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  1. #321
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    Demons den is a no brainer for nerf.

    No one runs that quest ever and it's in the freaking harbor!

    Instead you nerf a quest that's on the freaking Moon!

    And don't make it any easier to get there!
    Toon on cannith

  2. #322
    Forum witchdoctor Hobgoblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsela View Post
    Demons den is a no brainer for nerf.

    No one runs that quest ever and it's in the freaking harbor!

    Instead you nerf a quest that's on the freaking Moon!

    And don't make it any easier to get there!
    you mean u cant join a group and have some one share and then teleport? i know its hard.
    main toons: Cerrsi(silly caster/xbow) Sttomper (silly barbarian)-jammiee (Silly melee)
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  3. #323
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    The heroic quest I'm going to headline is the only one I didn't complete on Elite or Reaper on hardcore - In The Demon's Den.

    I did it on Hard because Elite is not just incredibly dangerous but pretty tedious with the kiting without 4 separate solo capable characters; I think just removing the 'ritualists must all die at once' would see a lot more completions on both the normal servers and next season's HC.

    The quests I went "I need to focus as I have a real chance of death here" (no comment on Keep on the Borderlands as I've only run it super over-level on my main) were:

    L2 - Recovering the Lost Tome - it's a dice roll even timing the lightning and having the int for the runes.

    L3 - Crypt of Gerard Dryden - I don't even know how to safely pull a lever without the possibility of an unlucky 'all 4 quadrants' coffin explosion spawn sending the alert way up with a bunch of champs and paralyzing ghasts.

    L4 - Redfang - the poison room. There's a poison jet that never turns off even with all the traps done - apart from that you never have to time the jets. I honestly think it might even be a bug?

    L5 - Chamber of Insanity - those wraiths and the end spectre are mean. I find this one much harder than the level 6 base House K quests like Ruined Halls which are theoretically a level above.

    L6 - Memory Lapse - the Manticores' legendary thirst is only sated by Hardcore Server new player blood.

    L6 - Another Man's Treasure - in lean times, the Manticore in Memory Lapse find sustenance from the water in Another Man's Treasure. Oh and the griffins in the end fight are very mean relative to other quests - I reckon one could take the Von 3 Marut (monster fight arena as housing optional in 2030?).

    L7 - Grey Moon's Den: Extermination (bottom chain 4/4) - trap bridge - In the previous iteration of this grey moon quest (3/4), you can send a pet or hire out to the red name boss and not cross the force trap bridge (which also spawns the remaining trolls, including the possible optional shaman who you have to cross BACK across the bridge to fight as he doesn't auto-aggro and come to you). In this one, you HAVE to cross force trap bridge of death at least once. I also have died trying to skip the run by haste potting and jumping from the high up ledge on the right.

    L7 - Scoundrel's Run - the 4 earth elemental spawn. Hirelings / summons / cc / pray they're not champs!

    L7 - TOEE Pt 2 - End fight - I did do this on Hardcore and I'd say my odds were 70/30 at best - but my tactics are better now (circle kite close to Zuggy so you can definitely see the shelter mushrooms when they spawn). I'll fish for a defence shrine next season.

    L8 - Slavers' part 1 - the poison traps are very rough as evasion doesn't help. If you get a 3x3 poison pressure plate trap, that's a dead character if they're anywhere near it when an enemy walks on it.

    L8 - Tomb of the Shadow King - there are 2 sometimes-spawning possible traps that demand characters walking through a LOT of spikes to reach the box - I think one's heading north, and the other's in the left corridor in the south. I was ready to recall and reset if either spawned.

    L8ish - Threnal / The Prisoner / Xorian Cypher - Tharaak Hounds are insane at this level - they're stealthy and become one-shot snipe killers with champ attributes. A bad (read 'cruelty'+) champ hound with Cyclonic Breath is a complete death sentence with very little warning / ability to do something about it. I was more scared of a stealthed champ hound one shotting me than beholders by a substantial margin. Cyclonic Breath could use a reflex save / evasion / ... something. I died on one of these and my combat log was madness; I was on either Elite or R1 and got hit for >200 then a (10 second?) dot for 80 a pop. I wasn't even mad at myself; it was just an 'okay' I'm dead.

    L10 - Fresh-baked Dreams - good nerfs already - nice one on this as the problems you identified (specific spells and the earth eles) were the issue!

    L10 - Invitation to Dinner - very specifically the Cellar Icon of Ravenloft Variant with the oozes. It's pretty foul unless you're an AoE spellcaster. Oh and the Demons of Hatred in the very first fight in Strahd's organ room. I reckon they'll have racked up a serious kill count on hardcore.

