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  1. #61
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loromir View Post
    Exaggerate much??? "tens of thousands"???
    Considering we knew what the concurrency was before the API was shut down, theres no exaggeration there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013 (when concurrency was ~4x what it is today)

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tchtutax View Post
    Ok, but we're all human, suffering from the same faulty DNA, right? The dev life cycle of a company such as Boeing (or any high availability, low fault tolerance org for that matter.. medical industry comes to mind) where people could die from mistakes, could not in any way appease the players of DDO... who would move onto the next shiny object if they don't get a quarterly release (yours truly included). In a company like Boeing, you don't plan to release on your first release candidate... or even the 3rd if you're wise. Rigorous testing needs to be done... people will make people mistakes, and if you're the one calling the shots and tell the investors you're going to go live with release candidate one, you might as well start looking for a new job... because even the best devs will fail to predict everything that will go wrong. And if you are telling me that you are the unicorn who writes code perfectly the first time, every time.. then as one dev to another, and with all respect - I simply do not believe you.

    What you're suggesting almost sounds like you prefer we wait a year until we get a finely oiled machine that has been rigorously tested and polished until it's bug free and shiny. From what I can see, their business model cannot handle that and neither can the player base. As devs, it's really easy to stand on the podium, spout theory and best practices. However, the business side can sometimes be more art than logic... theory and best practices alone will not support the financial needs of DDO.

    Phrases like "power creep" and "flavor of the month" will never go away in any game. From a business perspective, it simply can't... that's what keeps us interested, and keeps paying the bills. From what I can see, the decisions the devs are making appear well informed and data driven. The Boeing dev and the DDO dev are not as different as you think... they are both talented, and each of them playing to their user base. I think if you and I were in DDO's shoes, looking at the same data they're looking at and consuming the same reports... we would be forced to make similar decisions they're making... whether we liked them or not.

    So I say - bring on the bugs, use those of us who want to test for free on Lamannia, and keep on fighting the good fight! Anyone with the intelligence to log into a forum and create a post should have the ability to communicate a grievance in a constructive manner as well. It's rare that game devs participate in community discussion.... keep slinging the poo, you crazy monkeys, and watch how quickly that goes away.
    Considering I've participated and directed expert systems from concept to production in 120 days, your reflections are more indicative of a static notion of an industry that's greatly changed over the last two decades from the old waterfall days. How you do software is just as important as what you do, arguably more, and a vast majority of systems can be overhauled completely on a rolling basis through an effective execution of cleavage points if there is skilled enough staff to identify where and how to decouple them. Don't have to be perfect to be light years better, just have to be adaptable to how software has changed over time. Bug free isn't the goal, effective execution of customer requests within acceptable timelines with minimal risk profiles is.

    True engine building diverged from game development during the 90s. Understanding how to model in your head, and then in the machine, the integration of hundreds if not thousands of interlocking systems is a far different skill set knowing how to keep your mob script functioning. So no, I'd really not expect the developers creating content to be working on an engine overhaul. That doesn't mean mgmt shouldn't plan for one, or creatively figure out how to fund or incorporate it into releases over time. If they can't figure out how to fund that, why are they even part of the business (then find a software expert skilled enough to determine how to implement it)? All software systems should be consider temporary, with some more temporary than others.

    Data can tell you whatever you want it to tell you. How one interprets said data varies wildly over any subset of data consumers however.

    What you're suggesting, and this I've encountered over and over ever since getting involved in software, is that you can't swap the engine out of a car while it's driving at 100mph, and so the only option is to stop the car to do so. That's factually, creatively, and provably, untrue. All I've ever asked, and you can dig through my post history to confirm this, is that they start thinking creatively about how to solve the root difficulties that are affecting DDO and they will likely find a large number of current complaints will vanish like an invisibility clickie. That they don't address these creatively is a choice they are making, without ascribing any motive to why. If they think they cannot, then that is a failure of imagination.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    I don't see how this an excuse for rude or abusive behavior. I'm the practice manager for a medical practice where my wife is a surgeon. We deal with situations where a mistake can mean serious injury or death constantly. Guess what, if patients are excessively rude or abusive to staff or doctors we will release them. I've done it before, and I'll do it again. We're not a psych hospital, it's not our job to deal with your personality disorder. If you can't act appropriately you can find somewhere else to have your surgery done. I don't know where people get this idea that because someone is an employee that they have to put up with endless abuse from customers/patients/clients, but it doesn't match my experience anywhere. If you walk into a store and start yelling at employees they're going to ask you to leave. The customer is not always right. Sometimes the customer is an *bleep* and needs to be told to shape up or ship out.
    My point has nothing to do with the adage "the customer is always right". A business, and I own/owned numerous, is free to send any customer packing for any reason whatsoever. But, if you want to be effective at long term goals, a business ought to be able to impartially evaluate their complaint irrespective of whether you send them packing.

