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  1. #1
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Default U44 explanation please

    As per release notes...
    The Base Attack Speed for bows and throwing weapons has been adjusted for a better experience in the Heroic levels, while keeping the current maximum attack speed at Base Attack Bonus 25 and above. This change approximately doubles the relationship between Base Attack Bonus and Attack Speed, but adjusts the per-level progression to provide less of a per-level increase. Players at all levels should experience an increase in animation smoothness and Attack Speed, with the increase tapering off as your Base Attack Bonus increases.

    Someone explain what this does for bow users. Let's go with Ranger/AA. They get 1 BAB per level. To a max of 25. So.... how does that "relationship" equate to more damage or more attacks @ melee round?

    . The entire mechanic of how BAB works while standing still for bow users doesn't work, and hasn't ever. The only way to improve this is via Archers Stance. And that is in itself almost useless.

    Animation smoothing doesn't equate to better stats for bow users.

    SSG, GIVE ME A REASON TO COME BACK TO THE GAME.
    Last edited by Lagin; 11-24-2019 at 07:01 AM.



  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    Someone explain what this does for bow users.
    Sure!

    Each different animation set (2 handed, single weapon, sword and board, bow, thrower, etc) has a relationship between a character's Base Attack Bonus (or BaB) and their animation speed. As BaB increases, animation speed, and therefore attack speed, increases.

    I doubled that initial ratio for bows and then halved the per-level increase. This means that at BaB 1, the animation speed increase from BaB is doubled from its current bonus. Here is a fun MS Paint DiagramTM to help explain what that means if you still can't quite wrap your head around it.



    Hope this helps! :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    The entire mechanic of how BAB works while standing still for bow users doesn't work, and hasn't ever.
    Would you mind elaborating on what this means? I'm not actually sure what you're referring to.
    Last edited by Lynnabel; 11-21-2019 at 07:44 PM.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  3. #3
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Sure!

    Each different animation set (2 handed, single weapon, sword and board, bow, thrower, etc) has a relationship between a character's Base Attack Bonus (or BaB) and their animation speed. As BaB increases, animation speed, and therefore attack speed, increases.

    I doubled that initial ratio for bows and then halved the per-level increase. This means that at BaB 1, the animation speed increase from BaB is doubled from its current bonus. Here is a fun MS Paint DiagramTM to help explain what that means if you still can't quite wrap your head around it.



    Hope this helps!

    lol



  4. #4
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Lynnabel, I give you props for the graph, it gave me a good laugh.

    Here, have a signature for the holidays.

    https://i.imgur.com/hsfKCdc.png





    As for the actual OP, someone show me some numbers that equate to how this helps AA/DS bow users.



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Do you have a stylus pad or are you just that sure-handed with a mouse?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Do you have a stylus pad or are you just that sure-handed with a mouse?
    That's an authentic mouse MS paint drawing. I'm actually pretty good, if I do say so myself.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  7. #7
    Community Member hp1055cm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post


    Hope this helps!
    I like this post.

    I also noticed that he avoided answering your question even though he replied to you twice.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm
    Makes me think that other post was your sock account.

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous
    Incorrect. Post reported.

  8. #8
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    How does this work out for BAB 26~30 bow users? Are they slower now, relative to their pre-u44 attack speed? The graph stops at 26 but there seems to be only one logical way to extrapolate those lines.

    By the way, this change approximately halves the relationship between Base Attack Bonus and Attack Speed."
    Ithink that sentence fom the release notes is where the confusion comes from.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    That graph rougly shows Old: y=x vs New: y=0.5x+something
    BAB play less of a role in attack speed, the relationship is lowered.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rull View Post
    How does this work out for BAB 26~30 bow users? Are they slower now, relative to their pre-u44 attack speed? The graph stops at 26 but there seems to be only one logical way to extrapolate those lines.
    BaB stops at 25, if you can believe it

    Quote Originally Posted by Rull View Post
    By the way, this change approximately halves the relationship between Base Attack Bonus and Attack Speed."
    Ithink that sentence fom the release notes is where the confusion comes from.
    Not sure where you got those words from as it wasn't the release notes. Per my reply the per-level increase compared to the previous level was halved because the base was increased. It'll end up at the same at BaB 25, there is no place on the BaB table where the new numbers are lower.