    L10 - Black and Blue - I heard the end boss DoT damage 'get hit and you die' levels of high.

    L11 - Raven at the Door - I think this is more a bug than challenge issue - spectres can cast 'Spectral Strike' from absolutely anywhere; including prior areas. So in the golem fight, if you have left spectres alive anywhere else that aggro'd you in the level, you're copping 'Spectral Strikes'. It's pretty unintuitive - and when the door to the end fight is right there, going through to skip the disappearing and reappearing spectres, not knowing it's one-way and they'll be able to hit you from the previous area is tempting.

    L11 - Tomb of the Unhallowed - final fight with the mummy, dolurrh debuff and random mobs from everywhere up above... it's just really rough and I remember dying here a bit back in the day. It was worse than I remembered on HC!

    L13 - Blockade Buster - the explosions from the ship on the right kill you if you're on the ship in the middle. There might be other weirdness too. It just... is scary as you don't know what insta-death bugs might be in there. Next season I'll be setting crazy high timers and /sleep-ing on the raft.

    L13 - Foundation of Discord - the End Fight with the elemental spawns - unlucky champs are terrifying. It's kind of similar to the Scoundrel's Run where you just pray it's not a whole bunch of death since a failed Earth Ele save with a bunch of other insta-summoned mobs is a deadly combo.

    L14 - Toxic Treatment - end fight is foul without a biggish group. I lost one toon here.

    L14 - Crucible - the swim is what it is and I hope it doesn't change. This is still a legit 'you might die here' quest though.

    L16 - Spinner of Shadows - the Spinner herself is seriously mean at level. The fort bypass (I think?) + crits + strong demon venom are rough. I will be doing this solo next season so I can definitely grab the magic vulnerability ointment + reduce the damage.

    L16 - Mask of Deception - the trap run back is... interesting!

    L18 - Terminal Delirium - I think the mirror room is the most difficult single objective to do in any heroic quest without dying.

    L18 - Demon's Den - see top!

    L19 - A New Invasion - The end fight - I had one unexpected trip to the beautiful Sharn Cliffside, then the second time was fine. It's very rough with the air ele, barbazu and chains.

    L19 - What Goes Up - The end fight again - specifically the 'everyone's knocked down and takes lightning damage' thing he does (now?). I survived but wasn't stoked about it.

    Explorer - Subterraene - Garamol fight - that mystery sudden anti-grav up through horrid wilting traps repeatedly is both pretty odd and dangerous. I appreciate this is probably the lowest of low priorities and I bet he has 0 confirmed kills on HC. I can testify it was nearly one at least!

    I'll flag that I was really dreading Precious Cargo due to the 'you're dead now' bug and I kind of hope this gets fixed by next HC season. This was in my mind even before it actually happened to - I think Dreadlock on the forums - on the HC server.
    Last edited by Deathdefy; 12-09-2019 at 08:46 AM.
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  4. #324
    Community Member Drunkendex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    L10 - Black and Blue - I heard the end boss DoT damage 'get hit and you die' levels of high.
    Not on HC but I had heroic elite boss dot lvl 30 ranger with full ele resist buffs in 5 seconds from full hp to 0.

    I'd pay for a chance to see my own face at that time.

    combat log showed him dotting for several hundred acid damage per tick.

    Again, it was heroic elite run.

  5. #325
    Community Member DYWYPI's Avatar
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    The only time I've had any issues with timing the lightening traps within 'Recovering the Lost Tome', is if I have had severe lag spikes. Otherwise they are easy to avoid if you plan the angles of your runs to the corners. If you lack the required INT for those runes even after buffs consider bringing a Hireling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    [...] L2 - Recovering the Lost Tome - it's a dice roll even timing the lightning and having the int for the runes.

    [...]

    L8ish - Threnal / The Prisoner / Xorian Cypher - Tharaak Hounds are insane at this level - they're stealthy and become one-shot snipe killers with champ attributes. A bad (read 'cruelty'+) champ hound with Cyclonic Breath is a complete death sentence with very little warning / ability to do something about it. I was more scared of a stealthed champ hound one shotting me than beholders by a substantial margin. ...
    The Thaarak Hounds and Hound of Madness Hellhounds, do hit exceptionally hard with 'untyped damage' via Cyclonic Blast I believe a 'Reflex save' is meant to reduce the damage. If your Spot is high, usually you can see stealthy creatures. Failing that, are you aware there are other tactics, e.g. using the 'Summon monster' scroll, to help "uncover" the sneaky hounds or distract them (or sacrificial hire). At a pinch you might be able to use Diplomacy, which can highlight their location with the "yellow diplomacy graphic effect" over their heads, etc. :-)
    Last edited by DYWYPI; 12-10-2019 at 08:41 AM. Reason: Typos.

