that exist in the game. On any endgame monk with an Enhanced Ki +3 item, you are able to generate more ki on hit than you would expend to use a monk ki attack - every single attack can be a special attack, and you would still maintain a surplus of excess ki. Finishers are also not difficult to use in the scope of endgame. Finishers require four attacks and four hotkeys - with haste boost active, you can land an entire combo and finisher in two seconds. On the subject of finishers, the amount of utility and damage offered from them is invaluable:

    Karmic Strike is a guaranteed critical hit strike that is similar to kensei's Deadly Strike and half-orc's Raging Crush. They have 30 second cooldowns, but Karmic Strike has a six second cooldown. This attack alone helps offset the static 17-20 x3 critical profile that shintao monks are maximized to benefit from, and is incredibly formidable if you can simply press four buttons.

    Pain Touch is among the best reaper CC abilities in the game. It forces anything that isn't a doom reaper to sit and stare at your party for an entire minute. This, like the other finishers, can be used every six seconds. Sure, relative inevitable dominion finishers share a universal cooldown based on the time it takes for your dark strike to recharge, but a part of playing the class optimally is deciding which finisher can circumvent the situation that could most likely cause a party death.

    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    Why would anyone want a monk? Their game mechanics are old, complicated, and weak.
    CRAFTING A MAGIC ITEM HAS LESS STEPS THEN THE BIG MONK ATTACK. let that sink in.
    So, why would anyone want a monk? The abilities that monk has access to within its tree: Jade Strike, to amplify incoming physical damage from your entire party by 20% - Knock on the Sky, to reduce incoming boss physical damage by 20% - and relative henshin elemental strikes, to amplify incoming damage from the two most viable elements by 10% - are exclusive benefits for your entire party that can only be slotted by fielding a monk. Conjoin these utilities with an instakill every six seconds, abundant step and dodge to escape mob hitboxes and catacorner, and universally high defensive attributes, you have a character that can surgically execute almost every encounter.

    The actual reason for monk's apparent lack of viability is their MRR cap of 90, after you sacrifice some degree of filigrees to get there in the first place - while endgame content heavily endorses the fielding of high-MRR builds.
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  4. #4
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    so how many key strokes does it take for any other class to put down their biggest attack ?

    Inq. 2 keystrokes (shoot 1st then ask questions set)
    Everyone else - 1 keystroke

    I am not saying all monks attacks are bad...I am saying they are overly complicated to use.
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  5. #5
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    it was turned into 3 cookie cutters, then instead of fixing a cross system balance issue at 30, the class was zealously nerfed.

  6. #6
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Ki is outdated; it's from an era of DDO where not many 'clicky attacks' existed and thus monks required a resource to use them. No other physical class has an equivalent to ki and yet they all have plenty of attacks that have no cost and work only on cooldown. There's a few exceptional ones (like smite evil or action boosts) but no other class has this crutch.

    Sadly, I feel like it's too late in the game to re-imagine ki for monks. We're stuck with an outdated system.

    I don't mind the combo/finisher system, as it adds flavor, but dear gods, can we please remove the 'don't touch anything or you'll lose focus' nonsense?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Ki is outdated; it's from an era of DDO where not many 'clicky attacks' existed and thus monks required a resource to use them. No other physical class has an equivalent to ki and yet they all have plenty of attacks that have no cost and work only on cooldown. There's a few exceptional ones (like smite evil or action boosts) but no other class has this crutch.

    Sadly, I feel like it's too late in the game to re-imagine ki for monks. We're stuck with an outdated system.

    I don't mind the combo/finisher system, as it adds flavor, but dear gods, can we please remove the 'don't touch anything or you'll lose focus' nonsense?
    Yeah, the finishing moves are extremely impractical in their current form. Anything that could help QoL for ki attacks, like auto-cast on finishing moves or making charges less fickle would be good. Frankly, the ki attacks are pretty slow and clunky in general. The same goes for the Henshin stuff, e.g. the Ki Bolt animation is so slow it wouldn't be worth using even if it did decent damage.

    Also, attacking from stealth has a super annoying delay on unarmed attacks. If it's not fixable, please just remove that entire special animation.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 12-28-2019 at 06:59 PM.

  8. #8
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    Yeah, the finishing moves are extremely impractical in their current form. Anything that could help QoL for ki attacks, like auto-cast on finishing moves or making charges less fickle would be good. Frankly, the ki attacks are pretty slow and clunky in general. The same goes for the Henshin stuff, e.g. the Ki Bolt animation is so slow it wouldn't be worth using even if it did decent damage.

