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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rull View Post
    That graph rougly shows Old: y=x vs New: y=0.5x+something
    Something = 12.5, if the lines intercept at 25

    Or in other words, at L1 (BAB0) now you're as fast with a bow as you were at L12 before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    BaB stops at 25, if you can believe it
    This is part of the reason why multiclass builds are so ubiquitous at endgame...there's no downside to splashing a .75 or .5 BAB class after a few Epic levels.

    I think its a vestige of the old level caps (was the cap ever actually 25?). When they raised it to 30, I guess they decided they didnt want BAB to continue to statflate with it.

  2. #22
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    That doesn't mean it does anything. If it's true that BAB only works up to 25 that would be great info for players to have. A full BAB class would actually be a full BAB class. If it does work to 30 (I know it will display to 30 and works for PRR, but that doesn't mean it affect animations), then the new curve should intersect at 30, not 25. **



    bolded: it would have been clearer if it read "increases the initial speed, and reduces the rate at which it increases due to BAB." The graph shows it very nicely though.

    second bold: this is the difference between the two lines for those who are bad at graphs.


    ** what a clusterf epic levels added. maybe it should have been a BAB multiplier instead of 1/2, a multiplier would not penalize BAB classes.
    I have no idea what you're reponding to, lyn claimed the bab cap was 25, she was wrong, it's 30 when using the right enh or buff.

    In my oppinion, anything that depends on bab (prr, attacks, etc should only be based on the real bab, calculated by the bab given by your class levels, epic levels should only provide bab if your bab was 20 at lv 20. ( Not boosted by enh or spells).

    I don't care about the ranged rework, as long as its th games easy button compared to melee it can be burned at the stake for all i care, it lacks the risk / reward ballance.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    I have no idea what you're reponding to, lyn claimed the bab cap was 25, she was wrong, it's 30 when using the right enh or buff.
    I think she might've meant that BAB has no benefit past 25. Like everything that scales on it hard-caps at 25. Just like you can get Jump over 40 on your stat sheet, but it doesnt do anything more.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I think she might've meant that BAB has no benefit past 25. Like everything that scales on it hard-caps at 25. Just like you can get Jump over 40 on your stat sheet, but it doesnt do anything more.
    Jump height is capped at 40 but reduces falling damage beyond 40


    Bab is claimed to be capped at 25 but adds bennefits to hit things past 25, adds prr past 25.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

  5. #25
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    I think that it just meant that BAB over 25 is irrelevant when determining attack speed and was phrased a bit inaccurate.
    Like if attack speed uses a lookup tabel and there's just no entry after 25. Or if it's calculated with a formula and that formula uses math.min(bab, 25).

    But, maybe it does.
    Or maybe BAB over 25 really doesn't add attack bonus and prr, and those are display errors.

    And wow today at work is slow, that I can speculate about these things. Code's compiling...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I think she might've meant that BAB has no benefit past 25. Like everything that scales on it hard-caps at 25. Just like you can get Jump over 40 on your stat sheet, but it doesnt do anything more.
    I think, more technically, that BAB has no attack speed benefit past 25. I think it still gives the bonus to hit and so on, but I'd be surprised if it changes the animations.

    This is a good change, since bows are so incredibly painful at lower levels and their damage output is tepid at best in heroics (except for a few very specialized, maybe a bit janky builds) compared to other weapon types.
    I primarily play Zunzyne Siegemaker, and am the guild master of Ares Macrotechnology on Ghallanda.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSQ View Post
    I think, more technically, that BAB has no attack speed benefit past 25.
    Correct! This is a rare case in which the players' own testing produced correct results: https://ddowiki.com/page/Base_Attack_Bonus#Benefits
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Correct! This is a rare case in which the players' own testing produced correct results: https://ddowiki.com/page/Base_Attack_Bonus#Benefits
    When Mr Cow did his testing the level cap was 25

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caarb View Post
    When Mr Cow did his testing the level cap was 25
    It's still true, though. The BaB tables do not increase attack speed beyond 25. 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, and 30 BaB have the same attack speed increase for all animation styles.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's still true, though. The BaB tables do not increase attack speed beyond 25. 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, and 30 BaB have the same attack speed increase for all animation styles.
    You don't have to response to this but I'm still confused. For me it's like you're mixing up a Geisha with a pole dancer, prob meant to be very entertaining but for me I just don't know what to make of it.