    For every inartful customer there is also an inexperienced employee who does not have the necessary skills to handle complaints outside a certain social range. The overwhelming majority of hotheaded customers can be turned into win-win situations assuming the person receiving the complaint has the necessary experience in social interaction and the organization support to do so. But, remember DDO had a broken bug submission process for years, I think it was? What signal does that send to a customer?

    Point being, when any customer situation spirals out of control, there's plenty of blame to go around. Most customers just want to feel heard and acknowledged (outliers aside), and frankly there's also plenty of businesses that do a poor job on both those counts.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tchtutax View Post
    Critical discussion is no problem, and even healthy for development. However, this statement is not that - "Recently the stuff I've seen has been mediocre to awful by comparison".

    This is Poo... A big giant fat poo pile, to be accurate. It does nothing to serve the world and should be corked back up where it came from. Talking with the intent to do nothing other than belittle the achievements of others is pure poo.

    I started this thread to show the devs that the poo slingers are an outspoken minority. I suspect a good portion of the people who have "left" the game did so because we had to grow up and and be adults for a while, rather than being sore over design decisions that were made. This game has persevered through the evolution of a generation, and that's something to be proud of.

    And given the voices of the people who have pitched in, I can see that I'm not the only one who shares this thought. Thanks for fighting the good fight!
    Historically most players that leave an mmo is because of game design changes or something newer comes along that feels like a better game experience. "Recently the stuff I've seen has been mediocre to awful by comparison" is valid feedback. It is not mean, It is their opinion and while I think they are wrong in that opinion, it is valid and the proper words to express their opinion. Paying for the game or not is the ultimate form of feedback and it would be interesting to see just how much money new content has made over older content. or how the last couple of fiscal years have gone for SSG. SSG knows how well they are doing or not between forum feedback and profit and i believe they are doing pretty good.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    My point has nothing to do with the adage "the customer is always right". A business, and I own/owned numerous, is free to send any customer packing for any reason whatsoever. But, if you want to be effective at long term goals, a business ought to be able to impartially evaluate their complaint irrespective of whether you send them packing.

    For every inartful customer there is also an inexperienced employee who does not have the necessary skills to handle complaints outside a certain social range. The overwhelming majority of hotheaded customers can be turned into win-win situations assuming the person receiving the complaint has the necessary experience in social interaction and the organization support to do so. But, remember DDO had a broken bug submission process for years, I think it was? What signal does that send to a customer?

    Point being, when any customer situation spirals out of control, there's plenty of blame to go around. Most customers just want to feel heard and acknowledged (outliers aside), and frankly there's also plenty of businesses that do a poor job on both those counts.
    people tend to forget the customer is always free to take their money elsewhere too, and you really hit the nail on the head. i have seen this so much in customer service heavy jobs such as retail, fast food, and movie theaters.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Pretty much this.

    I'll add that in aggregation, even comments that are 90% troll and 10% substance can have the substance aggregated into the feedback pool and the trolling ignored/discarded. Planning meetings are far more efficient with the proverbial fat trimmed off the source comments so the meat of the source issue can be evaluated anyhow.
    Absolutely.

