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  1. #41
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    I played PnP from basic D&D up through 2nd edition, and this used spell slots for each spell level per day. I remember spending a long time debating about which spells to take each day. Personally, I always thought that a system that was more flexible would be more fun, such as either mana you can spend on anything you want, but that would take a DM forethought to make sure the system wasn't abused (generally by simply not giving access to ultra-powerful options). Alternatively, another system that could work would be a system where you don't need to memorize your spells ahead of time, but instead you can simply cast X number of spells per spell level that your class & level specifies (i.e. you know your spells, but you are only powerful enough to cast three 3rd level spells a day or rest).
    The best part of the 10th Anniversary of DDO...the description on the Oatmeal Raisin Kookie,
    "From a distance you thought this was a chocolate chip kookie. Now you're sad."

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SorcererVictor View Post
    DISCLAIMER
    Anyone else have a similar preference for casts / rest over CD?
    Lemme guess: Your Steam handle is C4MP3R?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    I played PnP from basic D&D up through 2nd edition, and this used spell slots for each spell level per day. I remember spending a long time debating about which spells to take each day. Personally, I always thought that a system that was more flexible would be more fun, such as either mana you can spend on anything you want, but that would take a DM forethought to make sure the system wasn't abused (generally by simply not giving access to ultra-powerful options). Alternatively, another system that could work would be a system where you don't need to memorize your spells ahead of time, but instead you can simply cast X number of spells per spell level that your class & level specifies (i.e. you know your spells, but you are only powerful enough to cast three 3rd level spells a day or rest).
    There are spontaneous casters, mainly on 3.5e. So, there are no memorization but there are casts / rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkendex View Post
    Lemme guess: Your Steam handle is C4MP3R?
    Yes, but believe on me. This discussion is nothing new. In fact, most people prefer casts per rest on Dark Souls over FP/MP system ( https://www.neogaf.com/threads/dark-...l-use.1213785/ ) But here looks like only i prefer D&D magic system over WoW magic system...

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SorcererVictor View Post
    Yes, but believe on me. This discussion is nothing new. In fact, most people prefer casts per rest on Dark Souls over FP/MP system ( https://www.neogaf.com/threads/dark-...l-use.1213785/ ) But here looks like only i prefer D&D magic system over WoW magic system...
    Finally found official forums I see. XD

  5. #45
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Keep in mind casts per rest is balanced in the tabletop version of the game by the DM throwing 4 encounters at the party, then determining if the party can handle a 5th encounter based on current available resources. In DDO, this would be like walking into Coal Chamber, doing the optional right at the beginning where you can get the key to the bonus chest, then needing a rest already (as there are a few rounds of spawns) - then running down the tunnel, fighting the first swarm of bats, running part way up the spiral while fighting trogs, going halfway into the first hallway where there are multiple encounters, then needing another rest. 25% of your playtime would be resting with the way mob density is designed into DDO (due to the mana system they chose) - I also picked an old quest to exemplify this with. Some newer quests youd be camping once or twice in every hallway.

    Im all for games using that system, when the game was designed around that system from go. In NWN which tried to mimic 3.0E, magic is very powerful (as it is in D&D 3.0) and also very limited. That one fireball will wipe out that entire hallway of trolls. Once you use a few of them you're out of fireballs.
    Last edited by Chai; 10-18-2019 at 09:42 AM.
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkendex View Post
    Finally found official forums I see. XD
    I din't posted before because "err_too_many_redirects"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Keep in mind casts per rest is balanced in the tabletop version of the game by the DM throwing 4 encounters at the party, then determining if the party can handle a 5th encounter based on current available resources. In DDO, this would be like walking into Coal Chamber, doing the optional right at the beginning where you can get the key to the bonus chest, then needing a rest already (as there are a few rounds of spawns) - then running down the tunnel, fighting the first swarm of bats, running part way up the spiral while fighting trogs, going halfway into the first hallway where there are multiple encounters, then needing another rest. 25% of your playtime would be resting with the way mob density is designed into DDO (due to the mana system they chose) - I also picked an old quest to exemplify this with. Some newer quests youd be camping once or twice in every hallway.