  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by LightBear View Post
    You don't have to response to this but I'm still confused. For me it's like you're mixing up a Geisha with a pole dancer, prob meant to be very entertaining but for me I just don't know what to make of it.
    Attack animations are decoupled from the actual attacks but both the attack animations and the attack speeds receive increases as BAB increases. Each animation style has a different visible animation speed but the BAB based attack rate across races and styles would be the same(then this is all modified with TWF and 2HF feats, doublestrikes, enhancements etc.).

    If I recall, some of the early issues with animations & BAB were:
    • Ranged kiting was seen as too favorable to the player during the first few months after release, especially with thrown weapons.
      -Ranged attack speeds were lowered justified that ranged users were at a tactical advantage being able to outsmart the enemy pathing/range etc.
    • Since melee attacks were coupled to animations, attacks 1 & 2 were faster than 3 & 4 so melees would move/dance to restart the animation cycle to get faster attacks.
      -To-Hit modifiers and critical range for attacks 3/4 were increased to encourage players to allow the animation chain to proceed.
      -Action Point revamp allowed for more flexibility with enemy AC (Higher AC without making the Fighter +Hit or Action boost a "required" AP spend) range by giving more options with To-Hit bonuses. This was in the day of only 4 Action Point lines.

    This led to modifications that split character animation from the actual attack speed.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Each different animation set (2 handed, single weapon, sword and board, bow, thrower, etc) has a relationship between a character's Base Attack Bonus (or BaB) and their animation speed. As BaB increases, animation speed, and therefore attack speed, increases.
    Unfortunately some of those relationships are set to 0.
    Dual light and heavy crossbows for instance.
    A BaB of 7, 11, 15, 17 and 30 all result in the same attack speed for them.
    Interestingly enough during U44 Lamannia preview 2, BaB was working for both dual light and heavy crossbows, however it was removed or disabled before going live.

  13. #33
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    As per my OP,

    Give me a reason to come back, I was hoping for bow users/Rangers/AA to get something in the update,

    Once again, screw the pooch.

    Once again, I speak with my wallet.

    What's a shame SSG, is that Ive run Borderlands 100's and 100's of times in PnP. I was looking forward to everything it has t offer this game. But you continue to run on the outskirt of helping all classes, instead you cater to the latest cash cow you develop.

    Your loss not mine.



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    I was hoping for bow users/Rangers/AA to get something in the update,
    Ah, the significant increase in attack speed wasn't that? Dang, I actually genuinely thought you'd really appreciate the change while I was making it.

    Also, if you have more information on the BaB bug you mentioned in the OP, I'm still curious. I don't know what you were referring to but I'm definitely open to poking around if you can clarify what you were talking about :)
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Ah, the significant increase in attack speed wasn't that? Dang, I actually genuinely thought you'd really appreciate the change while I was making it.

    Also, if you have more information on the BaB bug you mentioned in the OP, I'm still curious. I don't know what you were referring to but I'm definitely open to poking around if you can clarify what you were talking about
    Oh, at this point, ANY update to poor bow rangers is welcome, no doubt.
    As someone that mainly plays and introduces new players to the game, that change for heroic levels and the fact rangers are very easy to explain and help build, these are all great news indeed.

    While most people will agree bow users need help in the higher level portion of the game, this is huge QOL for players on the lower end.

    Still, if I had to bet, I'd be guessing people saying this doesn't help bow users are talking about how little bows contribute as a ranged option at higher levels, where your change does absolutely nothing.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Ah, the significant increase in attack speed wasn't that? Dang, I actually genuinely thought you'd really appreciate the change while I was making it.

    Also, if you have more information on the BaB bug you mentioned in the OP, I'm still curious. I don't know what you were referring to but I'm definitely open to poking around if you can clarify what you were talking about
    It was a great and much needed change.

    I was also confused by the different versions of the patch notes however. If you had said "we increased attack speed at L1 by x% and decreased the scaling with BaB so that the final attack speed at max level is the same", people would have been less confused :-)

    Also great to hear that scrolling Tenser's doesn't actually help(?). Is it only BaB that affects attack speed, or does level also play a role?
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 11-22-2019 at 09:56 PM.