    One of biggest problem in issue recognition and resolution is ignoring data because one does not agree with the wrapper in which it was presented. One of the most effective techniques for problem-solving is train one's mind to self-edit all spurious wrappers from the important content of a communication and narrow in on only the substance of a communication for mental processing.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    Considering I've participated and directed expert systems from concept to production in 120 days, your reflections are more indicative of a static notion of an industry that's greatly changed over the last two decades from the old waterfall days. How you do software is just as important as what you do, arguably more, and a vast majority of systems can be overhauled completely on a rolling basis through an effective execution of cleavage points if there is skilled enough staff to identify where and how to decouple them. Don't have to be perfect to be light years better, just have to be adaptable to how software has changed over time. Bug free isn't the goal, effective execution of customer requests within acceptable timelines with minimal risk profiles is.

    True engine building diverged from game development during the 90s. Understanding how to model in your head, and then in the machine, the integration of hundreds if not thousands of interlocking systems is a far different skill set knowing how to keep your mob script functioning. So no, I'd really not expect the developers creating content to be working on an engine overhaul. That doesn't mean mgmt shouldn't plan for one, or creatively figure out how to fund or incorporate it into releases over time. If they can't figure out how to fund that, why are they even part of the business (then find a software expert skilled enough to determine how to implement it)? All software systems should be consider temporary, with some more temporary than others.

    Data can tell you whatever you want it to tell you. How one interprets said data varies wildly over any subset of data consumers however.

    What you're suggesting, and this I've encountered over and over ever since getting involved in software, is that you can't swap the engine out of a car while it's driving at 100mph, and so the only option is to stop the car to do so. That's factually, creatively, and provably, untrue. All I've ever asked, and you can dig through my post history to confirm this, is that they start thinking creatively about how to solve the root difficulties that are affecting DDO and they will likely find a large number of current complaints will vanish like an invisibility clickie. That they don't address these creatively is a choice they are making, without ascribing any motive to why. If they think they cannot, then that is a failure of imagination.
    At no point was I debating the feasibility of swapping an engine out of a car without stopping it to do so.... and will courageously run away from that conversation entirely. No thank you. While your statement is a wildly inaccurate takeaway from my original message, it was a pretty creative interpretation. I can't even be mad.

    To paraphrase, I was simply stating that I can understand and appreciate the trials of what the devs on the team are doing. Lynn stuck her neck out and tried her best to appease an angry subsection of the mob and her actions inspired me to tell her and the rest of the team that they're appreciated. That's all there was to the original post.

    And while I'm up here... You guys (looking at you flies on the wall, like myself) should do a better job of recognizing what a jewel Lynnabel is to the community, honestly. I mean c'mon.. her signoff subtitle is "enthusiasm enthusiast". She had a dedicated thread to get responses from users. It got remade and then resurrected in a new thread equally as large and popular. She even says she reads everything in there, but obviously can't respond to everyone.... there's too many of us.

    Try looking at it this way.... If you were at a party where a girl is running around making sure everyone has a steady supply of beer and food and some skedusche comes up and starts screaming at her in the face because the frosty icing on the oatmeal raisin cookie she made for everyone is clumpy, he'd be getting his rear end whooped upon.

    She deserves better than that. The team deserves better than that.

    Humble bragging and saying you could do their job in 120 days with the right team is poor form... especially when you don't have the data they have. Just because the quiet majority aren't taking the time to argue with you doesn't make you right. It just means they have better things to do. The quiet majority are playing, and we're happy.

    Keep up the good work devs!

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    Absolutely.

    One of biggest problem in issue recognition and resolution is ignoring data because one does not agree with the wrapper in which it was presented. One of the most effective techniques for problem-solving is train one's mind to self-edit all spurious wrappers from the important content of a communication and narrow in on only the substance of a communication for mental processing.
    That's a lot of words to say "It's good to be open to constructive criticism". Yes... I agree, but that has nothing to do with this thread really.

    Look... there are huge threads with thousands of views that disprove the devs are "ignoring data". There is a discord app where the devs are having discussions (in real time) with users like us. In these discussions, SteelStar in particular has demonstrated complete candor in why certain things can't be implemented (augment overhaul specifically). They are available. Your assertion that you're being ignored cannot be correct.

    The mounts are cool, btw! Love the new stats page!

  9. #69
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    , I can 100% guarantee you that that the playerbase's harshness does not and will not work in terms of making the game better. All it does is make us devs not want to participate in discussion.

    I can 100% guarantee you and the rest of the devs only listen to a small segment of the forumites. As for the PLAYER BASE you're way off. In-game your reputation is far worse than it is here.

