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  1. #301

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    Quote Originally Posted by TitusOvid View Post
    How about you nerf Let Sleeping Dust Lie to no fail except death. And don't forget heroic Abbot. A raise shrine in the middle of the island would be ideal. I got a proposition for ToEE P2, too. Super cool and fun: You enter, music starts to play, narator starts his monologue and right before you is this big red "win ddo" button. I mean , we've gotten the item already in the store. Once you hit it, you complete quest, get xp and it saves you the annoying runs. Every 3rd completion guarantees a named item. Awesome ideas, I know.

    And as a favor to you, I can dance as good as Lynn.

    Cheers,
    Titus.
    On it. Start dancing.

  2. #302
    Hero, Mo Bro H'ro, & MB Super-H'ro ComicRelief's Avatar
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    Default Decaying Carrot

    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    If you want to play that quest the same way you can. Just recall if you kill too many of the miners.

    Now, instead of failing you outright, the miners you save are worth extra XP. The main gimmick of the quest is still there, you're trying to protect mobs that are initially hostile to you.

    You get the carrot instead of the stick.

    You liked the stick better?

    <further snark withheld>
    Prior to the change, the biggest obstacle to overcome wasn't the "don't kill the miners", per se, it was the guys banging on the gongs, creating the sonic 'traps'. There are enough gong-bangers that you couldn't kill all of them to stop the sonics, or you'd fail (I was killed more times trying to navigate past the gong-bangers than anything else in there, including the [spoiler redacted]). With this change, you can now just kill all the gong-bangers and only lose some optional xp (which will decay to zero permanently now, anyway - still really miffed about this, but that is another topic). I'm not saying I liked the stick better, but I can see why some people don't really like the change, as it (wait for it...) nerfs the content into the ground.
    "...At least it tells us they understand our language; they're just not willing to speak to us in it. -Who knew they were French?"

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Komradkillingmachine View Post
    It usually takes me around 30-40 seconds after the drop to find her and I don't kill a single mob.

    You only need to aggro all assassins in the area and then she spawns.
    I'm not saying this is the only method that works, but I'm saying its a method that always works. There may be multiple triggers that can cause her to spawn, but this a quick and guaranteed one. I'd also question whether your claim is really accurate or not, because its completely at odds with my own experience (through 50+ runs in Heroic....grr I will have you, Family Recruit Sigil!) and everyone else who's posted about it.

    I'm also quite sure the process is entirely necessary. I've tried running the route without fighting anything, no Lady. I've tried killing the mobs without running the route, no Lady. There's a spawn point right next to the arch, and I've seen her appear right behind me when I walk through it, so that's definitely part of the trigger. If aggroing the Assassins was the only trigger necessary, then she would've already been there.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    If you want to play that quest the same way you can. Just recall if you kill too many of the miners.

    Now, instead of failing you outright, the miners you save are worth extra XP. The main gimmick of the quest is still there, you're trying to protect mobs that are initially hostile to you.

    You get the carrot instead of the stick.

    You liked the stick better?

    <further snark withheld>
    You read my mind

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    My current EDH lineup:

    Rafiq of the Many (cEDH stax)
    Atraxa, Praetor's Voice (superfriends)
    Sen Triplets (control/stax)
    Sram, Senior Edificer (current favorite - equipment tribal. Just missing a SoFI)
    Rhys, the Redeemed (spiritual successor to the elf tribal deck I had back in high school)
    +1
    It is always interesting to start up a conversation inside a dungeon and vaguely mention Magic the Gathering, then listen as multiple people respond with their tales of glorious decks...
    (Former Delegate for WotC)

  6. #306
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    I like the change to Shrieking Mines. I still won't ever play it though. I'm not sure what anyone was thinking when they designed the Restless Isles.

  7. #307
    Community Member Ovrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComicRelief View Post
    Prior to the change, the biggest obstacle to overcome wasn't the "don't kill the miners", per se, it was the guys banging on the gongs, creating the sonic 'traps'. There are enough gong-bangers that you couldn't kill all of them to stop the sonics, or you'd fail (I was killed more times trying to navigate past the gong-bangers than anything else in there, including the [spoiler redacted]). With this change, you can now just kill all the gong-bangers and only lose some optional xp (which will decay to zero permanently now, anyway - still really miffed about this, but that is another topic). I'm not saying I liked the stick better, but I can see why some people don't really like the change, as it (wait for it...) nerfs the content into the ground.
    ...that's not true. From memory, I think there's 4 "gong-bangers" in the whole quest. And the quest (used to) fail when you kill 11 miners. So yeah, you totally can wipe them out, it just lowers your margin for mistakes. Also, I hate xp-decay as much as everyone else, but it doesn't matter in here; nobody runs this quest more than once per life.

    I think removing these old fail conditions is always a step in the right direction. It sucks when that one person in your party cause you to lose 20 mins because he forgot to turn off colors of the queen, or to remove an item that summons minions as a guard.
    We want more Monster Manuals.

  8. #308
    The Hatchery GeneralDiomedes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GramercyRiff View Post
    I like the change to Shrieking Mines. I still won't ever play it though. I'm not sure what anyone was thinking when they designed the Restless Isles.