  6. #326
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkendex View Post
    Not on HC but I had heroic elite boss dot lvl 30 ranger with full ele resist buffs in 5 seconds from full hp to 0.

    I'd pay for a chance to see my own face at that time.

    combat log showed him dotting for several hundred acid damage per tick.

    Again, it was heroic elite run.
    We have found a strategy for that, but still need very high electric resists, the dragon cant hit well around the pillars, need to learn its animation and have decent intimidate tho.

    Not saying the dot is fine, just wanted to share a tactic we used on high reaper "successfully", it took hours and dozens of deaths, so i would hardly classify it a success, but it was our own fault to enter on high reaper.

  7. #327
    Community Member TitusOvid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoChris View Post
    Just ran through Ravensloft again this life, and I want to point out that Mad Tea Party is *crazy* hard for the amount of XP that you get. Even with all the optional tasks, its 2/3's the XP of Raven at the Door or Oath of Vengeance , and takes twice as long as Raven and 3 times as long as Oath. And the Archers spamming Entangle and Snare is insta-death for weak casters. The strength DC of the snare must be much higher than it should be.
    I am not saying this doesn't need adjustments but the quests gets exceptionally easier if you hit the offensive/defensive altar on a nearby isle to the north before you step into the quest. This is the only altar to my knowledge that is always present. It is on the east side of the center isles straight to the north.
    You need to wait till all people are in the wilderness before you hit the altar. If players are missing they won't get the buff.

    Cheers,
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  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Not to be that guy but this was fixed with an effect cooldown several years ago. Are you still experiencing this behavior?
    someone may have answered by now, but this still happens. I'll try to note in the future where and what. I know that a champ water elemental stacked dots on me with it's debuff a few weeks ago, and I've had a few magic missile deaths like 100 force+ 100 fire, 100 force+ 100 fire, 100 force+ 100 fire, 100 force+ 100 fire, 100 force+ 100 fire hits when I forget shield.

  9. #329
    Forum witchdoctor Hobgoblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    someone may have answered by now, but this still happens. I'll try to note in the future where and what. I know that a champ water elemental stacked dots on me with it's debuff a few weeks ago, and I've had a few magic missile deaths like 100 force+ 100 fire, 100 force+ 100 fire, 100 force+ 100 fire, 100 force+ 100 fire, 100 force+ 100 fire hits when I forget shield.
    to add to this, i had a champ deal acid and poison damage to me. it was in spies, level 20 character. it was a water elemental it added a stack of each 3 times for a total of 6 stacks. then the next shot only added 1 of each.

    just some data
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  10. #330
    Community Member mikameow's Avatar
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    Thumbs down You can do better.

    This thread is a disaster. Flimsy I've seen you now not once but three times start ragebait threads lording your dev power over the players and further dividing the already fracturing community.
    First it was If I Can't Farm Amber I Quit.
    Then it was Clickbait Titles Aren't Productive.
    And here you are at it again. The tone with which you approached this thread does nothing to help DDO, the dev team as a whole, or the playerbase. Maybe you think it's funny and maybe some other people do too but at this point but it's destructive to the game I and many others in this thread love and divisive to the forum community and I feel quite strongly that your forum posting privileges should be revoked before you can do any more harm. I don't expect anything of the kind to happen, but I feel compelled to point out how unprofessional your conduct is all the same.
    As for the content of the thread, quite aside from its tone I feel that it completely misses the mark. I'm a mediocre player at best but even for me the game feels easier than it used to be, far too easy, and I've seen many of the games most skilled players move on due to lack of challenge. Further reducing the difficulty of quests that remain unusually challenging is absolutely the wrong approach for player retention and satisfaction. If you really cared about that you'd fix the balance mess created by Update 42 Patch 4, hire competent writers to make more complex and interesting quests lore wise(The massive philosophical questions about life and death raised by epic Orchard to my eyes at least represent a high point in DDO's writing), and stop adding fuel to the fire of player rage at every possible opportunity.

  11. #331

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    Quote Originally Posted by LightBear View Post
    How I imagine Flimsy would rock out!
    I ain't got nothin' on her. Mad respect.

  12. #332
    Community Member ahpook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikameow View Post
    ...
    To be clear. This poster does not speak for me. I do not want to see dev's get kicked off forums. I could support a title for flimsy to emphasize his sarcastic provocateur nature.