    For reference, the release notes: "The Base Attack Speed for bows and throwing weapons has been adjusted for a better experience in the Heroic levels, while keeping the current maximum attack speed at Base Attack Bonus 25 and above. This change approximately doubles the relationship between Base Attack Bonus and Attack Speed, but adjusts the per-level progression to provide less of a per-level increase. Players at all levels should experience an increase in animation smoothness and Attack Speed, with the increase tapering off as your Base Attack Bonus increases."

    Quote Originally Posted by Rull View Post
    That graph rougly shows Old: y=x vs New: y=0.5x+something
    It's a graph I drew in MS Paint as a joke, I wouldn't put a lot of mathematical stock into. The real graph I made using the real data was a little more accurate, believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Rull View Post
    BAB play less of a role in attack speed, the relationship is lowered.
    All you need to care about is the higher this number, the greater the attack speed.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  10. #10
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    BaB stops at 25, if you can believe it

    It's a graph I drew in MS Paint as a joke, I wouldn't put a lot of mathematical stock into. The real graph I made using the real data was a little more accurate, believe me
    All you need to care about is the higher this number, the greater the attack speed.
    Your graph (as I stated) made me laugh, knowing (kind of) how much more intricate that would really look.

    Thanks for answering btw.

    My question now is, how quirky was the older progression? Was is causing conflicts with actual animations as a character progressed? AND.. can we anticipate any changes to this in the near future?



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    BaB stops at 25, if you can believe it
    Well, with Divine Power (and tenser's, warchanter t5, etc) the BAB can go beyond 25, right?


    Not sure where you got those words from as it wasn't the release notes. Per my reply the per-level increase compared to the previous level was halved because the base was increased. It'll end up at the same at BaB 25, there is no place on the BaB table where the new numbers are lower.

    For reference, the release notes: "The Base Attack Speed for bows and throwing weapons has been adjusted for a better experience in the Heroic levels, while keeping the current maximum attack speed at Base Attack Bonus 25 and above. This change approximately doubles the relationship between Base Attack Bonus and Attack Speed, but adjusts the per-level progression to provide less of a per-level increase. Players at all levels should experience an increase in animation smoothness and Attack Speed, with the increase tapering off as your Base Attack Bonus increases."
    It's the bold part where i got it from, I just think the word 'doubles' should have been 'halves' (the slope is half as steep).

    But never mind that, it's just release notes and the rest of the text made the purport clear, at least to me.
    I'm personally more interested in that other thing. Even on a pure ranger (ranger 20 / epic 10) I use divine power clickies for that last 5 BAB, so I'm wondering what you mean when you say it 'stops'.
    Last edited by Rull; 11-21-2019 at 11:55 PM.

  12. #12
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    BaB stops at 25, if you can believe it .
    Sigh,

    Tenser's Transformation
    Causes the caster to become a virtual fighting machine becoming stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. You gain a +4 alchemical bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +6 alchemical bonus to Armor Class, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level. Your spellcasting ability is reduced, resulting in a -2 penalty to all spell DCs, -2 to your rolls to bypass enemy Spell Resistance, and doubling the cooldown of your spells.

    Tensors is kept up 24/7 by prety much anyone in endgame thats shoots any type of bow or goes into melee.

    Exept for the raging barb, because he is prevented from using umd during rage, i mean, in this day and age with enemy ac numbers are the way they are, a class that is also prevented from taking the manditory precision feat and is usually stuck with a -8 or -11 to hit due to power attack (again, rage prevents the use of the manditory precision feat) a pure barb is sometimes a 21 to hit behind on, say a rogue.

