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  1. #1
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    Default Precision 5% to-hit not WAI?

    This stemmed from a little to-hit/AC test I did, because someone brought up that hit chance now is just hit "chance" and the roll didn't mean anything. If you are not clear on how the chance to hit formula works now, the results are on reddit if you're interested and I'll just say I was right and the roll is still relevant.

    More importantly I came across something which was a little unexpected: Precision was not giving me any difference in the chance to hit. My hit/graze threshold did not move the dice roll in either direction with or without it. It also shows no visible change in the to-hit bonus itself. Could the devs confirm if it's just a 5% somewhere in a calculation we cannot see, or if it's actually not contributing to hit chance at all? Or if anyone else has done their own tests to show Precision actually reflecting the 5% to-hit?
    Very much like my favourite weapon, the quarterstaff, I am a blunt instrument, as are my words.
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  2. #2
    Chaotic Evil Mindos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by askrj1 View Post
    This stemmed from a little to-hit/AC test I did, because someone brought up that hit chance now is just hit "chance" and the roll didn't mean anything. If you are not clear on how the chance to hit formula works now, the results are on reddit if you're interested and I'll just say I was right and the roll is still relevant.

    More importantly I came across something which was a little unexpected: Precision was not giving me any difference in the chance to hit. My hit/graze threshold did not move the dice roll in either direction with or without it. It also shows no visible change in the to-hit bonus itself. Could the devs confirm if it's just a 5% somewhere in a calculation we cannot see, or if it's actually not contributing to hit chance at all? Or if anyone else has done their own tests to show Precision actually reflecting the 5% to-hit?
    This seems like something that shoulda showed up on the + stats tab on the character sheet so we wouldn't have to guess.
    Does the bonus number in the Inventory drop down info panel change when it is on or off?


  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindos View Post
    This seems like something that shoulda showed up on the + stats tab on the character sheet so we wouldn't have to guess.
    Does the bonus number in the Inventory drop down info panel change when it is on or off?
    No change at all on the roll/combat log, and no change at all on the displayed to-hit bonus in inventory.
    Very much like my favourite weapon, the quarterstaff, I am a blunt instrument, as are my words.
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  4. #4
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    This is a good question, and probably applies to Elven cores as well.

  5. #5
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    This is out there, I don't have it at hand... but it should add in the same place as the proficiency bonus. It's not a to-hit bonus.


    From the wiki on the "armor class" page:
    "Player's chance to hit: (Player's Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target's Armor Class * 2) + 20% proficiency bonus, rounded to nearest 5%"

    So it should be a straight +1 range of die rolls that hit regardless of to-hit and AC.
    Last edited by Cantor; 12-02-2019 at 09:18 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    This is out there, I don't have it at hand... but it should add in the same place as the proficiency bonus. It's not a to-hit bonus.


    From the wiki on the "armor class" page:
    "Player's chance to hit: (Player's Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target's Armor Class * 2) + 20% proficiency bonus, rounded to nearest 5%"

    So it should be a straight +1 range of die rolls that hit regardless of to-hit and AC.
    It should but it doesn't, at least not within the results I had. I tested between proficient and non-proficent weapons with precision on and off.
    Very much like my favourite weapon, the quarterstaff, I am a blunt instrument, as are my words.
    Thelanis - Striving to be your Swiss Army Knife for DPS, traps and tanking
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by askrj1 View Post
    It should but it doesn't, at least not within the results I had. I tested between proficient and non-proficent weapons with precision on and off.
    Prof and non-prof should be obvious, if that's not showing then it's likely bugged.

    grazing is iffy at best and I could see not being able to tell 5% (if the hit is decided behind the scenes you might not distinguish)... but 20%.
    Last edited by Cantor; 12-02-2019 at 09:37 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    Prof and non-prof should be obvious, if that's not showing then it's likely bugged.

    grazing is iffy at best and I could see not being able to tell 5%... but 20%.
    The 5% intervals are represented on the d20, so if with precision on and off it should shift the d20 threshold for hit/graze by 1. That didn't happen across each set I tested.
    Very much like my favourite weapon, the quarterstaff, I am a blunt instrument, as are my words.
    Thelanis - Striving to be your Swiss Army Knife for DPS, traps and tanking
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  9. #9

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    So, having a look through Precision was interesting.

    Precision and a few other abilities in game alter a set of properties that don't appear in the character sheet currently. They're applied as flat chances after your Attack value is calculated, altering the overall chance to hit against the enemy's defense by the listed percentage.

    This is the method by which Proficiency works, wielding a Proficient weapon boosts this value by 20% (so conversely, you're 20% less likely to hit when you're not proficient with your current weapon). This is working properly.

    Elven cores use this as well, and they are also working properly.

    What isn't working properly are the two abilities that use this method via toggles. When the AC rework was done back around MOTU, two toggles were altered to use this method: Precision and Defensive Fighting. Unfortunately, they were done in a way where, when you have the Feat, the bonus/penalty always applies, even when the Feat isn't toggled on.

    In short:
    • Currently, if you have Precision, the +5% chance to hit is always on, even if the toggle isn't.
    • Currently, if you have Defensive Fighting (and most characters do), the -5% penalty to hit chance is always on, even if the toggle isn't.


    So, that's bad.