    SSG has slowly taken away the devotion I and many others have for this game. You can take that to the bank. I have, that's why I won't spend another dime here until I see fair and balanced updates to classes and trees, Not this cash-cow mentality you all have.



  10. #70
    Community Member TitusOvid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tchtutax View Post
    At no point was I debating the feasibility of swapping an engine out of a car without stopping it to do so.... and will courageously run away from that conversation entirely. No thank you. While your statement is a wildly inaccurate takeaway from my original message, it was a pretty creative interpretation. I can't even be mad.

    To paraphrase, I was simply stating that I can understand and appreciate the trials of what the devs on the team are doing. Lynn stuck her neck out and tried her best to appease an angry subsection of the mob and her actions inspired me to tell her and the rest of the team that they're appreciated. That's all there was to the original post.

    And while I'm up here... You guys (looking at you flies on the wall, like myself) should do a better job of recognizing what a jewel Lynnabel is to the community, honestly. I mean c'mon.. her signoff subtitle is "enthusiasm enthusiast". She had a dedicated thread to get responses from users. It got remade and then resurrected in a new thread equally as large and popular. She even says she reads everything in there, but obviously can't respond to everyone.... there's too many of us.

    Try looking at it this way.... If you were at a party where a girl is running around making sure everyone has a steady supply of beer and food and some skedusche comes up and starts screaming at her in the face because the frosty icing on the oatmeal raisin cookie she made for everyone is clumpy, he'd be getting his rear end whooped upon.

    She deserves better than that. The team deserves better than that.

    Humble bragging and saying you could do their job in 120 days with the right team is poor form... especially when you don't have the data they have. Just because the quiet majority aren't taking the time to argue with you doesn't make you right. It just means they have better things to do. The quiet majority are playing, and we're happy.

    Keep up the good work devs!
    Tchtutax, I appreciate what you are doing here. But I think you are confusing the situation a bit.
    I can go to that party and have fun with all the people. It would be grant. I would thank that girl for all her efforts but I would try to point out too, that that raisin cookie is just awful because of the icing. I love raisin cookies and to watch her ruin it breaks my heart. So I try to give her pointers. Maybe I am even a great pastry chef but I get ignored. The same thing happens at the next 12 parties. What happens next depends on the pastry chef. Maybe he gets mad, maybe he doesn't sponsor that girls baking classes any more or maybe he stays away from the next parties.

    I don't even say it is the girls fault. Maybe there is a housekeeper that just doesn't get it and buys the wrong ingredients but the party guest doesn't know that. I will happily greet her in the streets and have a good laugh, maybe even go and get a coffee but I won't go t another party of hers.

    What I am trying to say is, if you take criticism personally you are on the losing track. And criticism is not a bad thing. It is like a whiteboard that shows you different viewpoints and possibilities of the same situation. To give and receive criticism in a constructive form has to be learned and you have to have the right environment. Neither is the case here for most subjects. So all sides are at fault.
    The only thing that differs, is, it is SSG's job not the players. If they don't do their jobs good enough, they fail the project. And this is entirely on the management.

    And that is a major point a lot of people are missing. The devs don't run this company. They are important but they are executors not decision-makers. The players have to be aware how to address the right positions, namely the management.
    But how can you communicate something if no one is listening at the other side?

    The game is lacking in many aspects and a lot of players feel helpless because they see but can't do anything. This is not a healthy relationship for either side. And that will hurt the game and everybody involved. The best thing to repair such a state is to start communicating in a constructive way. That does require both sides. The players are at the table but SSG is missing, imo. They just drive by and wave when they get a beverage to go.



    .... This got longer than I thought, my apologies. And I could write so much more...


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  11. #71
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkwier View Post
    Put simply: if you want less criticism, do better. Ravenloft was superb. Recently the stuff I've seen has been mediocre to awful by comparison.
    Might be. But Ravenloft is far too dark for my taste. It is a strange thought that such a harsh setting is considered better than a colourful setting. Well, as a result I won't play Raveloft for a whole while, no matter how superb it is. You can't make me dring the wine no matter how god it tastes if I don't drink wine in general.

