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  1. #41
    Community Member count_spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I should certainly hope so! I've found leveling a thrower to be just plain awful. This change was meant to chop off a significant amount of that frustration I'm glad it worked out!

    Worse than a fighter or a monk or a paldin or a barbarian?
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  2. #42
    Hatchery Hero Dark_Helmet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    Some do, yes, if you want to test this, buy a scroll of tensers transformation,it turns your BaB into what your total level is (so 30 when capped) wich is a slap in the face for any class who's abilities prevent using scrolls for tensers
    Egads, you say that a class that abhors using magic isn't benefiting from not using magic?


    Sometimes, a game based on PnP should keep the rules and not all classes should benefit. Due to the lack of player (and dev) understanding of D&D, we have now turned fighters into healers and barbarians into casters. Not every class should be exactly balanced with every other class.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 404error View Post
    lol, I didnt give it a QA pass.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    I never mentioned a bug.
    The bug I think she / we thought you mentioned, was this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    The entire mechanic of how BAB works while standing still for bow users doesn't work, and hasn't ever. The only way to improve this is via Archers Stance. And that is in itself almost useless.
    If this isn't you talking about a bug, then I don't think we know what you mean by that.

    Also, if I have understood you correctly, your issue with bows, is that in the real world, the thing bows have over crossbows is range, but in DDO if you can see it, you can shoot it, regardless of your ranged weapon, and there fore, bows are inferior to crossbows? And for some reason that means you refuse to play the game? Please correct me if I am wrong.
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  4. #44
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpardaX View Post
    The bug I think she / we thought you mentioned, was this:



    If this isn't you talking about a bug, then I don't think we know what you mean by that.

    Also, if I have understood you correctly, your issue with bows, is that in the real world, the thing bows have over crossbows is range, but in DDO if you can see it, you can shoot it, regardless of your ranged weapon, and there fore, bows are inferior to crossbows? And for some reason that means you refuse to play the game? Please correct me if I am wrong.
    reread both of my posts (1st & last)



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    reread both of my posts (1st & last)
    I still have no idea what you were saying in your first post. Archer's Focus is pretty much ignored, so it is clearly not working well, if that is what you mean. Maybe one could nerf IPS and rework this to (somewhat) limit kiting mobility while retaing solid DPS for group play. This has nothing to do with bows though, I think it has always worked with all ranged.

    DDO has never had a damage fall-off with range, or any range considerations, but that is an interesting suggestion.

    As I see it, the problem with Bow DPS is that the combination of TTS/MS + Adrenaline/Hunt's End + Arrow of Slaying is just so much burst damage. AA elemental arrow is also already disproportionally strong in heroics, so it's difficult to buff bow much more without adjusting those first.

    Regarding the changes, they are positive. If you hold down attack the animations are also pretty smooth, but if you click you sometimes get some weirdness.

    However, if possible I would also have preferred to
    1) have faster player arrows, it almost feels like you can outrun them with a leap ability
    2) have the first shot go off faster with the delay shifted more to the re-loading side instead. I realize that thematically it might not make sense to always run with an arrow nooked, but e.g. xbows seem to "feel" better, and I suspect this is part of the reason.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 11-24-2019 at 11:14 AM.

  6. #46
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    DDO has never had a damage fall-off with range, or any range considerations, but that is an interesting suggestion..

    I'll let a dev answer that.



  7. #47
    The Hatchery GeneralDiomedes's Avatar
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    DDO has always been an arms race.

    I think the only way to bring bow users up further is to give them access to higher sustained doublestrike than crossbow users.

  8. #48
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post

    DDO has never had a damage fall-off with range, or any range considerations, but that is an interesting suggestion.

    As I see it, the problem with Bow DPS is that the combination of TTS/MS + Adrenaline/Hunt's End + Arrow of Slaying is just so much burst damage. AA elemental arrow is also already disproportionally strong in heroics, so it's difficult to buff bow much more without adjusting those first.


    Point Blank shot has range considerations. Afaik it already works on all ranged weapons.

    TTS and MS both have a large cooldown, they are not spammable ability, we have to hit through fortification, AC, dodge, and other miss chance on the enemy to land it, hold left button DPS of a typical crossbow build is multiples of Bow, averaged after the miss chances which is far less an issue to miss without resetting your DPS by 100s.

    Xbows have better projectiles, they almost auto trace monsters running sideways, while arrows nearly always miss.

    AA elemental arrows are not strong even in heroics, spell power found on items is very strong however, if you look at the dices they arent overpowered, average 40 damage per arrow is far from too strong. Scaling up 3.5-4 times however is kinda strong, mostly due to gear power.