  13. #333
    The Bashful Balladeer nazgul748's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahpook View Post
    To be clear. This poster does not speak for me. I do not want to see dev's get kicked off forums. I could support a title for flimsy to emphasize his sarcastic provocateur nature.
    Same here. Personally, I really enjoy Flimsy's posts and sense of humor.
    Last edited by nazgul748; 12-17-2019 at 11:52 PM.

  14. #334
    Community Member MasterKernel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    If you want to play that quest the same way you can. Just recall if you kill too many of the miners.

    Now, instead of failing you outright, the miners you save are worth extra XP. The main gimmick of the quest is still there, you're trying to protect mobs that are initially hostile to you.

    You get the carrot instead of the stick.

    You liked the stick better?

    <further snark withheld>
    Yep. This "nerfing" = kill all the fun.
    Just as I've predicted it would.

    I doubt any of the hard, really hard, quests are going to get any change whatsoever, but everything else would be cut into this boring 'rush-forward-kill-everything' type of gameplay of the later years.

    Should we be prepared for the disappearance of the puzzles from the quests, 'cos some find it 'hard to turn several squares to get a matching pattern', or you'll let the puzzles live this time ? >_>

  15. #335
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKernel View Post
    Should we be prepared for the disappearance of the puzzles from the quests, 'cos some find it 'hard to turn several squares to get a matching pattern', or you'll let the puzzles live this time ? >_>
    Puzzles and doors should have hitpoints so we can headbash and break them with high enough Strength... details of consequences TBD.

  16. #336
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DYWYPI View Post
    The Thaarak Hounds and Hound of Madness Hellhounds, do hit exceptionally hard with 'untyped damage' via Cyclonic Blast I believe a 'Reflex save' is meant to reduce the damage. If your Spot is high, usually you can see stealthy creatures. Failing that, are you aware there are other tactics, e.g. using the 'Summon monster' scroll, to help "uncover" the sneaky hounds or distract them (or sacrificial hire). At a pinch you might be able to use Diplomacy, which can highlight their location with the "yellow diplomacy graphic effect" over their heads, etc. :-)
    I might flag the specific hounds I saw kill people on hardcore I don't think it's strictly a 'git gud' situation. I know I flagged them being stealthed as part of the problem but it's more just that the damage is bonkers. I almost mentioned in the OP that Ice Flensers are nearly as scary as hounds due to Polar Ray but you can fire shield scroll so they're not as bad since you need to mess up to die.

    1)
    My death was in the Threnal quest, 'Open the library door because the Fire Reaver you killed when you discovered the library last quest is alive again and has shut the door'.

    There's a section, just past the 'pull 5 levers to open a door' where you are in a large area with a bunch of mephits surrounding a fenced in pool in the middle, a closed door is on the right, and a ramp/stairs that lead up to the lever that opens the door are on the left.
    There's also a Hound near that lever.

    I knew there was a Hound up there.
    I knew I'd have the Spot to see him/her, and s/he'd be near the lever.
    I knew I still had to run straight(ish) toward him/her and there was a chance he/she'd be a champ and Cyclonic Blast my face without a good chance to dodge it as this area is literally designed for this encounter.
    He/She was a champ and cyclonic blasted my face and I died.
    I feel like that Hound just gets to shoot his/her shot.
    It's not crazy that s/he does; it's just Cyclonic Blast is a bit overtuned.

    2)
    The spectacular mass murder of 3 of my party members in Xoriat Cypher.

    I got roasted for using the 'co.....' word last thread so I'll just say there had been sub-optimal play with the idea of 'ensuring survival'. We got to the last door. Tactics were discussed. My usual tactic is 'run in and jump around so I don't get cyclonic blasted in the face by 5 hounds at once'. I stated this. This tactic was not approved because we're on HardCore and it's too dangerous. The party concluded that we would 'range' the encounter.

    The door opened. Pew pew bolts were fired. Blammmmmm multiple awesome cyclonic blasts came through the door murdering half the party. It was amazing and awesome and a perfect example of why the Hardcore server is phenomenal.



    These ones I didn't see anyone die on, but:
    -the triple spawn in The Prisoner is rough, as is
    -the (50/50 E/W side) sneak dog on the sides of Xoriat Cypher.
    -Invaders is a triple threat of murderous types, but in my opinion the dogs are the scariest bit.



