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  1. #1
    Community Member snook59's Avatar
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    Default What gives Devs?

    Why am I still finding equipment with Insightful UMD "0" ?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by snook59 View Post
    Why am I still finding equipment with Insightful UMD "0" ?
    Believe it or not, I actually tracked this down a week ago. If you'd like to hold onto it, it'll be a retroactive fix.

    If you'd like a long explanation as to what happened, let me know, but it's a big ol wall of text you've been warned!
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 11-27-2019 at 10:39 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    If you'd like a long explanation as to what happened, let me know, but it's a big ol wall of text you've been warned!
    I would, honestly

  4. #4
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    The occasional UMD+0 item bothers me far, far less than the massive quantity of broken guards still dropping in random loot and included in Cannith Crafting as literal TRAPS to the uniformed player be that a new or returning player from long hiatus. This has been going on for years. Guards either need to be fixed or removed and I sure wish the devs would pick one. Either option would leave me content, but ignoring the broken clutter just feels embarrassing.

    I say this as someone, profoundly grateful and delighted with U44, one of the best content and QoL updates.
    Blood Scented Axe Body Spray (Thelanis)
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    If you'd like a long explanation as to what happened, let me know, but it's a big ol wall of text you've been warned!
    I would also like this.

  6. #6
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    I am still finding stuff in 'The Tide Turns' with the Unraveling Enchantments effect

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    The occasional UMD+0 item bothers me far, far less than the massive quantity of broken guards still dropping in random loot and included in Cannith Crafting as literal TRAPS to the uniformed player be that a new or returning player from long hiatus. This has been going on for years. Guards either need to be fixed or removed and I sure wish the devs would pick one. Either option would leave me content, but ignoring the broken clutter just feels embarrassing.

    I say this as someone, profoundly grateful and delighted with U44, one of the best content and QoL updates.
    Yep, I just said much the same thing on a recent Guards thread, +1. The guards issue is much more problematic than the occasional UMD+0 item. Easily the worst part of it is the new player trap.
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith: Hand of Death
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Believe it or not, I actually tracked this down a week ago. If you'd like to hold onto it, it'll be a retroactive fix.

    If you'd like a long explanation as to what happened, let me know, but it's a big ol wall of text you've been warned!
    I'm a 100% radical wall of text enthusiast.

  9. #9
    Community Member LeoLionxxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    If you'd like a long explanation as to what happened, let me know, but it's a big ol wall of text you've been warned!
    The answer to this question is always "yes"!
    That's not lag, it's just DDO trying to become turn-based again.

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urklore View Post
    I am still finding stuff in 'The Tide Turns' with the Unraveling Enchantments effect
    If you'll pardon my anger, gosh ding dang darn. Heck. When I get back to the office that's going right back on my big list of things I gotta do.

    So, on a lighter note, the people have spoken. Big ol' wall o' text o'clock.

    I've spoken a little bit about item power levels (ilevels) and progressions before, but as a refresher, items have internal power values that players can't see. These are part of how new random loot (2016 onwards) and new cannith crafting handle their values, as well as how we set item power on named items. In general, as item level increases, ilevel increases.

    The relationship between ilevel and actual item enchantment power levels isn't always necessarily mathematically linear. A sample equation for, say, fortification is linear: starts at 30, and then every ilevel point is some amount N of extra fort %. But skills, skills aren't a linear increase. They use a system known as a progression.

    Insightful UMD is a lot of 0s for the first few dozen or so ilevels, then it's a lot of 1s, then some 2s, etc, all the way up until the progression stops at ilevel 200.

    So, the bug. The big random loot treasure table that creates and assigns random loot values and enchantments splits in two early on: sub-level-10 and level 10+. Insightful UMD is on the Level 10+ list, but not the sub 10. There's no power level below 10 that would push insightful umd above 0 to 1. However, there are some power levels in 10+ that drop the insightful umd below 1 - and that's the bug. If I simply drop the insightful umd enchantment from the 10+ list, then no one gets insightful umd. Not great.

    So what I did was find the minimum ilevel that the 10+ treasure list is possible of generating, and then modified the progression of insightful umd to go from 0 to 1 at that value.

    Tldr it was a gross brute force of the solution.

    While I'm on the subject, can we put some discussion to locking Fortification into a progression? I don't like how random/named loot and CC use off-round-number jumps. I can put some effort into locking fortification to 5% increments, but some items would lose (at most 4%) fortification. Worth it? It would IMHO make items prettier. Thoughts?
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    While I'm on the subject, can we put some discussion to locking Fortification into a progression? I don't like how random/named loot and CC use off-round-number jumps. I can put some effort into locking fortification to 5% increments, but some items would lose (at most 4%) fortification. Worth it? It would IMHO make items prettier. Thoughts?
    Not crazy about nerfing fort. If you could make it look like the Taj Mahal or something then it'd be ok.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    If you'll pardon my anger, gosh ding dang darn. Heck. When I get back to the office that's going right back on my big list of things I gotta do.

    So, on a lighter note, the people have spoken. Big ol' wall o' text o'clock.

    I've spoken a little bit about item power levels (ilevels) and progressions before, but as a refresher, items have internal power values that players can't see. These are part of how new random loot (2016 onwards) and new cannith crafting handle their values, as well as how we set item power on named items. In general, as item level increases, ilevel increases.

