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  1. #1
    Community Member Jaysun's Avatar
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    Default Was excited to come back..but the wall is real

    So I am still going to play, so please don't think otherwise BUT....I thought about giving up ..like 6 times in the past two days. So I am sure there are many that want to come back but soon as they realize if they want to play "endgame" content with high level reaper or elite raids..that it will take MONTHS of work to not be anything more then dead weight. The system is really broken and while I say I am going to play...we will see how I feel in a week.

    In most MMO's there is a catch up that is required but it is normally...levels...gear...maybe a key or flag...and then it's raiding. In DDO..since I left they have added 42 racial passlives, 12 more epic passlives, and 6? more Iconic passlives. While I know that they arent all needed, the gap between someone who has most of them and someone starting is insane. If I was maxxed out and played reaper 8-10 all the time and one of my friends decided he wanted to come play with me...a skilled player..and I told him...hey thats great but to be of any use you have to do atleast XX # of pastlives before you can come do the hard content. They would be like...ok NM then. Or its the opposite way, where the max player has to do trival content to help their friend catch up. There is burnout both ways. What is sad though is that there is NO real way to find out WHAT you like in this game without devoting a lot of time to it. What if you started as a caster and then when you finally got into your first raid...you didn't like your role of a controller? But thought tanking looked really fun in raids. Now whatever work you put into your character to maximize your caster...is barely useable for a tank that focuses on different past lives. Without DC's, spell pen, PRR you are basically only useable in R 1-4 before you just become a burden....and that isn't even counting the reaper experience someone has to farm on TOP of the passlives. Healer IMO is the only spec that can be "useful" with lower requirements but the amount of people who enjoy healing is drastically lower then DPS (tanks are about even).

    Few other points...No one likes being carried...knowing they are barely helping.
    I can't imagine how raid guilds are in this game. Hey guys raids every Wed/Sunday. "Sorry they released more passlives I am going to be focused on that for the next month". Ok...we will have to pug your spot till you return.

    These were just random thoughts but honestly I realized that I was excited two days ago and today I was less motivated to log on...I self-reflected and realized why. Figured I would drop it on paper because I know I am not the only one that gets this way with DDO.

    Really hope they figure something out to fix this but since OTTO boxes are cash cows for them...I have my doubts.

    But I know there have been a lot of suggestions on how to do this...I'll throw one in the hat that I thought about as I was writting this.

    If you are a subscriber...you can choose between the 500 DDO points for the month or an Otto's experience stone (just the stone). This way you can get 1 free racial or heroic pastlive a month. It's not ground breaking but it gives you something to look forward to at the end of the month. Would also motivate some F2P players to subscribe (alts ect). Also make people want to stay subbed in..and open the cash shop to more hearts of wood/blood ect.

    Anyhow. Back to the grind because I really want to meet some friends to raid with.

  2. #2
    Community Member Sythe777's Avatar
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    Can't say that I agree. I came back to the game back in May/June, fresh to a server. Since then, I've gotten 3 racial, 1 heroic, and 4 epic pastlives, all my BiS gear that I need at specific levels from 1-30, a great guild, several well-known, well-skilled players as friends, and 30 reaper points. I was gone since 2014/2015 when racial PLs, reaper, and 30 wasn't a thing. Now, did I need those PLs and reaper points? Not necessarily. For one, both are meant to be a source of long-term progression so people don't sit at cap (which I agree with). For another, in my experience, they aren't significantly challenging to acquire. Was it hard in the first week or two? Of course, but that's just learning a game, and I suspect it would take a similar amount of time for any other game with the same set of circumstances.

    Now, in terms of fun, everyone has their own definition. Some like the challenge, others like the story, some enjoy the progression, and etc. Generally, if you're playing for the challenge, then you're on the grind; however, it's not a requirement to grind in order to be challenged. If you're getting burnt out by the grind, then take a break, no one is forcing you to play all day, every day of the week.
    Argonesson: Taliimara

  3. #3
    Community Member Nyata's Avatar
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    first off: welcome back

    second: you are right. the hill is steep. I am a couple years into the game and still consider myself a flower sniffer. and when they released racial past lifes, I pretty much decided to not even try to catch up. thing is though... it is the only online rpg I actually like. for an abundancy of reasons i burn out on any other game I try real quick. either it's monotony of quests, daily 'chores', restrictive guild policies or whatever.