    I personally would not mind nerfing Slayer Arrow, Elemental arrows, Paralyzing arrows to make Arcane Archer a better tree, less costly, and far far more functional into late epics. Available much earlier on Elf builds as well (T1/T2 for 2AP).



    One way to make AA universal would be to put it into a T3 Harper, say in place for "Know your Foe"; Moving Know your Foe into T5 harper with some strong passives. Harper could use a boost anyway.

    This would unlock AA for anyone thru Harper at 12 action points, while Elves getting it at 3 or 7.

    Looks fair to me.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpardaX View Post
    The bug I think she / we thought you mentioned, was this:

    If this isn't you talking about a bug, then I don't think we know what you mean by that.
    That is exactly what I meant, yes. I was specifically asking about this quote from the OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    The entire mechanic of how BAB works while standing still for bow users doesn't work, and hasn't ever. The only way to improve this is via Archers Stance. And that is in itself almost useless.
    I'd love more information if you've got it! From your wording it sounded a lot like you were speaking about a bugged mechanic, but I am still not entirely sure what you're talking about. If you could go into more detail, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by count_spicoli View Post
    Worse than a fighter or a monk or a paldin or a barbarian?
    Throwers in heroics are just... it's not great. It's not a fun time. It's not a class balance thing, it's a play feel thing.
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 11-25-2019 at 11:17 AM.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    Point Blank shot has range considerations. Afaik it already works on all ranged weapons.

    TTS and MS both have a large cooldown, they are not spammable ability, we have to hit through fortification, AC, dodge, and other miss chance on the enemy to land it, hold left button DPS of a typical crossbow build is multiples of Bow, averaged after the miss chances which is far less an issue to miss without resetting your DPS by 100s.

    Xbows have better projectiles, they almost auto trace monsters running sideways, while arrows nearly always miss.

    AA elemental arrows are not strong even in heroics, spell power found on items is very strong however, if you look at the dices they arent overpowered, average 40 damage per arrow is far from too strong. Scaling up 3.5-4 times however is kinda strong, mostly due to gear power.



    I personally would not mind nerfing Slayer Arrow, Elemental arrows, Paralyzing arrows to make Arcane Archer a better tree, less costly, and far far more functional into late epics. Available much earlier on Elf builds as well (T1/T2 for 2AP).



    One way to make AA universal would be to put it into a T3 Harper, say in place for "Know your Foe"; Moving Know your Foe into T5 harper with some strong passives. Harper could use a boost anyway.

    This would unlock AA for anyone thru Harper at 12 action points, while Elves getting it at 3 or 7.

    Looks fair to me.
    I mainly agree with this, but:
    a) You cannot ignore all the spell power in heroics for 40pts of Elemental Arrow, since that is the new normal. While a fully meta'd chain lightning will hit for 5x that, you can do almost as much while it is on CD, and it's free. You can probably do 150 DPS with EA alone at L12 (assuming it is not resisted, which it is later on..). It's single target before IPS though, which keeps it in line (see caveat below).
    b) Late game, TTS or MS are up most of the time on a Monkcher. TTS more so than MS. I also wish monkchers were less terrible when these are down, but you can't neglect something that is available more than half of the time.

    Additionally, a stupid amount of the DPS from a Monkcher is one-off burst from Adrenaline/Hunt's End+Slaying, so I definitely think some adjustment could be in order. I think it's something like 30-50% even when averaged over the 25s CD of Hunt's End. Put another way, 30-50% of your total damage over 25 seconds comes out in the first second of these 25. This will just overkill most trash.

    Caveat: All ranged get a huge power boost from IPS. Balancing ranged with and w/o IPS is like two different universes, esp. since the alternative Archer's focus is so useless.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 11-25-2019 at 11:45 AM.

  11. #51
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    The increase to throwing speed is noticeable and I'm grateful for the attention put to this issue, but unfortunately it doesn't go far enough to overcome the frustration of trying to level a thrower/bow user. One thing that I think might really help bows & throws™ shine in heroics is lowering the BAB requirement for Improved Precise Shot. It could even be an incrementally-increasing-in-effect kind of limitation to the power of the feat. Say, lower the BAB requirement to take the feat to BAB 8. At BAB 8 it hits only 2 targets. Then with each increase in BAB another increase in potential to hit an additional enemy occurs.

    BAB 8 hits the target and one other in the projectile line.
    BAB 9 hits the target and two others in the projectile line.
    BAB 10 hits the target and three others in the projectile line.
    BAB 11 is the fully realized Improved Precise Shot as we know and enjoy today.