    I am disappointed in the shrieking mines change primarily because the largest annoyance in running the quest - actually getting to it - is still there. So a waste of effort.

    Just allow teleporting straight off or allow teleporting with a sigil of dal quor which at least persists through lives. And remove all locked doors that require keys.

    Don’t get me wrong - I love the restless isles and they are one of the most beautiful areas in the game - but running and mazes.
    Last edited by GeneralDiomedes; 12-06-2019 at 02:19 PM.

  9. #309
    Community Member TitusOvid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    On it. Start dancing.
    Give me a reason.
    Beste, Titus. | playing since 2009 | Don't do the fun wrong | New to Orien? Join the ingame Titan Channel | Soko Irrlicht freut sich immer über neue Mitglieder | Deutscher Discord | Orien Raiding Discord Toons: Titusovid , Bruder, Upload, Zzed, (Rubbel)

  10. #310
    Community Member TitusOvid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    If you want to play that quest the same way you can. Just recall if you kill too many of the miners.

    Now, instead of failing you outright, the miners you save are worth extra XP. The main gimmick of the quest is still there, you're trying to protect mobs that are initially hostile to you.

    You get the carrot instead of the stick.

    You liked the stick better?

    <further snark withheld>
    Optional xp is no challenge. And it sucks in a lot of cases so it isn't even the cherry on top. The only challenge you seem to be able to create in this game are bigger groups of mobs and hp monsters. Lame, sir. Lame.

    Put on the snark for all I care. I expect as much from you.
    Beste, Titus. | playing since 2009 | Don't do the fun wrong | New to Orien? Join the ingame Titan Channel | Soko Irrlicht freut sich immer über neue Mitglieder | Deutscher Discord | Orien Raiding Discord Toons: Titusovid , Bruder, Upload, Zzed, (Rubbel)

  11. #311
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TitusOvid View Post
    Optional xp is no challenge. And it sucks in a lot of cases so it isn't even the cherry on top. The only challenge you seem to be able to create in this game are bigger groups of mobs and hp monsters. Lame, sir. Lame.

    Put on the snark for all I care. I expect as much from you.
    I think the point is that not everyone is like you, I have seen many players who simply stop playing when a quest completely fails and they would have to repeat the whole thing again.
    I also usually shook it off and just tried it again...
    And I also have some nice memories when I did Threnal east part 3 and the quest failed when Coyle was killed, even more, when it was not even possible to heal or buff him for a certain time (some kind of bug).
    Now you dont fail this quest even if Coyle is effectively killed and honestly I'm also not sad that it works this way.

    It is more a quite reasonable design decision if quests cannot suddenly completely fail and there is no need to repeat them all over again from the start.
    Quests can be also challenging and impossible to finish (if you are not good/smart enough) without such an instant fail component.
    And such an instant fail can be especially frustrating when it is more a matter of luck if you fail or not, like in protection missions suddenly a reaper or badass champ spawns and kills your protege and you can do literally nothing to prevent it.

    I'm more worried because the map in Shrieking Mines is now less "confusing" because I think the original map was also not that hard to learn...
    A game should not be too easy/simple.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
    -Immanuel Kant-

    "Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has."
    -René Descartes-

  12. #312
    Community Member TitusOvid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chacka_DDO View Post
    snip
    A game should not be too easy/simple.
    I know I don't represent the majority of the players. And I know a lot of them want to just step in and run through. This is the case in the majority of the quests, imo.
    This quest just needed a slightly different playstyle than cleave/blast - move on. Quest design gets more mindless every new pack. And now they start to change the old ones, too. I don't mind change but let it be a creative one.

    Cheers,
    Titus.
    Beste, Titus. | playing since 2009 | Don't do the fun wrong | New to Orien? Join the ingame Titan Channel | Soko Irrlicht freut sich immer über neue Mitglieder | Deutscher Discord | Orien Raiding Discord Toons: Titusovid , Bruder, Upload, Zzed, (Rubbel)

  13. #313
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    I don't know if it's been brought up already, and I'm not particularly keen on reading through the 16 current pages to check
    But the Mines of Tethyamar Heroic version, despite being level 15, seem to be scaled at around 17 - 19ish. To the point where I can be pleasantly running through my quests of the same level, decide to do the Mines, walk into the first quest, and the first group of drow kill me almost instantly.

    I'm not sure how easy or hard it is to turn down a scale for an entire chain, but that would be my pick. I've tried it on 3 different lives when I hit the appropriate level, had the above situation happen all 3 times, even me thinking "I feel pretty strong this time. This is the time! *Immediate death* Or not." So I just avoid it completely now.
    Server: Thelanis - Characters Main: Rusttttt, Sepiaaaaa, Amethysttttt - Other Alts: Flameeeee, Siennaaaaa, Rougeeeee, Roseeeee, Wineeeee, Marigolddddd, Zaffreeeee, Wisteriaaaaa, Scarlettttt, Rufousssss, Lilaccccc, Puceeeee, Azureeeee, Orchiddddd, Sinopiaaaaa, Amaranthhhhh, Violettttt, Umberrrrr, Tawnyyyyy, And More! Literally too many for the Signature!