    So my advice is: do not focus so much on what is ahead of you, but focus on what you enjoy about DDo right now, or rather on what makes you come back to the game. really cannot imagine it's endgame reaper 10 raid survivability, because DDO has never really been about end game, has it

  4. #4
    Community Member Jaysun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sythe777 View Post
    Can't say that I agree. I came back to the game back in May/June, fresh to a server. Since then, I've gotten 3 racial, 1 heroic, and 4 epic pastlives, all my BiS gear that I need at specific levels from 1-30, a great guild, several well-known, well-skilled players as friends, and 30 reaper points. I was gone since 2014/2015 when racial PLs, reaper, and 30 wasn't a thing. Now, did I need those PLs and reaper points? Not necessarily. For one, both are meant to be a source of long-term progression so people don't sit at cap (which I agree with). For another, in my experience, they aren't significantly challenging to acquire. Was it hard in the first week or two? Of course, but that's just learning a game, and I suspect it would take a similar amount of time for any other game with the same set of circumstances.

    Now, in terms of fun, everyone has their own definition. Some like the challenge, others like the story, some enjoy the progression, and etc. Generally, if you're playing for the challenge, then you're on the grind; however, it's not a requirement to grind in order to be challenged. If you're getting burnt out by the grind, then take a break, no one is forcing you to play all day, every day of the week.
    I agree that people have different levels of fun. That is what has kept the game around as people like just doing things no normal-elite and don't even touch reaper. Some just like the old school fell and that the majority of players are mature here. Mind me asking what class/spec do you play and do you raid on a schedule or just pug? You have done good since June for sure literally leveling 6-8 times and that is what many people enjoy.

    Sadly for me I enjoy raiding. But knowing that I can perform so much better to push the next level of content for a challenge...but it requires me to hamster wheel the pastlives is just disappointing. The amount of past lives in this game is no longer new player friendly. Yes if I did this over the past 10 years at a realstic pace then this would be perfect, but if you take any short of break you can't make up the time putting in some hardwork...thats my issue.

    Ill use any MMO for example...SWTOR or Everquest. If a new expansion drops...you only need to get to max level...get the current raids/group content flags/quest done...and then the new dungeon gear to be "raid ready". In this game..for you to conquer the best of the best...you need to complete leveling content that was released 6 years ago. Maybe if you are a healer or support class you can get by with less but if you want to "tank" or "caster" you aren't landing anything without the DC's, spell pen, racial PL's for ability points or you arent going to last long without all those extra HP/PPR's/healing amps that are needed in R10 or Reaper level for raids. Can it be done...yes...but for me...I don't feel good knowing I am being carried but I also don't feel good doing things on Normal or Hard because the amount of work it takes to get caught up for R10 content is just ...taxing. But that is mainly because my playstyle of fun is being the best and beating the best. Dont get me wrong playing with fun people is what keeps me around longterm but I need both..challenge and friends to call it home.

  5. #5
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    I definitely agree with your point, and it's even worse for first-lifers. However, since you want to play at cap, the gap is theoretically smallest there since gear bonus outstrips the rest at that point (albeit groups may be pickier)

    I would say the essentials are:
    -Melee need HP, mainly from RPs
    -Casters need some DCs/spell pen, from PLs and/or RPs.

    RPs are probably easiest to get at cap also.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 12-04-2019 at 09:18 PM.

  6. #6
    Community Member count_spicoli's Avatar
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    Im not sure what your saying here. You want to log in and be as good as the dude who has played this game for 10 years straight with no breaks. Does anyone want to earn anything in society anymore or just be spoon fed? IF you want to compete in the high skull reaper raids do your time. Otherwise puggin r1 quests or running those with guildies is an option. Or just run inquisitive and you will out play a melee who has 100 past lives and full reaper points.
    Khyber IN BAD COMPANY Longand Drunkmage Sexyheals Fullforce

  7. #7
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    There's no content you can't do on a first life character. Past lives do make you stronger, but they actually matter the least at cap.

    I would recommend parking one character at cap on a build you like (and isn't highly dependent on certain PLs) right now. I think you'll find when you learn the content, fine tune your skills, build, and gear, and pick up a few reaper points that you'll be very effective in all content and all difficulties. Yeah, there will be uber completionists out there that are stronger than you, but it's not a competition and there's plenty of room in good groups for quality players without all that. Frankly if your "friends" won't let you raid with them unless you have X past lives then they're probably not people that are going to be much fun to play with anyway.