    The relationship between ilevel and actual item enchantment power levels isn't always necessarily mathematically linear. A sample equation for, say, fortification is linear: starts at 30, and then every ilevel point is some amount N of extra fort %. But skills, skills aren't a linear increase. They use a system known as a progression.

    Insightful UMD is a lot of 0s for the first few dozen or so ilevels, then it's a lot of 1s, then some 2s, etc, all the way up until the progression stops at ilevel 200.

    So, the bug. The big random loot treasure table that creates and assigns random loot values and enchantments splits in two early on: sub-level-10 and level 10+. Insightful UMD is on the Level 10+ list, but not the sub 10. There's no power level below 10 that would push insightful umd above 0 to 1. However, there are some power levels in 10+ that drop the insightful umd below 1 - and that's the bug. If I simply drop the insightful umd enchantment from the 10+ list, then no one gets insightful umd. Not great.

    So what I did was find the minimum ilevel that the 10+ treasure list is possible of generating, and then modified the progression of insightful umd to go from 0 to 1 at that value.

    Tldr it was a gross brute force of the solution.

    While I'm on the subject, can we put some discussion to locking Fortification into a progression? I don't like how random/named loot and CC use off-round-number jumps. I can put some effort into locking fortification to 5% increments, but some items would lose (at most 4%) fortification. Worth it? It would IMHO make items prettier. Thoughts?
    Thank you for the insights, much appreciated!!!

    As for fort, I don't think it's worth the effort. So many named items offer good amounts of fort and insightful fort, plus enhancements, LDs, etc, that no one is really looking to rangen items for fortification. Even cannith-crafted, because it fits on so few slots, I'm hard-pressed to find a use-case for it. Plus the old augments still provide a static amount beginning at fairly low levels(you can get a 100% fortification aug at lvl 8 when crafted/loot gent provide just 70%) that really any changes probably aren't worth the trouble.

  13. #13
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    Lynnabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GramercyRiff View Post
    Not crazy about nerfing fort. If you could make it look like the Taj Mahal or something then it'd be ok.
    It'd be taking at most 4% from some items, but the game would look prettier :) I dunno, I think it's a good idea, but I don't like doing stuff like this without player consensus (or at least some support!)
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TestPilot View Post
    Thank you for the insights, much appreciated!!!

    As for fort, I don't think it's worth the effort. So many named items offer good amounts of fort and insightful fort, plus enhancements, LDs, etc, that no one is really looking to rangen items for fortification. Even cannith-crafted, because it fits on so few slots, I'm hard-pressed to find a use-case for it. Plus the old augments still provide a static amount beginning at fairly low levels(you can get a 100% fortification aug at lvl 8 when crafted/loot gent provide just 70%) that really any changes probably aren't worth the trouble.
    Oh, this would affect named items as well. I hate seeing, like, +178% fort. I want to see +175%. Or +170%. It's a personal peeve of mine, nothing more.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It'd be taking at most 4% from some items, but the game would look prettier I dunno, I think it's a good idea, but I don't like doing stuff like this without player consensus (or at least some support!)
    Would it be possible to scale it the other way so we gain at most 4%? I bet everyone would like this.

    edit: slight nerf to fort isn't really a huge deal. it might kill you like 2% of the time, but it'll seem like it kills you every time.

    I would've survived that if Lynnabel hadn't nerfed fort by 2%.

  16. #16
    Community Member Yamani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Oh, this would affect named items as well. I hate seeing, like, +178% fort. I want to see +175%. Or +170%. It's a personal peeve of mine, nothing more.
    Why not round it up to 180%?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamani View Post
    Why not round it up to 180%?
    Because fort is already too high. Also, it should start at 25%, not 30%. I think it was a math mistake on the original equation, but it's too late now, I suppose. Ah well.
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 11-27-2019 at 12:40 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Because fort is already too high. Should start at 25%, not 30%. I think it was a math mistake on the original equation, but it's too late now, I suppose. I dislike unnecessary stat inflation.
    100% fort was available by level 9ish for over a decade (as long as I have played and probably longer) and level 8 since the augment system existed. 75% is available by level 4. With the "new" system it's not available until level 17+. I'm, not sure it's worth worrying about fort being a little high for the first 3 levels of play.
    Last edited by Krelar; 11-27-2019 at 12:53 PM.

  19. #19
    Community Member ahpook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Oh, this would affect named items as well. I hate seeing, like, +178% fort. I want to see +175%. Or +170%. It's a personal peeve of mine, nothing more.
    There is nothing wrong with using all the numbers from 1 to 100 when dealing with percents. If you really want increments of 5% you shouldn't have gone with percentages (but everyone knows that it is impossible to build games based on a D20 :-P ).

    I suggest that instead of spending time on "fixing" this, you spend time working on your pet peeves

    Thanks for asking for feedback.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    While I'm on the subject, can we put some discussion to locking Fortification into a progression?
    How about we lock it into the proper progression of
    Light 25%
    Moderate 75%
    Heavy 100%

    And get rid of the Reduce Fortification by x, or +X to Fortification.

    Fort is expressed as a percentage chance, which means you're not supposed to be able to modify it. If you want to modify it, convert it to a proper d20 chance of negation and then apply modifiers.

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