    Also, attacking from stealth has a super annoying delay on unarmed attacks. If it's not fixable, please just remove that entire special animation.
    Henshin's ki attacks, in general, are nothing but fluff with no practical use. The only one that is remotely useful is the cauldron. Henshin is pretty much a weak quarterstaff tree with a few flavor abilities thrown in. I am completely, utterly disappointed in the way it turned out.
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  9. #9
    Community Member Letrii's Avatar
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    My problem is having no clue what my real damage dice is for unarmed attacks.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Mofus's Avatar
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    Monks are pretty decent for survivability. Yes the attack combos can be a pain, but over all, they are still pretty decent for a melee toon. When I was on the hardcore server, the monk was my first toon, it made it to level 20 with no real issues. Others I tried weren't so successful. But that being said, It would be nice to see the monk class get some changes. And even if they don't, I still like the ones I have.
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  11. #11
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    If I was in charge, and I am not....

    Finishing move would be a toggle that goes off under prescribed situations (depending on what finishing move you choose)
    The trigger to set it off would fit the finisher. (no point in an AOE heal going off if nobody is hurt, etc.)

    Ki would have zero to do with powering moves, it would be like a meter that goes up when your fighting and
    slowly goes down when your not. (nothing short of being uncentered would dump your KI meter so opening doors are fine.)
    It's purpose would be simple, the higher the meter is, your monk attacks get a passive buff based on it's current level.
    Higher level monks have bigger meters with higher possible buffs, if your meter is pegged, you glow (cosmetic nod to earlier system)

    Various monk Enh. trees can tie into the meter for added buffs based on the tree.

    The 'forms' would operate like a Sorc tree
    Choose fire, water, earth, ice or balance. as you advance the forms (advanced with feats) they get progressively
    stronger in that element to include some minor boosts to throwing spells from that element. Like wise the opposite element gets weaker.
    Balance brings up all element but only half as strong, but no down side.

    Everything else would basically be the same. (slow fall...etc.)

    my take on a remake of monk
    that is just me.
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  12. #12
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    Two statements? Here it is in two words...

    No crossbows

  13. #13
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    nope, none that I can find.
    unless you can find some odd named xbow that is considered a bow or some odd exception
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  14. #14
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    ok, KINDA....

    >UNTESTED<

    If your just want to do this to freak out party members as a monk.

    Assuming you have the feat so bows are centering you
    MIGHT <<<---- be able to use a glamered xbow (cosmetic) to make your bow LOOK and SOUND like an xbow

    UNTESTED
    UNTESTED
    UNTESTED

    ok, don't scream if it doesn't work...if you have a monk and a disposable mirror, might be fun to try
    doubt is would work for repeaters though

    SORRY DOES NOT WORK
    Well no xbows for you monks !
    Last edited by fatherpirate; 12-31-2019 at 12:18 AM.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    If I was in charge, and I am not....

    Finishing move would be a toggle that goes off under prescribed situations (depending on what finishing move you choose)
    The trigger to set it off would fit the finisher. (no point in an AOE heal going off if nobody is hurt, etc.)

    Ki would have zero to do with powering moves, it would be like a meter that goes up when your fighting and
    slowly goes down when your not. (nothing short of being uncentered would dump your KI meter so opening doors are fine.)
    It's purpose would be simple, the higher the meter is, your monk attacks get a passive buff based on it's current level.
    Higher level monks have bigger meters with higher possible buffs, if your meter is pegged, you glow (cosmetic nod to earlier system)

    Various monk Enh. trees can tie into the meter for added buffs based on the tree.

    The 'forms' would operate like a Sorc tree
    Choose fire, water, earth, ice or balance. as you advance the forms (advanced with feats) they get progressively
    stronger in that element to include some minor boosts to throwing spells from that element. Like wise the opposite element gets weaker.
    Balance brings up all element but only half as strong, but no down side.

    Everything else would basically be the same. (slow fall...etc.)

    my take on a remake of monk
    that is just me.
    I see as only actual problem of monks the mrr cap at 50, that is really painful when u have many spell without save roll, especially in leg raids.

    They should rediscuss mrr cap.

    Monks attacks are nice and made them unique.
    So i like them. I dont want all toon one button pew pew like inqui.
    If monk is too complicated barb is a good option.
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  16. #16
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    Some people like the melee Monk play style. It is different than other melees and significantly more powerful if you can master the progressions and options involved and gear up appropriately.

    It has a challenging early game as a melee but it scales into the late game better than a lot of other melee archetypes.

    Fix X class so it is as good as Y class is usually a fail because Y is a moving target and X had real strengths at different points that Y now wants as compensation for X getting "fixed".

  17. #17
    Community Member hp1055cm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    Every time I try monk, I delete it before level 5.
    So play another class and quit spamming the forums with whine.

    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    1.) Monk's big hitter is the 'finishing move' You have to build up KI, not open doors or
    ANYTHING or you have to start over. Then when you finally get enough, you attack
    X number of times, AND FINALLY you get to make your big move.
    Either you miss (nothing) or most likely they resist (nothing) or it sticks ... some minor effect.
    Some require Ki, some have to be built up. 3 is a hard number for people bad at math.
    There are a lot of Ki attacks, most of which are entirely optional. Some are useful, others not so much.
    You don't have to use them all...
    Managing Ki is not difficult unless you like playing on auto-easy all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    2.) ANY class that splashes 1 level of Sorc or wiz, spend >> 1 pt << on EK
    Free cleave, rarely misses anything, +1 W dam AND 1-2 force damage per character level. just click the power once.
    Whirlwind Attack is much better than Cleave and you only have to click once... plus it doesn't use ki.