    Totally unrelated note as I'm up to date on the thread now and it's moved on a little
    I really like these threads. The loot/quest/general feedback ones where we all post our nonsense hot takes are great. I do post in them sometimes, not really thinking any will be taken up, but I try and sell it as I think most feedback is sincerely believed by the posters. 1% of changes might be used though and it reassures you the devs have read the feedback; even if they reject most of it - obvs fine - they are genuinely assessing it. This is one of those I think. Like - the posting and asking for input on a pretty general topic is really good; even if you don't take up my desperate call to nerf the spectre at the end of Chamber of Insanity because it's not actually very hard. Which leads me to, roasting the devs personally while putting forward otherwise reasonable feedback you genuinely want considered is madness and I love it.
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  17. #337

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    Which leads me to, roasting the devs personally while putting forward otherwise reasonable feedback you genuinely want considered is madness and I love it.
    I want to mention that I did not expect 17 pages of feedback from this thread, you all went above and beyond.

    The other thing to consider is that I have limited time towards improving old quests during the development cycle between crafting new experiences for you to explore, exploit and exterminate. I'm already elbows deep in the next update, and I don't have the time to fix each and every pet peeve out there, as it turns out. But your opinions have been heard, and when I have time to fix another thing I'll just go down one of many, many lists here, cherry-picking the worst of the worst.

    Several of you brought to my attention your extreme aversion to such changes, stating that our content is too easy already, that we shouldn't make it even simpler. Your opinion matters too, because that's valid feedback: "Don't touch anything!" I'm picking up what you're putting down.

    I don't believe any true reconciliation is possible between these two groups of opinions.

    That being said, the best thing I can do is exercise caution and my best judgement when fixing things to preserve challenges in some manner and leaving enough teeth in the quests to keep the playerbase awake while zerging through the content. Of course I realize that overnerfing something is not the same as fixing it to be better, clearly some balance between unfair and fun must be maintained. The truth is in the middle.

    So, in closing, nobody's taking out the puzzles. The fixes we make will be few and far between, addressing the most egregious balance and pain-point concerns.

  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    So, in closing, nobody's taking out the puzzles. The fixes we make will be few and far between, addressing the most egregious balance and pain-point concerns.
    Thanks for that, well said. But, it begs the question, whomever wrote this, where is the real FlimsyFirewood and what are your demands for his release?

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  19. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    That being said, the best thing I can do is exercise caution and my best judgement when fixing things to preserve challenges in some manner and leaving enough teeth in the quests to keep the playerbase awake while zerging through the content. Of course I realize that overnerfing something is not the same as fixing it to be better, clearly some balance between unfair and fun must be maintained. The truth is in the middle.
    I think as long as you remove stuff that does so much damage that it insta-kills a decently geared player at level then it's fine. An example would be the end boss of legendary Tempest Spine. He does around 4-5k damage with his auto-attacks if I remember correctly. That's just plain ridiculous. Challenge is good, but there has to be something you can do about it.

  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I want to mention that I did not expect 17 pages of feedback from this thread, you all went above and beyond.

    The other thing to consider is that I have limited time towards improving old quests during the development cycle between crafting new experiences for you to explore, exploit and exterminate. I'm already elbows deep in the next update, and I don't have the time to fix each and every pet peeve out there, as it turns out. But your opinions have been heard, and when I have time to fix another thing I'll just go down one of many, many lists here, cherry-picking the worst of the worst.

    Several of you brought to my attention your extreme aversion to such changes, stating that our content is too easy already, that we shouldn't make it even simpler. Your opinion matters too, because that's valid feedback: "Don't touch anything!" I'm picking up what you're putting down.

    I don't believe any true reconciliation is possible between these two groups of opinions.

    That being said, the best thing I can do is exercise caution and my best judgement when fixing things to preserve challenges in some manner and leaving enough teeth in the quests to keep the playerbase awake while zerging through the content. Of course I realize that overnerfing something is not the same as fixing it to be better, clearly some balance between unfair and fun must be maintained. The truth is in the middle.

    So, in closing, nobody's taking out the puzzles. The fixes we make will be few and far between, addressing the most egregious balance and pain-point concerns.
    In my opinion I think some of the hard isn't really "hard" but it's also the only thing that can beat some players due to build, past lives, etc.

    Being spam blasted with comet fall with no way to predict nor react isn't a "challenge" in my opinion. Sudden groups of high DR casters that spew endless AE blasts which only reflex+evasion can save you from also isn't really a challenge, it's a breeze for some builds and instant death for others - even with pre-knowledge! DDO is in an especially tough spot due to the huge disparity in not just build but power even within the same build from past lives and gear choices.

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