    Im all for games using that system, when the game was designed around that system from go. In NWN which tried to mimic 3.0E, magic is very powerful (as it is in D&D 3.0) and also very limited. That one fireball will wipe out that entire hallway of trolls. Once you use a few of them you're out of fireballs.
    Again, other D&D adaptations uses casts / rest. From Pool of Radiance(1988) to NWN2(2008)... And even PF:KM uses it(2018 - a pathfinder adaptation, not D&D but very similar)

  7. #47
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SorcererVictor View Post

    Again, other D&D adaptations uses casts / rest. From Pool of Radiance(1988) to NWN2(2008)... And even PF:KM uses it(2018 - a pathfinder adaptation, not D&D but very similar)
    Yeap, and theres STILL an almost 20 year debate on their archived forums for NWN1 on what the time frame should be for resting.

    On our server we used 1 RL hour.
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  8. #48
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    Just no. This does not work in an action game.

    What they could do is give more spells longer cooldowns like FoD, cast times (like cloud spells), and/or remove spell points entirely. This could open up for better balance (if more work). At the end of the day, actions per second is the most most precious resource of all classes, and they could balance everything around this.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 10-18-2019 at 03:26 PM.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yeap, and theres STILL an almost 20 year debate on their archived forums for NWN1 on what the time frame should be for resting.

    On our server we used 1 RL hour.
    I believe that depends a lot on your setting, map, etc. For eg, in a low magic "setting", low hack & slash or in a consta H&S module, the available of resting should be different.

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    Just no. This does not work in an action game.

    What they could do is give more spells longer cooldowns like FoD, cast times (like cloud spells), and/or remove spell points entirely. This could open up for better balance (if more work). At the end of the day, actions per second is the most most precious resource of all classes, and they could balance everything around this.
    See DArk Souls 1/2. Uses Spell slots and is a action game.

  10. #50
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    Dark Souls is a rogue-like, a very different game compared to DDO, and most people who have played it agree that their magic system is absolutely terrible.

    NWN would have been a better comparison. That game just ended up being all about how to abuse the rest button. I certainly do not want to go back to that.

    Just let it go. DDO implemented the optional D&D spell point system specifically because it would not work well in an action MMO.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post
    Dark Souls is a rogue-like, a very different game compared to DDO, and most people who have played it agree that their magic system is absolutely terrible.

    NWN would have been a better comparison. That game just ended up being all about how to abuse the rest button. I certainly do not want to go back to that.

    Just let it go. DDO implemented the optional D&D spell point system specifically because it would not work well in an action MMO.
    I did a test. Looked into negative DkS 2 reviews on steam, CTRL F and ... No one was mentioning the magic system. In fact people criticized DkS 3 when they shifted to mana bar.

    As for NWN, again. Depends the module. You can't "rest scum" in certain modules and even on hotu expansion, there are parts where you need to deal with hordes of enemies without time to rest, mostly at end of chap 2 and mid of last chapter.

  12. #52
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    This idea is too stupid to even discuss. How is this at 3 pages?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alled78 View Post
    Why should i use all my neural cells when i can go inqui and go pew pew pew ???

  13. #53
    Forum witchdoctor Hobgoblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    This idea is too stupid to even discuss. How is this at 3 pages?
    cause its pretty much people saying that - then op says no it isnt. then someone else says it and op denies it again. lol
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    This idea is too stupid to even discuss. How is this at 3 pages?
    that could be applied to 90% of the total threads on the forums and 99.9% of the threads about nerf x class/tree. and 100% of threads where someone tries to compare ddo to their pen and paper group.
    My phones auto correct/swype failed grammar school.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    This idea is too stupid to even discuss. How is this at 3 pages?
    Yes, the idea that a D&D game would be better with D&D magic instead of WoW magic is too stupid to even discuss. Every mmo needs to be a wow clone /sarcasm