    I do own Ravenloft, though. Even did a first quest there. It's just not so appealing to me.



    And, besides, there is a certain believe, especially among PvP people, that bashing and criticising other people makes them perform things better. What always ashonishes of this belief is that these same people do not seem to believe at all that praise doesn't make people become better, only negativees do, like criticism.

    As a result, these people become well known for being negative, because the only thing they post are negatives, even although they might not be so in real life. It's as if positives were something evil. It's as if saying "that cake was very tasty !" was something evil, and saying "that cake was far too big and had brown edges !" was something good.

    Me, I put this way of treating people into my overall theory of "heavymetalization",
    which makes culture, media and people favour negative emotions, dark pictures, ugliness
    and badmouthes everything polite, beautiful, nice, and positive emotions.

    And this is a thing I'm seeing since several years, and it's rather growing.

    Quote Originally Posted by DYWYPI View Post
    I presume you haven't added all the shadows and textures to the new Wilderness as it appeared slightly bright and fairytale. So I suspect that will look a lot better when it gets polished.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fants View Post
    Hey DYWYPI! Since this pack is designed to be more of a Fairytale / Medieval setting, we intentionally made it brighter and more cheery. However you are correct in that the shadows in your game are lacking.
    Thanks for proving that my theory which I call "heavymetalization" is still valid.
    Last edited by Alrik_Fassbauer; 11-01-2019 at 08:16 AM.
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tapper this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this tale."
    English is not my first language - misinterpretations galore !

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loromir View Post
    Wow....that's strong.

    Factoring in flying....I might actually agree with you.

    Sans flying...it's pretty average with decent xp and doesn't even take too long. I can think of plenty better quests...but also plenty worse (If you don't try to fly).

    Opinions vary...and you're entitled to your's.
    The flying is not bad at all... if you are on a caster or ranged. I find it much better flying than walking. I imagine it depends on how one normally plays too. If you use mouse look a lot, the flying is pretty natural.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I'll add that in aggregation, even comments that are 90% troll and 10% substance can have the substance aggregated into the feedback pool and the trolling ignored/discarded. Planning meetings are far more efficient with the proverbial fat trimmed off the source comments so the meat of the source issue can be evaluated anyhow.
    Agreed, but trimming that much fat is also an additional full time employee or several.

    I love the game too. And balance issues have swung wildly recently, but it's not new. It really broke broke when epic level were added, there were so many destiny abilities that worked in unexpected ways and were let go for too long.

    It's not all on the devs either, they have to deal with people. What's the best way to fix one outlier? nerf it. How many players like it when their build gets nerfed? zero. (yes zero. some can accept it and say ok, some don't) The overwhelming response to any nerf is negative. But we all know what happens when all you do is buff, because that's where we are: all old content is trivial. New content is not too hard, people still run it E/R first time through solo.

  14. #74
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    It was a new and different mechanic and I liked it. (Just speaking for myself).
    Heart-stopping for me because I first ran it on the HC server and when the sled vanished from under me I plunged into the inky black void. I thought my toon was dead.
    Last edited by Jerevth; 11-01-2019 at 09:53 AM.
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  15. #75
    Community Member Chilldude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loromir View Post
    Exaggerate much??? "tens of thousands"???
    Are you new here? Do you have any idea how many people used to play DDO? Do you know that the first Crystal Cove event had so many shards (different instances of the game world created when too many players are in a single instance) that players congregate in shards around their character level? Do you know that once upon a time you could fill a raid, any raid, any time of day, in just a few minutes? Do you know that once upon a time it wasn't at all unusual to have multiple LFMs for the same raid up at the same time? Do you know that once upon a time you could fill a dungeon party almost instantly, often having to turn several people away? Do you know that once upon a time any corner of the world you traveled to, no matter how remote, you would see several players running around. Do you know that weapon and item vendors used to have lists of items so long it would take you forever to scroll through them because the shard they existed in was continuously occupied by players every minute of the day, day in and day out?

    I did exaggerate when I said tens of thousands, I was going to say hundreds of thousands as I'm sure that is more accurate, but, as is my nature, I erred on the side of caution. There's a site which used to track such things, and after just a cursory glance through their latest logs from back in 2013, there were over 27K active guilds and 600K active characters. Those stats are active, total is over 40K guilds and 1.5M characters.