    I think that would be a huge help in keeping pace with the demands quests put on throwing and bow wielding players as we see the number of enemies start to dramatically increase around level 8 or so.
    Last edited by Sorcerio; 11-25-2019 at 11:46 AM.

  12. #52
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Comparing elemental arrows to spells directly, it doesn't feel right, too many variables on both sides. Sure, EAs are stronger than say Chalice Pallie's attacks, altho they can pair it with falchions or scimitars, repeaters, dual xbows, etc... if they would like to.

    EK is fairly strong for the same reason, it is not locked into a slow attack rate 2-handed d8 weapon with a 20/x3 crit profile..., but works with any high rof or better crit rate weapons fine. (mind that bows for Rangers dont have a weapon attack+damage enhancement line)

    Anyway, if elemental arrows need a nerf so the whole tree can be improved, id say thats a fair deal...
    Last edited by janave; 11-25-2019 at 01:05 PM.

  13. #53
    Community Member Baahb3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    BaB stops at 25, if you can believe it
    Going to take a stab at the BAB at 25 thing, why it is what it is. Bare with me as this is a little PnP talk.

    BAB technically stops at Level 20, then in Epic Levels, everyone, Wizards, Fighters, everyone, gets +1 to hit at every Odd Level.

    Since we have 10 Epic Levels, we would get +5 attack bonus. They are adding that to the BAB cap of +20. So +25 is Max.

    For spells and effects that give you a BAB equal to your character level, this would make your BAB 20, then since everyone gets +5 from their 10 epic levels, you are at the max +25.

    Have not really tested this myself (at work), to see if a level 20 Wizard/10 Epic character would have an in-game BAB box of +15 but if they did, that would uphold this theory. (10 BAB from 20 Wiz Levels + 5 from 10 Epic Levels)

    P.S.

    As long as we have Lynnabel's ear on this thread. Can we change the animation time to activate No-Holds Barred/Endless Fusilade so it is the same for all types of crossbows?? Pretty Please??? It is instant for non-repeaters but 1-2s for repeaters? That may have had a place before Inquisitive but there is no need for the difference in activation time now.
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  14. #54
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I'd love more information if you've got it! From your wording it sounded a lot like you were speaking about a bugged mechanic, but I am still not entirely sure what you're talking about. If you could go into more detail, I'd appreciate it. Thanks!
    .
    Excuse the lack of response, very very sick, can't focus that well atm.

    but in the meantime, I would kindly ask for your feedback on my PnP's group suggestion for the Bowman Tree.
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...he-Bowman-Tree


    My entire group is appreciative of any changes to ranged combat. But the crossbow/fusillade OP'ness debacle is just too much for us to swallow, and be happy with or "settle" for the change you just made as a "fix"

    It is not.

    Please post some constructive feedback (like you ask for) about the Bowman proposal



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baahb3 View Post
    Going to take a stab at the BAB at 25 thing, why it is what it is. Bare with me as this is a little PnP talk.

    BAB technically stops at Level 20, then in Epic Levels, everyone, Wizards, Fighters, everyone, gets +1 to hit at every Odd Level.

    Since we have 10 Epic Levels, we would get +5 attack bonus. They are adding that to the BAB cap of +20. So +25 is Max.

    For spells and effects that give you a BAB equal to your character level, this would make your BAB 20, then since everyone gets +5 from their 10 epic levels, you are at the max +25.
    Gotta correct your lack of PnP knowledge on that one. There are several ways to get a BaB above 20.
    A level 30 Cleric casting Divine Power can and will get 30 Base Attack Bonus.
    The increase simply doesn't give more iterative attacks.

    The clearest case of BaB increasing above 20 can easily be seen on the creatures the game is partially named for: dragons.
    A dragon gets 1 point of base attack per HD. Creatures like dragons, unless they take class levels, NEVER reach epic levels - they just advance by HD, and if their Hit Die increase says the Base Attack should increase, then increase it does. There are even several feats that can only be taken by such creatures, because nothing that progress through class advancement can get a permanent Base Attack Bonus above 20.

    As such, DDO treats the players as creatures more than it does as PnP players. We continue to advance in power, but forced to take a certain class, forced to take that class' traits and class features, but our Base Attack continues to increase and so do our base save bonuses (which would be important for certain feats in PnP).
    Dragons have to take levels in Dragon. Epic characters in DDO have to take levels in Epic.

  16. #56
    Community Member Baahb3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    Gotta correct your lack of PnP knowledge on that one. There are several ways to get a BaB above 20.
    Not to play the back and forth card but...

    From Epic Level handbook, page 6.