    At the same time you can slowly start building up some past lives on a second character. At some point swap the characters out and you'll have a guy with some PLs to play at cap while you develop the other one all the while getting to engage in the endgame scene.
    Sabbath - Sarlona

  8. #8
    Community Member Jaysun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by count_spicoli View Post
    Im not sure what your saying here. You want to log in and be as good as the dude who has played this game for 10 years straight with no breaks. Does anyone want to earn anything in society anymore or just be spoon fed? IF you want to compete in the high skull reaper raids do your time. Otherwise puggin r1 quests or running those with guildies is an option. Or just run inquisitive and you will out play a melee who has 100 past lives and full reaper points.
    I have three tours in Iraq/Afghan and spent 10 years as a cop in a major city. I know what it means to earn stuff and put in work. (I only say this because you took my post and just made a lot of MASSIVE assumptions) I have over 25 past lives already...my point was I came back to the game and they added racial TR's, 2 more iconic races, and 1 tree to each of the epic past lives (45 more TR's)....AND reaper. I am sitting at 13 reaper points right now. I have a LONG way to go still to get to challenging reaper content because if I join a in progress reaper group that is say reaper 3....there are 1-3 plays that can do them in their sleep and I am just being carried. But if I joined reaper 6+ I am just dead the entire time. I also said that I am putting in the work...but there HAS to be a better way for SSG to close the gap because for every play like me WILLING to put in the work, there are more that won't even try. That benefits NO ONE, just makes the servers less populated.
    Last edited by Jaysun; 12-04-2019 at 10:31 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysun View Post
    I have three tours in Iraq/Afghan and spent 10 years as a cop in a major city.
    Hey, I'm a former Marine, just came back from 2013, and I know exactly what you mean. You want to be part of a tightly knit group, but not jump through 36 hoops to get there.

    I found a guild (lvl 178) on Ghallanda full of casual no drama types, we do raids and stuff but we have lots of new players and no one cares about the TR Hamster Wheel. You'll contribute, you won't be carried.

    PM me if you are interested and I'll put you in touch with an officer.

    Cheers
    Fen
    Last edited by Fenrisulven7; 12-05-2019 at 12:04 AM.

  10. #10
    Community Member hp1055cm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysun View Post
    So I am still going to play, so please don't think otherwise BUT....

    Really hope they figure something out to fix this but since OTTO boxes are cash cows for them...I have my doubts.

    Anyhow. Back to the grind because I really want to meet some friends to raid with.
    Sweet! Welcome (back?). You have the ideal attitude of the DDO archetype that the game is infamous for.

    Usually it takes years for people to reach your level of cynicism, but you, wow, you have it just walking in the door.
    And straight to the forums... impressive.

    You are gonna fit right in.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm
    Makes me think that other post was your sock account.

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous
    Incorrect. Post reported.

  11. #11
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Yes, the wall is real. I have never left the game, but I have had to abandon many of my alts, because it is currently impossible to keep them up to date. And like me, lots of people. There are many people in the game who are frustrated with the current state of the alts. Retaining new players when they realize the grind is complicated. And the gap does not help returning players want to stay.

    As I have said many times in this forum, if SSG does not want to move to account-based systems in my opinion they should:
    1- reverse the reward of racial lives 1 and 3. A free complecionist feat is worth all useless third lives, but frontload systems help to reduce the gap
    2- give a heroic + racial life together
    3-let ETR when the kharma of the sphere is complete, even if it is not in the cap (the timer of the ETR should be maintained)

    I would say leave the rpx for the moment as it is. Although it is a long grind, the changes that have been made to the rpx recently help alts and new players quite a bit to get a small cushion of points to get into the reaper end game. This change- -- well done, SSG. Now see the PL problem.

    The previous three changes would greatly help not only alts, but also new players. And veteran players would still have the possibility of developing new alts and working in the rpx of all them.

    Quite simply, today the grind for a single toon is too long. I agree that in all games the old grinds are shortened when new ones are introduced, and that has not been done in ddo
    Last edited by Iriale; 12-05-2019 at 04:30 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  12. #12
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    I personally only have a grudge against Racial TR, because the action points are back loaded and add up to an extremely large power gap. Character builds are made possible with the extra action points that scale absurdly.