    So yeah... tens of thousands is a very conservative estimate... too conservative actually and I want to thank you for pointing that out.
    The Final Victory Tour!!!

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude View Post
    Are you new here? Do you have any idea how many people used to play DDO? Do you know that the first Crystal Cove event had so many shards (different instances of the game world created when too many players are in a single instance) that players congregate in shards around their character level? Do you know that once upon a time you could fill a raid, any raid, any time of day, in just a few minutes? Do you know that once upon a time it wasn't at all unusual to have multiple LFMs for the same raid up at the same time? Do you know that once upon a time you could fill a dungeon party almost instantly, often having to turn several people away? Do you know that once upon a time any corner of the world you traveled to, no matter how remote, you would see several players running around. Do you know that weapon and item vendors used to have lists of items so long it would take you forever to scroll through them because the shard they existed in was continuously occupied by players every minute of the day, day in and day out?

    I did exaggerate when I said tens of thousands, I was going to say hundreds of thousands as I'm sure that is more accurate, but, as is my nature, I erred on the side of caution. There's a site which used to track such things, and after just a cursory glance through their latest logs from back in 2013, there were over 27K active guilds and 600K active characters. Those stats are active, total is over 40K guilds and 1.5M characters.

    So yeah... tens of thousands is a very conservative estimate... too conservative actually and I want to thank you for pointing that out.
    This game was huge from 2009-2011 and there was a much smaller mini-boom with MotU in 2012. Sadly the game was pretty poorly handled from 2010-13 and we lost a ton of people, but that was a whole different stafff. People keep comparing to that golden era and say pop is "declining," but from what I can tell it's been pretty steady for the last 3-5 years. Probably even up a bit in the last 2.

    It's weird to me how nostalgic people are for that era. Yeah, having a ton of people on was great, I'd love to have that again. But actual game development was so much worse. We have more enhancement updates and improvements in the average patch these days than we did for years then. There were classes with literally no "prestige enhancements." Bards got lvl 12 PrEs in the end of 2009 (IIRC) and then literally nothing until the tree overalls in 2013. And that's just one that comes to mind. So much stuff was broken or bugged. There were zero, ZERO, epic quests made from 10/2010 to 1/2012. Over a year of no proper endgame content if you didn't raid (and only two short raids). Loot was 90%+ garbage on release. ESoS was the best weapon for, what, 5+ years? The devs then just didn't get it. Druid was broken on release an not fixed till last year. Epic destines were poorly conceived, unbalanced, and mostly broken when they came out. Etc, etc, etc.

    And there was no communication on any of it ever. When would we get new enhancements? *crickets*. When would we get new epic quests? *crickets*. Is [whatever] WAI? *crickets*.

    I don't get how people think how that was great and SSG is bad. The current team has done so much to clean up the hot mess that was created from 2010-15, but there's this vocal group on this forum that is intent on blaming them because there aren't as many players now as there were years before they took over. And whether you like all of SSGs decisions or not at least they talk to us.

    It's the dev team that you guys are so wi****l about that killed that huge population, not the current group that has salvaged it. I think if a lot of those people came back and tried it now they would stay longer.
    Last edited by SerPounce; 11-01-2019 at 12:20 PM.
    Sabbath - Sarlona

  17. #77
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    I think if a lot of those people came back and tried it now they would stay longer.
    Not from the people I know, And thats a lot.

    my old guild for example, around 20 of them came back for Ravenloft, only 1 stayed. For Sharn I talked to less than 10, none stayed.

    In fact, on average, of ALL the people Ive met since Jan 07' only a dozen (approx) are still playing. Sure a few log on every now and then, but they don't play at all, why????

    POWER CREEP, Bloated stats on monsters to compensate for that power creep. REAPER, without exception 90% or more have never come back because of reaper.

    From my PoV, SSG is releasing great artwork, but lackluster content. Items with every update that are geared towards the current cash-cow agenda, and TOTAL lack of effort put into the new player experience and retention.

    This game is in a death spiral until wholesale changes are made.