    Epic Attack Bonus: "Similarly, your base attack bonus does not increase after your character level reaches 20th."

    As a DM, I would rule Divine Power, which increases BaB is also capped by this 20th level rule. You may see that differently I suppose.

    This is for character classes, i.e. PCs. Monsters follow their own rules for BaB as outlined in the Monster Manual, so your point on monster BAB above 20 is moot in this discussion.
    Last edited by Baahb3; 11-26-2019 at 09:41 PM.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baahb3 View Post
    Not to play the back and forth card but...

    Epic Attack Bonus: "Similarly, your base attack bonus does not increase after your character level reaches 20th."

    As a DM, I would rule Divine Power, which increases BaB is also capped by this 20th level rule. You may see that differently I suppose.
    By all means, back and forth is what makes this a discussion!

    You can rule this as you wish, but know that this is your houserule, not the actual rules. It's not that awful a rule, and helps non-casters, that need all the help they can get, but do be careful about your reading of those rules.

    Your houserule would mean that the Divine Power spell does absolutely for base attack when cast by a 30th level Cleric. Their caster level is 30, but their base attack is still 15, and that base attack "does not increase after your character level reaches 20th."
    Casting the spell couldn't increase their base attack, so it would remain at 15. Meanwhile, the level 19 cleric would just read the spell's description and temporarily get 19 base attack bonus from the listed benefits.

    If the rule was that Base Attack bonus cannot increase above 20, then the spell would be capped by the overarching rule.
    If the spell itself said it had a maximum caster level of 20, the base attack bonus would stop there too.
    Neither of those is true.

  18. #58
    Community Member Baahb3's Avatar
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    The rule does say that BAB cannot increase above 20 in a round about way. The max BAB at level 20 is 20, 1 per level. If BAB does not increase after character level 20, then max BAB is 20. At least that is the way I read it.

    If BAB cannot increase after character level 20, then a spell/ability that increases the BAB to be equal to character level, cannot increase it after that inflated BAB hits 'character level' 20.

    The 30 cleric would still get +5 to their BAB, making them equal to a 30th level fighter. 20 BAB + 5 Epic Bonus.

    If we take your interpretation, then the cleric is 10 points higher than the same level fighter. 30 BAB + 5 Epic bonus. I just don't read it that way.
    Last edited by Baahb3; 11-27-2019 at 12:22 AM.
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  19. #59
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    By all means, back and forth is what makes this a discussion!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baahb3 View Post
    The rule does say that BAB cannot increase above 20 in a round about way. The max BAB at level 20 is 20, 1 per level. If BAB does not increase after character level 20, then max BAB is 20. At least that is the way I read it.

    If BAB cannot increase after character level 20, then a spell/ability that increases the BAB to be equal to character level, cannot increase it after that inflated BAB hits 'character level' 20.

    The 30 cleric would still get +5 to their BAB, making them equal to a 30th level fighter. 20 BAB + 5 Epic Bonus.

    If we take your interpretation, then the cleric is 10 points higher than the same level fighter. 30 BAB + 5 Epic bonus. I just don't read it that way.
    You're reading it in a roundabout way. I'm reading what it directly says.
    The rule says BaB doesn't increase [by leveling up] once you go above level 20. You're quoting part of a whole section about gaining levels above 20.
    If it was only that it couldn't increase above 20, a level 40 Wizard would get to BaB 20 and have their 4 attacks per round by then, and THEN stop gaining BaB because they hit that magical number of 20.

    The spell doesn't say you get a Fighter's BaB - if it did, you'd be right, 30th level Fighters have 20 BaB - it says you gain a BaB equal to your character level.
    A 30th level Cleric's BaB would change to 30, and then add +5 epic bonus on top of it. Fighters and non-casters get the short end of the stick at higher levels, and that's basically an unwritten rule in PnP.
    Given that Clerics are spellcasters of the highest order that at those levels can summon all the Angels in Heaven in a single round by casting a single spell, that should be the least of your worries.

    See, your roundabout way of reading it has to have me rewrite the spell to specifically name a class' BaB by level, and then think that 'not increasing above level 20' means 'not increasing above the number 20', but still mean 'not increasing above level 20 for characters whose Base Attack Bonus isn't 20 at level 20'.
    You have to read the same paragraph in two entirely different ways to make it make any sense.

    I have to do much, MUCH more reinterpretation work than your houserule puts in place.
    You're not reading what it says - you're reading what you want it to say.
    I'm not questioning the logic of limiting spellcasters here. What I'm saying is that your suggestion is bending the rules for your own game. DMs are entirely allowed to do that, and most of us do.

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