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobgoblin View Post
    cause its pretty much people saying that - then op says no it isnt. then someone else says it and op denies it again. lol
    The problem is because people are criticizing casts per rest with the worst possible reasons. For eg :
    • There are a loophole in 5e rules with 2 spells that doesn't exist in DDO and no DM would allow that exploit, ignore that with mana, the same exploit can happens but because there are this exploit, casts per rest is a awful system.
    • It not work in video games(proceeds to put a list of games with casts per rest)
    • It not work in action games(proceeds to mention other games)
    • You will only have 3 casts per rest and with mana you will have more(as if you can't inflate the casts per rest to balance with enemies with inflated stats )
    • People will just spam the best attack(Nobody will waste their best spells vs trash mobs with casts per rest)
    • Every mmo needs to be a wow clone, no game should try use a different system
    • (...)


    Frankly, see what i posted literally on disclaimer. It will never happens in DDO because will require a re design of every dungeon, re design of every spell, every gear, every mob resistance, every enhancement tree... I said in the first paragraph that is just my opinion and that will never be implemented in DDO, but seens like nobody is even reading.
    Last edited by SorcererVictor; 10-20-2019 at 01:00 PM.

  17. #57
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SorcererVictor View Post
    Yes, the idea that a D&D game would be better with D&D magic instead of WoW magic is too stupid to even discuss. Every mmo needs to be a wow clone /sarcasm
    Oh, please. In an online environment, the mana/energy/rage/power system is far superior and a hundred times more easily controlled and built around than 'uses per hour/day/rest.' Not every MMO uses a mana system because of WoW, so get over it.

    DDO is not PnP D&D: it's a D&D-themed MMORPG that has to abide by certain mechanics due to an online environment. I really wish people would understand this.

    Yours is a bad idea with bad reasoning that has already been demonstrably proven inferior multiple times. End of thread.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Oh, please. In an online environment, the mana/energy/rage/power system is far superior and a hundred times more easily controlled and built around than 'uses per hour/day/rest.' Not every MMO uses a mana system because of WoW, so get over it.

    DDO is not PnP D&D: it's a D&D-themed MMORPG that has to abide by certain mechanics due to an online environment. I really wish people would understand this.

    Yours is a bad idea with bad reasoning that has already been demonstrably proven inferior multiple times. End of thread.
    You din't wrote a single reason to consider mana superior not demonstrated one of "multiple times" that my idea was proven inferior. And yes, every mmo tends to be wow clones in his mechanics. Look to Mu Classic. Had no cooldown and was relative similar to Diablo 2. Look to Ultima Online, was almost equal to offline ultima and then come wow and every game started to try to copy wow and now, wizardry online had nothing to do with wizardry offline, Mu Legend has nothing to do with Mu Classic, SWTOR has nothing to do with KOTOR 1/2 and DDO is vastly different than offline D&D. Neverwinter mmo is far more wow-like than neverwinter nights 1/2, to the point that i can enjoy DDO, but can't enjoy neverwinter mmo.

    DDO is not pnp D&D, but IMO would be better if had more in common to D&D and less in common to WoW. That is just my opinion. Compared to other post wow mmos, DDO maintained a lot of interesting stuff like saves, checks, attributes, etc but added a wow like gearing and wow like same rotation cooldown based combat that is awful.

    PS : I mentioned a lot of games who are online here as example.

  19. #59
    Community Member Torkzed's Avatar
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    I primarily play spell casters in both tabletop and DDO.

    I am comfortable with the different systems. I think they both work fine in their respective environments.

    There are MANY other things that the devs could spend their time on more productively than working on a complete overhaul of the spellcasting system.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torkzed View Post
    I primarily play spell casters in both tabletop and DDO.

    I am comfortable with the different systems. I think they both work fine in their respective environments.

    There are MANY other things that the devs could spend their time on more productively than working on a complete overhaul of the spellcasting system.
    I strongly agree. That is the reason that is not a suggestion, rather a just discussion by the sake of discussion. In order to change the system into casts per rest, they will need to :
    • Rebalance all trees
    • Rebalance all encounters
    • Re do all gearing
    • Play test every change
    • Remake completely some feats and metamatic
    • (...)


    IMO not worth the effort.

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