  14. #314
    Staggering LightBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    On it. Start dancing.
    How I imagine Flimsy would rock out!

  15. #315
    Community Member Nyata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    If you want to play that quest the same way you can. Just recall if you kill too many of the miners.

    Now, instead of failing you outright, the miners you save are worth extra XP. The main gimmick of the quest is still there, you're trying to protect mobs that are initially hostile to you.

    You get the carrot instead of the stick.

    You liked the stick better?

    <further snark withheld>
    but but... I like snark!

    honestly though, restless isles has much more annoying issues than not killing the miners, unless the wilderness got changed to a raid zone or a direct teleport got added while I wasn't playing. I think I can count on one hand how often I ran that raid, ever. let alone learning it. (and before someone says it: yes yes, reading the wiki is all good and well, but I am more of a hands-on learner - in addition some part of me is still convinced there has to be a 'proper' way to solve the bridges puzzle that does not essentially require hopping out with a Ddoor)

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by GramercyRiff View Post
    I like the change to Shrieking Mines. I still won't ever play it though. I'm not sure what anyone was thinking when they designed the Restless Isles.
    I agree.

    Variety is nice and all, but having no chance to do quest solo just because you play build that can't avoid splash damage is not fun.

    Another quest that could get similar treatment is Let sleeping dust lie. just check wiki site for it, it's full of advice's on how to exploit not reading journal to postpone failure condition.

    In general it's nice quest and I've run it with archer ranger while getting bonus chest at end, but run with barb that focuses on glancing blows was nightmare, especially since he could one shot spider even on elite. (and it was not crit even)

  17. #317
    Community Member ChicagoChris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    Hey folks,

    We have been looking at interesting data about player deaths in the hardcore server. There are a few quests that spike above and beyond the difficulty curve at their intended level. By way of example, Stopping the Sahuagin is one of the deadliest quests in the game, and is being nerfed as we speak. A whole lot of people died to the ice trap in the end, and I should know, because I made it, and also died while explaining how it works to my wife and friends. On a rogue. While jumping up and down in front of it.

    To disambiguate, "nerfing" in this case means making the quest easier, not harder.

    While we are addressing obvious concerns and I personally take the nerf bat to some of these, we may overlook some of the least popular quests due to their data being less obvious (not a lot of people play them > not a big spike in deaths).

    Please use this thread to point out problematic quests and areas within them, that are more difficult/annoying than the rest of similar quests in the same level range. I will personally appreciate any screenshots and /loc strings of problematic areas, which makes it a lot easier to deliver swift nerf justice to the offenders.

    The point here is not to make the game a cakewalk, but to smooth out the difficulty curve from quest to quest. I'm not touching most quests, just the outliers, the ones who go out of their way to kill or annoy you.

    Bring out your pet peeves!
    Just ran through Ravensloft again this life, and I want to point out that Mad Tea Party is *crazy* hard for the amount of XP that you get. Even with all the optional tasks, its 2/3's the XP of Raven at the Door or Oath of Vengeance , and takes twice as long as Raven and 3 times as long as Oath. And the Archers spamming Entangle and Snare is insta-death for weak casters. The strength DC of the snare must be much higher than it should be.
    Farog on Khyber

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoChris View Post
    Just ran through Ravensloft again this life, and I want to point out that Mad Tea Party is *crazy* hard for the amount of XP that you get. Even with all the optional tasks, its 2/3's the XP of Raven at the Door or Oath of Vengeance , and takes twice as long as Raven and 3 times as long as Oath. And the Archers spamming Entangle and Snare is insta-death for weak casters. The strength DC of the snare must be much higher than it should be.
    I agree on this, although my biggest issue is fireball spam by red abishai, this is only quest I ever had issue with them, and I had them rip my hires apart quite fast, while in other packs featuring red abishai they were never this strong.

  19. #319
    Hatchery Hero Dark_Helmet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes View Post
    I am disappointed in the shrieking mines change primarily because the largest annoyance in running the quest - actually getting to it - is still there. So a waste of effort.

    Just allow teleporting straight off or allow teleporting with a sigil of dal quor which at least persists through lives. And remove all locked doors that require keys.

    Don’t get me wrong - I love the restless isles and they are one of the most beautiful areas in the game - but running and mazes.
    Having to go that far to fail is a major reason I never, ever run these quests (besides the Titan tactics). If they fixed the outside to let us get directly to the quest, I would almost agree that the no-fail change is too much. Almost. I still find it too much for newer players. I like the idea that more XP is granted when you do the objectives that take more time. That work for your carrot should be encouraged (dance for your food, monkey!)
    Oh, that's easy. I didn't farm them. I just cheated. -Meghan
    Quote Originally Posted by 404error View Post
    lol, I didnt give it a QA pass.

  20. #320
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    Something that needs nerfing generally: Bear Traps.
    They have a non-standard "save", that's an abilty check, with no "saving throw" or level bonuses applying.
    So nearly everyone automatically fails, as the DC is way too high considering how much lower an ability check is versus a saving throw bonus. {also: Heroism and Greater Heroism are supposed to boost ability checks, but do not).

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