    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    Why would anyone want a monk? Their game mechanics are old, complicated, and weak.
    CRAFTING A MAGIC ITEM HAS LESS STEPS THEN THE BIG MONK ATTACK. let that sink in.
    ? Maybe you should be asking for advice on how to play a monk better - you obviously don't know much.


    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    A possible fix, make the finishing move a toggle that is choosen by the player ahead of time that
    periodically triggers on it's own and actually does something useful. Also trash mobs should RARELY resist it.

    A monk SHOULD be allowed to put down their big hits
    as easily as any other class.
    What other class has Jade strike or uses Stunning fist so well?
    The unique aspects of a monk is what makes it so appealing; it doesn't need to be more like other melee classes...

    If YOU don't like monk then play a different class.
    Playing a monk is easy once you understand its strengths and in my experience is the best melee for leveling and low-to-mid reaper.
    In epics you can add several more non-ki attacks, better healing and Mass frog or Dire charge.
    GOF is a better destiny since the update and makes you viable in most content.

    Monk is fine, move on and go complain about something else you know almost nothing about.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm
    Makes me think that other post was your sock account.

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous
    Incorrect. Post reported.

  18. #18
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    so how many key strokes does it take for any other class to put down their biggest attack ?

    Inq. 2 keystrokes (shoot 1st then ask questions set)
    Everyone else - 1 keystroke

    I am not saying all monks attacks are bad...I am saying they are overly complicated to use.
    These DPS video tests that get linked in nerf discussions show quite a bit of clicking boosts and buffs before the first hit is ever swung or the first shot ever fired.

    Example: Even approaching max DPS kensai requires knowing the rotation order of attacks to use. Most people believe (incorrectly) that its terribad because they approach it the same way they approach playing a low skill floor recent release of premium tier character power rather than learn the ins and outs of the build.

    Im fine with some classes being higher skill floor than others. There should be a lower and higher skill floor in each archetype, with most others being in the middle. What ForumDDO™ accomplished by demanding nerfs was to ensure a higher skill floor class was trimmed down in damage dice throughout its leveling arc when it only really maxed out at the height of that arc in the first place (levels 29 and 30). Its not a surprise then, that the next premium tier character power sold was that much better, and that much easier to play.

    There is a significant history of ForumDDO™ complaints of APM being too high in DDO for specific class/builds, when in fact it is quite low compared to other examples in (and out of) the same genre. Dont ever play another MMO where endgame rotations need to be learned, and the entire RTS genre is also off limits with this mindset.
    Last edited by Chai; 12-29-2019 at 09:14 AM.
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  19. #19

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    I like all the crazy monk combos

    I think the standard elemental attacks ought to be a toggle though like EK and not use ki. You can still do Grasp the Earth with Fist of Iron combo or have them as optional active attacks. By the time you ate in Destinies there are an insane number of active attacks and the elemental ones do nor scale—sure Earth is straight damage but with cooldown is it worth it?

    Monk levels ought to boost MRR cap—tie it to places where run speed goes up
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    These DPS video tests that get linked in nerf discussions show quite a bit of clicking boosts and buffs before the first hit is ever swung or the first shot ever fired.

    Example: Even approaching max DPS kensai requires knowing the rotation order of attacks to use. Most people believe (incorrectly) that its terribad because they approach it the same way they approach playing a low skill floor recent release of premium tier character power rather than learn the ins and outs of the build.

    Im fine with some classes being higher skill floor than others. There should be a lower and higher skill floor in each archetype, with most others being in the middle. What ForumDDO™ accomplished by demanding nerfs was to ensure a higher skill floor class was trimmed down in damage dice throughout its leveling arc when it only really maxed out at the height of that arc in the first place (levels 29 and 30). Its not a surprise then, that the next premium tier character power sold was that much better, and that much easier to play.
    Not everything is about DPS though, the OP was complaining that the monk finishing moves were just too clunky to use. DPS-wise monks are probably OK, but that is a separate discussion. Except for WW, gameplay-wise, most of the monk special attacks are a dumpster fire. I would say most people just spam FoL and some stunning fist, hoping they can manage to activate a Healing Ki once in a while. The monk combo system lacks modern visual indicators of the charges, which is compounded by lag, misses and frequent resets from non-combat actions. I'm not sure if there even is an in-game guide to how it is supposed to work.

    In light of that, making the finishing move auto-cast when available, *or* putting in some visual indicators and maybe allowing finishing moves to cast if you just have the right sequence in there somewhere (even with other moves in-between) would make monk a lot less painful to play. Perhaps we would actually see some dark monks for once.

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