    I don not doubt SSG's desire to want this game to prosper and grow, how they are going about it belies that sentiment



  18. #78
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tchtutax View Post
    Try looking at it this way.... If you were at a party where a girl is running around making sure everyone has a steady supply of beer and food and some skedusche comes up and starts screaming at her in the face because the frosty icing on the oatmeal raisin cookie she made for everyone is clumpy, he'd be getting his rear end whooped upon.
    SSG isn't giving us a gift, they're selling us a product, and nobody's screaming in anybody's face.

  19. #79
    Community Member Hawkwier's Avatar
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    Cool Fine...

    I think a few folks are misinterpreting the purpose of my first post.

    OP starts of with obsequious nonsense calling folks poo-flinging monkeys.

    Dev piles in with a, you go guy!

    My response was then intended as counterpoint to this (IMO) somewhat saccharine love-in - My stated (and held) view: recent game development has been mediocre to poor.

    I must, apparently uniquely, though, then provide an in depth analysis of why I think this is the case?

    OK, I give a little more colour to my reasoning, for some though, that's still not enough. And we all know that for some, nothing ever will be.

    A few then also disagree with my explanations, and that's absolutely fine, I disagree with their view too - I've never claimed my view was anything other than subjective. Subjective but valid IMO.

    All of the issues I've noted are pretty well documented elsewhere (well, maybe not so much the wading through treacle part of my comment about JB, I'll give you - so: Put simply, every time I go in that quest it is like entering Strahd's staircase (which is also a pain but OK, coz y'know, heayy gravity, and all that) - I prefer the main challenge in a quest being related to getting hit in the face or some-such, not in simply trying to get from point A to point B = JB is the worst gameplay experience I've had in this game (lag spikes excepted). Might be me, might be my PC. But its only here that it happens, so doubtful. It is an awful experience).

    My posting was never intended to offer constructive feedback any more than the OP was looking for informed debate though. But poo, apparently, only flows in one direction.

    I don't see why I need justify my firmly held opinion on recent developments in this game any more than the OP need justify calling folks poo flinging monkeys (and I'm perfectly comfortable that he needn't bother to do so)...

    ...so I'm not going to, and will happily leave it there (until such time as I may feel like having another pop at what I consider is mediocre to awful development of the game (which I used to love too, and maybe will do again one day) - or think obsequious nonsense like the OPs merits it - or merely on a whim, at least until I see improvements.

    Plus, I never even got that banana, so, there's that...

  20. #80
    2015 DDO Players Council Seikojin's Avatar
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    Ok, a lot to unpack hurr...

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes View Post
    Sorry to derail .. but are there servers which are more PST / EST oriented ?
    Nah, no API available to poll that data, however there are some fan made lists with estimations. I think all their machines are not cloud, so they would be centrally or small distribution for efficiency. What locations, I do not know. I was an import to Sarlona a long time ago when they merged before F2P.

    Quote Originally Posted by nokowi View Post
    In a original post showing quite poor treatment of others, you are being quite supportive of the very thing you say prevents you from joining a discussion (harsh treatment of others).

    You (SSG, not Lynnabel) have shown as a company you are unable to listen to critical feedback, regardless of the tone or harshness.

    Some of the nicest people on the forums asked very nicely for a discussion on stealth, and got nothing. You have dodged every attempt at creating a discussion group for things forumites identify as important, having nothing to do with tone - you could enforce this if you cared to and make it a requirement of joining a community-based discussion.

    Please stop pretending you (SSG) are not responsible for your own decisions, and take responsibility for your (SSG) design.

    You have all the control and should take all the responsibility - please don't blame others for your inaction and mistakes.
    I know devs aren't the omniscient presence that most forum users and game players imagine them to be (I said most, not all, YMMV here). When a dev or employee says they just avoid when a post starts off with trash, that is a human reaction, supported by policy (in most game companies, there are strict rules around forum posting). It is a big waste of their time to sift through the haystack for the needle of a point.

    Remember, just because there was no interaction does not mean a dev or employee didn't take it to someone else or notice it. It just means no reply was made. Probably for good reason. I remember many times where I couldn't forum reply, but still made tickets and got bugs fixed from what I saw. Replying means a level of acknowledgement and engagement the company as a whole can never commit to. If a dev replies to anything, it is assumed on the playerbases side, that the dev and or company is looking into implementing it.