    Personally, I would readily accept the harder solution to let level 30 endgame characters access means to acquire the Race APs, maybe a special type of challenges or raids, or something interesting that doesnt make us repeat the same 2 instances 9 billion times. There is always the easy solution to swap the T1<->T3 Race PL bonuses.

  13. #13
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    I personally only have a grudge against Racial TR, because the action points are back loaded and add up to an extremely large power gap. Character builds are made possible with the extra action points that scale absurdly.

    Personally, I would readily accept the harder solution to let level 30 endgame characters access means to acquire the Race APs, maybe a special type of challenges or raids, or something interesting that doesnt make us repeat the same 2 instances 9 billion times. There is always the easy solution to swap the T1<->T3 Race PL bonuses.
    Yes. this is the worst. Points 1 and 2 that I indicate are the ones that would most help new players and alts, because the racial system is currently poorly designed, although allowing faster etrs would help new toons acquire a few epic lives that greatly help the survival. Anyway, once you have a few epic lives, the most efficient thing is to go up to the cap to get rpx, so in the long run it wouldn't change much, but it would help with those first crucial lives.

    I would love that they had designed a system of progression that did not imply reincarnation instead of racial lives (although if we talk about concepts, there is nothing more ridiculous than epic reincarnation --- kharma game should be something to get in the cap, epic game, not a stupid extra reincarnation system), but I fear that SSG is not about being creative, but about lengthening the grind quickly and with little effort. And then sell us xp pots, ottos, call of destiny pots, etc., to mitigate the grind heh
    Last edited by Iriale; 12-05-2019 at 05:27 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  14. #14
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysun View Post
    So I am still going to play, so please don't think otherwise BUT....I thought about giving up ..like 6 times in the past two days. So I am sure there are many that want to come back but soon as they realize if they want to play "endgame" content with high level reaper or elite raids..that it will take MONTHS of work to not be anything more then dead weight. The system is really broken and while I say I am going to play...we will see how I feel in a week.
    I realize I don't represent other players and may have a very different mindset. I have about 10 characters all different and at different stages as I've chosen not to "get it all" on one character so I focus different times on different characters.

    Mind you 3 of those characters are members of static groups, one of which never goes beyond First Life as we reroll as part of G.I.M.P.

    I often see people refer to themselves as "dead weight" when comparing their contribution. However, very few offer what that means such as what metric they are using.

    1. Their # of Kills (very bad measure)
    2. Their # of Deaths (Usually an indication that their playstyle either does not synergize with the group they are in or does not work for the encounter such that if you are a hammer not every problem is a nail)
    3. Their visible HP (the larger the pool the more flexibility you have, however, if you don't use them wisely it doesn't matter how many HP you have)
    4. Effective Difficulty checks - How often a tactical ability or spell works
    5. DPS measure - Hearing someone just nailed a mob for 1 million damage on Reaper 8 and you are barely cracking 1k (remember that sometimes this is just like a good fishing story, that fish gets bigger with each telling)

    You need to find what works for you, for your build but it doesn't take months to get ready. Evaluate after each run what you did well and what didn't go well, then make adjustments. At Cap there are several gear alternatives that can be achieved. Don't disregard crafting systems, augments, sentient or even Challenge crafting.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Yes, the wall is real. I have never left the game, but I have had to abandon many of my alts, because it is currently impossible to keep them up to date. And like me, lots of people. There are many people in the game who are frustrated with the current state of the alts. Retaining new players when they realize the grind is complicated. And the gap does not help returning players want to stay.

    As I have said many times in this forum, if SSG does not want to move to account-based systems in my opinion they should:
    1- reverse the reward of racial lives 1 and 3. A free complecionist feat is worth all useless third lives, but frontload systems help to reduce the gap
    2- give a heroic + racial life together
    3-let ETR when the kharma of the sphere is complete, even if it is not in the cap (the timer of the ETR should be maintained)

    I would say leave the rpx for the moment as it is. Although it is a long grind, the changes that have been made to the rpx recently help alts and new players quite a bit to get a small cushion of points to get into the reaper end game. This change- -- well done, SSG. Now see the PL problem.

    The previous three changes would greatly help not only alts, but also new players. And veteran players would still have the possibility of developing new alts and working in the rpx of all them.