    Precision: 5% to hit (and a very nice 25% reduction in enemy fortrification, very usefull in this game)
    Power attack, reduces to hit by 5, 8 if using the class enh, 11 when also using racial enh.
    Tensors transformaton adds another 5 bab


    So the barb is a good 21 behind on skill monkeys, clerics, bards, etc
    Realy nice for a dedicated melee class.
    And i haven't even included the missing +4 alchemical bonus to str, dex and con wich add a +2 to hit (and adds a small bonus to survival.)

    Since this has been mentioned a few times before, howcome you're not aware?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

  13. #13
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Default Good change! thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    That's an authentic mouse MS paint drawing. I'm actually pretty good, if I do say so myself.
    Your calligraphy skills are second to none.



    Now, if we could do something about the projectiles being a little more predictable, or just making up for the xbow's autotrace bolts...

    Or consider bows 2H, they are after all.


    Juuust a few more things and we are in a position that rolling a bow guy is a good idea.

    I wanna test now how it interacts with haste boosts

  14. #14
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    Pretty sure when Tenser's and all that stuff says that your BAB equals your character level, it means only the heroic levels. Epic levels give +1 BAB each 2 lvls.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jango-EX View Post
    Pretty sure when Tenser's and all that stuff says that your BAB equals your character level, it means only the heroic levels. Epic levels give +1 BAB each 2 lvls.
    Then there is a different bug as BaB shows as 30 on the character sheet

  16. #16
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jango-EX View Post
    Pretty sure when Tenser's and all that stuff says that your BAB equals your character level, it means only the heroic levels. Epic levels give +1 BAB each 2 lvls.
    I personally hate³ that.

    I wish we could do away with Tenser's scrolling at 30... but a bower will likely want to have that on before launching manyshot (4x5rp)...even if not dex or str based.

  17. #17
    Staggering LightBear's Avatar
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    I'm still confused, I see that BAB somehow influences the Animation Smoothness.
    Wut?
    And then rounding at the end... as in some wrist movement from pulling and loading a new arrow or something?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rull View Post
    Well, with Divine Power (and tenser's, warchanter t5, etc) the BAB can go beyond 25, right?
    I second the question. So all the abilities that set BAB to character level just don't work at all past 25?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  19. #19
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I second the question. So all the abilities that set BAB to character level just don't work at all past 25?
    Some do, yes, if you want to test this, buy a scroll of tensers transformation,it turns your BaB into what your total level is (so 30 when capped) wich is a slap in the face for any class who's abilities prevent using scrolls for tensers
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    Some do, yes, if you want to test this, buy a scroll of tensers transformation,it turns your BaB into what your total level is (so 30 when capped) wich is a slap in the face for any class who's abilities prevent using scrolls for tensers
    That doesn't mean it does anything. If it's true that BAB only works up to 25 that would be great info for players to have. A full BAB class would actually be a full BAB class. If it does work to 30 (I know it will display to 30 and works for PRR, but that doesn't mean it affect animations), then the new curve should intersect at 30, not 25. **


    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    For reference, the release notes: "The Base Attack Speed for bows and throwing weapons has been adjusted for a better experience in the Heroic levels, while keeping the current maximum attack speed at Base Attack Bonus 25 and above. This change approximately doubles the relationship between Base Attack Bonus and Attack Speed, but adjusts the per-level progression to provide less of a per-level increase. Players at all levels should experience an increase in animation smoothness and Attack Speed, with the increase tapering off as your Base Attack Bonus increases."
    bolded: it would have been clearer if it read "increases the initial speed, and reduces the rate at which it increases due to BAB." The graph shows it very nicely though.

    second bold: this is the difference between the two lines for those who are bad at graphs.


    ** what a clusterf epic levels added. maybe it should have been a BAB multiplier instead of 1/2, a multiplier would not penalize BAB classes.
    Last edited by Cantor; 11-22-2019 at 09:13 AM.

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