    We have a fix for these internally (so that their bonuses and penalties only apply while toggled on, as intended), which we're hoping to get out as soon as we can.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
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    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    In short:
    • Currently, if you have Precision, the +5% chance to hit is always on, even if the toggle isn't.
    • Currently, if you have Defensive Fighting (and most characters do), the -5% penalty to hit chance is always on, even if the toggle isn't.


    So, that's bad.

    We have a fix for these internally (so that their bonuses and penalties only apply while toggled on, as intended), which we're hoping to get out as soon as we can.
    So, after the fix most characters are getting a 5% boost if they don't run with defensive fighting on?

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by guzzlr View Post
    So, after the fix most characters are getting a 5% boost if they don't run with defensive fighting on?
    Yes, relative to what you're currently running around with.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

  12. #12

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    So will the fix include showing it properly on the character sheet or is that still going to be an issue?
    Build a man a fire and he is warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by byzantinebob View Post
    So will the fix include showing it properly on the character sheet or is that still going to be an issue?
    Determining how/where it shows up on the character sheet and then implementing that is a substantially larger task than fixing the bug; it will not be in the patch with the fix.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

  14. #14
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    So, having a look through Precision was interesting.

    Precision and a few other abilities in game alter a set of properties that don't appear in the character sheet currently. They're applied as flat chances after your Attack value is calculated, altering the overall chance to hit against the enemy's defense by the listed percentage.

    This is the method by which Proficiency works, wielding a Proficient weapon boosts this value by 20% (so conversely, you're 20% less likely to hit when you're not proficient with your current weapon). This is working properly.

    Elven cores use this as well, and they are also working properly.

    What isn't working properly are the two abilities that use this method via toggles. When the AC rework was done back around MOTU, two toggles were altered to use this method: Precision and Defensive Fighting. Unfortunately, they were done in a way where, when you have the Feat, the bonus/penalty always applies, even when the Feat isn't toggled on.

    In short:
    • Currently, if you have Precision, the +5% chance to hit is always on, even if the toggle isn't.
    • Currently, if you have Defensive Fighting (and most characters do), the -5% penalty to hit chance is always on, even if the toggle isn't.


    So, that's bad.

    We have a fix for these internally (so that their bonuses and penalties only apply while toggled on, as intended), which we're hoping to get out as soon as we can.
    this is a good thread, and this is a good post

  15. #15
    Community Member ahpook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guzzlr View Post
    So, after the fix most characters are getting a 5% boost if they don't run with defensive fighting on?
    Additionally, until the fix is released, all (non-caster) characters with Defensive fighting should run with it toggled on. You are paying the price, you might as well get the AC boost. If you have precision you may still prefer to toggle that instead of DF to get the fort by pass.
    Last edited by ahpook; 12-02-2019 at 03:31 PM.

  16. #16
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    while looking at feats related to attack, can you take a look at "shoot on the run"

    the shoot on the run feat says I should not loose attack bonuses while running, however i still see the value drop in the inventory drop sheet when moving (usually using crossbows or repeaters)
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    In short: Currently, if you have Precision, the +5% chance to hit is always on, even if the toggle isn't.
    Do I hear golden age where you can get Precision's to-hit bonus AND Power Attack's damage bonuses?
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  18. #18
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    Do I hear golden age where you can get Precision's to-hit bonus AND Power Attack's damage bonuses?
    But always at -5% for defensive fighting. For the last 7 years.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    So, having a look through Precision was interesting.

    Precision and a few other abilities in game alter a set of properties that don't appear in the character sheet currently. They're applied as flat chances after your Attack value is calculated, altering the overall chance to hit against the enemy's defense by the listed percentage.

    This is the method by which Proficiency works, wielding a Proficient weapon boosts this value by 20% (so conversely, you're 20% less likely to hit when you're not proficient with your current weapon). This is working properly.

    Elven cores use this as well, and they are also working properly.

    What isn't working properly are the two abilities that use this method via toggles. When the AC rework was done back around MOTU, two toggles were altered to use this method: Precision and Defensive Fighting. Unfortunately, they were done in a way where, when you have the Feat, the bonus/penalty always applies, even when the Feat isn't toggled on.

    In short:
    • Currently, if you have Precision, the +5% chance to hit is always on, even if the toggle isn't.
    • Currently, if you have Defensive Fighting (and most characters do), the -5% penalty to hit chance is always on, even if the toggle isn't.


    So, that's bad.

    We have a fix for these internally (so that their bonuses and penalties only apply while toggled on, as intended), which we're hoping to get out as soon as we can.
    Thanks for looking into this, so in this case does that mean when that change was put into place, all players were stuck with a 5% penalty unless they took Precision, in which case would have nullified the penalty to show my "normal" roll thresholds in the tests?
    Very much like my favourite weapon, the quarterstaff, I am a blunt instrument, as are my words.
    Thelanis - Striving to be your Swiss Army Knife for DPS, traps and tanking
    Eushully/Sunny Cleric (transient) | Nantekottai/Stuck in TR (again) | Ponoka - Sub.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Determining how/where it shows up on the character sheet and then implementing that is a substantially larger task than fixing the bug; it will not be in the patch with the fix.
    Percentage bonus to hit (add proficiency, defensive fighting, precision, elven accuracy, and more if any? also penalties/debuffs if any)
    Percentage bonus to damage (divine crusader's crusade, relentless fury, warchanter chant of power, adrenaline? ...)

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