    I have seen devs and SSG take responsibility for their decisions. If they didn't no bug fixes or balances changes would be made.

    That last bit is just more flinging

    Quote Originally Posted by TitusOvid View Post
    That is true. But a good management could change this forum for the better. Unfortunately it is not something you do on the side. It requires a tremendous effort and special competences.
    Something I don't think Cordovan could achieve on his own and I don't mean that degrading.

    Cheers,
    Titus.
    I agree, however I think the team at SSG is doing as best as they can do. There is a LOT to do in order to keep this ship sailing forward. And there is a lot to add to it to keep it sailing northward. You can't QoL every deployment and call the game successful. It needs engagement and ways to lure players in. That is what new content does. Seeing U44 having level 1 quests? Totally buying that. I am excited for the day when I can dialog my way from lvl 1 - 20 on a 4th life, no matter how many clicks it takes. Or stealth the whole life. No kills? Sign me up. Sing my way? Sign me up. Puzzle my way? Oh heck yeah!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tchtutax View Post
    Critical discussion is no problem, and even healthy for development. However, this statement is not that - "Recently the stuff I've seen has been mediocre to awful by comparison".

    This is Poo... A big giant fat poo pile, to be accurate. It does nothing to serve the world and should be corked back up where it came from. Talking with the intent to do nothing other than belittle the achievements of others is pure poo.

    I started this thread to show the devs that the poo slingers are an outspoken minority. I suspect a good portion of the people who have "left" the game did so because we had to grow up and and be adults for a while, rather than being sore over design decisions that were made. This game has persevered through the evolution of a generation, and that's something to be proud of.

    And given the voices of the people who have pitched in, I can see that I'm not the only one who shares this thought. Thanks for fighting the good fight!
    Yeah, I want to echo this. I am all for engagement. It just has to be in depth. I understand players who are frustrated by coming here, putting in the words and detail, and seeing nothing for years. I get it. I do. I have been on the other side and championed for change as QA for game companies, spending my free time on forums looking for topics to bring to standups and planning meetings. I just know for a fact that adding more and more vitriol to replies as your request is not responded to does nothing to help it get responded to or implemented.

    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    "Not easy" isn't a get out of development free card.

    Some of us have overhauled 20 and 30 year old software systems with far less tolerance for mistakes than customers grant DDO at their pitchforky-est. If you're working on DDO code, you're in as pretty a privileged position in the software industry as a human being can get. Maybe your long term employment is riskier, but your ability to kill/main/hurt innocents is virtually zero.

    There's not one DDO developer who would trade places with the developers who worked on the Boeing 737 MAX software changes that sent those two planes into the dirt.

    Just because some customers might be inartful in their complaints doesn't mean their complaints shouldn't be evaluated impartially as to whether they have some merit.
    No devs at SSG act's or responds in a way that implies it's not easy as a way out.

    But a human won't get to the meat of the players point if the opener is just trash talk or fluff. Hundreds and thousands of posts per day is not a single persons job, not even community managers/members. Bots do that, at best. And keywords and filtering help highlight the good and ignore the rest. If a system were in place, wouldn't it behoove the playerbase to be a bit more artful in their posts to game the system?

    All the stuff about what people have done, how privileged SSG devs are, tolerance guides for releases, and saying that every feedback should be treated as critical is the kind of posts that keep devs from responding. Not because they have no point that can be taken well, they just are full of nothing useful to do the stuff I said above (ship sailing and northernly).

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Pretty much this.

    I'll add that in aggregation, even comments that are 90% troll and 10% substance can have the substance aggregated into the feedback pool and the trolling ignored/discarded. Planning meetings are far more efficient with the proverbial fat trimmed off the source comments so the meat of the source issue can be evaluated anyhow.
    This kind of cycles back to my previous, bots filter the chaff, so if you want to get past the bot, game the keyword system. I am not saying they use one, however if you look at your post in that way, it is easier to rework it to a point where it gets attention in a positive way, rather than ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    SSG isn't giving us a gift, they're selling us a product, and nobody's screaming in anybody's face.
    Actually, we scream a lot in each others face.

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