  17. #37

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    I noticed a change in thrown attacks on my level 10
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saekee View Post
    I noticed a change in thrown attacks on my level 10
    I should certainly hope so! I've found leveling a thrower to be just plain awful. This change was meant to chop off a significant amount of that frustration :) I'm glad it worked out!
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I should certainly hope so! I've found leveling a thrower to be just plain awful. This change was meant to chop off a significant amount of that frustration I'm glad it worked out!
    Now, if only you could also revert the nerfs on Glass Shards as well, that'd be greatly appreciated.

    "Effect: This weapon is made of fragile glass and will shatter on impact, inflicting a bleed effect on targets vulnerable to bleeding. This bleed deals 2d10 damage per stack every two seconds, lasts for 20 seconds, and can stack up to 100 times."

    As of now, stacking damage doesn't apply until you stop attacking. Just why? Its a bleed effect and it only affects living enemies. It was never OP.

    I understand Vistani Weapon Versatility nerf when it happened but why ruin Spite as well? It's a little 2d10 damage now.
    Either revert the changes or replace the effect with smth raid weapon worthy. Fetters of Unreality would be cool I guess or Soul Tear like on Hallowed Splinters.

    As of now, even The Fractured Elegance from PN isn't that great for scimitar users.

  20. #40
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Ah, the significant increase in attack speed wasn't that? Dang, I actually genuinely thought you'd really appreciate the change while I was making it.

    Also, if you have more information on the BaB bug you mentioned in the OP, I'm still curious. I don't know what you were referring to but I'm definitely open to poking around if you can clarify what you were talking about

    I never mentioned a bug.

    I am appreciative of the change, Really, ANY upgrades are welcome.

    here's some of my issues with DDO's current "ranged weapons" mechanics.

    Range of weapon effectiveness)
    Quite simply put, you (SSG) have heavy xbows & heavy repeaters being able to shoot at the same distance, accuracy and sustaining damage as long bows. Without the standard drop-off in damage as the range increases.

    ANY crossbow of any type has it's accuracy dramatically reduced exponentially after it's effective range of use. Light, it's around 60' for maximum effectiveness. Heavy it goes out to 100' (some composite crossbows can get to a max of 400'.

    Basically in DDO, if you can target something, you can hit it (providing LoS is acquired). This is a major flaw in this games ranged combat.

    No way in any properly scripted and run dungeon/campaign in PnP can any crossbow type weapon achieve the distance/accuracy of a long bow. It CAN'T happen.

    Rate of fire)
    Any crossbow (save repeaters) takes both hands to load and fire. Even repeaters are handicapped in attacks @ melee round. Simply put, a bolt has to be "loaded" where an arrow is notched and requires no other "hand" action to fire.

    Damage within effective range)
    Heavy crossbows in close quarters deal massive damage. As do long bows. The standard specs on a bolt are such that the stoutness of it's basic design deal blunt force trauma on crits (Point of Impact). *a bigger bullet does more impact damage, but doesn't have the distance and accuracy of a smaller round unless it's design is meant for larger bored weapons*

    Overall Ranged comparison)
    A sliding scale is best used to convey this simple mechanic, (in lieu of one, the following chart will do)



    Damage)
    Heavy crossbows(any) and long bows are only 1 HP apart within the effective range of the weapon. Light crossbows vs short bows deal the same ratio, but light crossbows vs long bows are only 2 HP but only have an effective range of <100'.

    Outside of 100' no crossbow has the overall effective attack specs as a long bow.

    Now lets look at what you've done recently)

    Endless Fusillade/Inq/ dual xbows. Basically this set-up is so OP it's a joke. Someone can plink at any distance w/ any type of crossbow and out-gun any long bow build.

    Now tell me how this change you've made levels that disparity. It doesn't. You're selling tickets to a side show at a carnival.

    Again thanks for the change, but the disparity you've created has ruined the game for many players, and builds. Until this is fully addressed, this "game balance" (for ranged) is a myth.

    **I know how our ranged system works w/ PBS range and damage, my post takes that into consideration, but doesn't use it as a baseline**
    Last edited by Lagin; 11-24-2019 at 07:00 AM.



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