    Quite simply, today the grind for a single toon is too long. I agree that in all games the old grinds are shortened when new ones are introduced, and that has not been done in ddo
    This would go a long way to letting people catch up.
    1. Yup, just obvious to everyone.
    2. Also, obvious. Many assumed it would be this way. I can only assume they didn't do it that way to avoid long term player butthurt: "I didn't get it when I did it, they shouldn't either."
    3. Epic past lives are the worst. I think it has more to do with the lack of variety in epic content compared to heroics, but whatever the reason it's the worst. Being able to use karma without a level requirement would let you fill all 4 spheres on a trip 20-30 spending most of the time at cap and getting 4 pls, that would be great.

    I also would like to see the heroic exp adjusted for low past life characters. 100%/150%/200%/200%/200%... might as well just be the same every life, though it is good to have a small boost for a first/second life. Getting 10-15 lives before there is a notable increase would be good. My personal pitch is every past life adds about 1 to 1.5% to the required exp, With well over 100 lives now that means the "have it alls" need a healthy grind, but the minimalists stay close to first life requirements. (Though I could see not changing the exp reqs if you reward racial/heroic together)
    Last edited by Cantor; 12-05-2019 at 08:29 AM.

  16. #16
    Community Member Visty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaysun View Post
    .hey thats great but to be of any use you have to do atleast XX # of pastlives before you can come do the hard content.
    so you blame your "friends" beeing gatekeeping pricks on the devs?
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  17. #17
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post

    1- reverse the reward of racial lives 1 and 3. A free complecionist feat is worth all useless third lives, but frontload systems help to reduce the gap
    I'm not a fan of the backloaded RPLs, and this would have been a better design from the begining, but I don't know about changing it now. I suppose better late than never, but be ready for a lot of annoyed people when a bunch of the grind they did seems less valuable.

    2- give a heroic + racial life together
    No. Having lots of optional grind is good. The problem is how much power is being given out (particularly in later stages), not that they have lots of stuff for grinders to do.

    3-let ETR when the kharma of the sphere is complete, even if it is not in the cap (the timer of the ETR should be maintained)
    I'm torn on this one. It think it was BS to increase how much an ETR costs, but I also like the fact that serial TRs do leave a little time around cap to play legendary stuff. Everyone TRing when they hit 28 would mean missing out on some of the most fun (IMO) part of the game. I'd rather just readjust epic XP so that 20-30 costs 6M XP.
    Sabbath - Sarlona

  18. #18
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    First off, welcome back!

    Secondly, yes past lives make you better, but no they are not required for most builds.

    Everyone seems to already have forgotten about the hardcore server that just ended, in which EVERYONE started fresh with 28 point builds, 0 past lives, 0 gear, and 0 reaper points. Yet with all the 'handicaps' of a new player, many were able to earn hundreds of thousands of reaper xp, make it to level 20 and beyond, and earn over 5000 favor (which means doing almost every quest on elite+). All of this was done without dying a single time.

    If you are having problems staying alive/contributing/etc., there are almost certainly build/gear/strategy changes that you can make that will bring you up to par. There are very few builds that are heavily past life dependent (DC casters and tanks require the most to be endgame efficient).

    Anyone can roll up an Inquisitive build and contribute. It takes a little more skill and planning, but first life melee builds can work too. If you want to be a caster, knocking out a handful of specific past lives can bring you up to speed relatively quickly (3 wiz, 3 fvs, 4 racial). You don't need 100+ past lives and reaper points, you just need to know what you're doing (as proven by the Hardcore server). This includes understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your build/character.
    Last edited by Fivetigers33; 12-05-2019 at 09:39 AM.
    Stratis on Khyber

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  19. #19
    Community Member OrodelaSol's Avatar
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    Default Millennial thinking...

    So you want to run with the "big dogs" but not have put in all the time and effort (and/or money for some...) they have? What am i missing? They are more powerful/useful because they have earned/bought it. Either do the same and pull your weight or get carried.
    Khyberite

  20. #20
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    Only have 3 racial points, still not class completionist, don't think anyone's said I'm horrible in r10 so far (yet), at least not when I'm playing any form of DPS. Currently doing an aasimar life with cleric so it's not so great... but still it seems being able to pop non-warded wraiths with a turn undead is actually helpful than frogging it and getting a bonus vengeance reaper.

    You don't need absolutely everything as long as you know what you're doing with your game, honestly.
    Very much like my favourite weapon, the quarterstaff, I am a blunt instrument, as are my words.
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