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  1. #1
    Community Member Pnumbra's Avatar
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    Default No Support for Short Sword for Rogues?

    Rogues are not Bards yet all the support for short sword (SS) is the Bard trees. Assassin tree trips onto adding weapon finesse but that's it. There is no feat for SS. Why is that? I noticed this while developing my TWF Rogue.

    BTW, thank you for Moonwillow
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  2. #2
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Rogue weapons have been pigeon holed by Enhancement tree for a long time now. Short swords haven't gotten any love in a long time; e.g. no feat like Knights Training to boost their critical multiplier. Outside of PDK bards, there's little reason to use short swords over other weapons.
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  3. #3
    Community Member C-Dog's Avatar
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    DDO is not any edition of D&D that you've played before. You have to let go of previous character concepts, or accept that you're going to run a "flavor" build, sacrificing effectiveness for concept.

    Not every configuration is going to be as good as every other one. Same as if you analyzed any other edition. <shrug>

  4. #4

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    Since Vistani, kukris sort of ‘poofed’ from assassin builds too

    A new feat like knight’s training is needed for weapons like short swords but not simply a copy of it—something different
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  5. #5
    Community Member Katalissa's Avatar
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    I wouldn't mind seeing something like that too!
    Legionnaire's Training maybe? How would you make it different from Knight's though? Perhaps instead of multiplier, it has a stacking increase to threat range?

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katalissa View Post
    I wouldn't mind seeing something like that too!
    Legionnaire's Training maybe? How would you make it different from Knight's though? Perhaps instead of multiplier, it has a stacking increase to threat range?
    I think there could be some general feat for TWFs that is based on the gladiators and duelists that would fight with two weapons. The one I have in mind ("dimachaerus") had two identical weapons AFAIK in each hand. So a feat like that might be interesting, like "If the weapon in the mainhand is identical to the one in the offhand, you gain 5% Doublestrike mainhand and offhand, and an extra +10% stacking offhand hit chance." Or something like that, I have not worked out the details since the devs are not interested. Anyway there is no reason why only tempests get TWF so well developed when someone deeply specialized like a fighter or ninja should not also be able to narrowly focus.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Katalissa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saekee View Post
    ...Anyway there is no reason why only tempests get TWF so well developed when someone deeply specialized like a fighter or ninja should not also be able to narrowly focus.
    You know what the real answer to that is, don't you? The 100% historical reason why there's a tree specializing in a dual-wield ranger?

    Because Drizz't...

    I was thinking extended crit range rather than multiplier, but doublestrike and or extra off-hand could work. And I'm thinking maybe attack speed boost if both weapons are light.

  8. #8
    Community Member Jerevth's Avatar
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    Short swords were formation type weapons. Perhaps an enhancement tree that built on that?two internal branches that build on separate lines... (Pulled loosely from Roman era fighting.)

    Formation fighting: Short sword bonus to speed, hit and damage when flanking. A bonus to defend a party member with your shield against when facing the same opponent.

    Gladiatorial Fighting: Short sword, kukri dual wield. Improvised tactics- trip bonuses, sand in the eye (temp blindness), strike the back of the head type daze, upgrade to stun. Nets?

    Light armor bonuses build up dodge +1/2/3, PRR +5/10/20, MDB +1/2/3

    Usual gradient to weapon bonuses +1 hit/+2 damage

    Shield bonuses when facing same opponent as another party member.

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    -Centurian- Insightful Tactics bonuses
    -Inherant bonus to hit/damage with one of the supported weapon types (Short sword, kukri, spear... We need spears in game.)

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  9. #9
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    I fight with a short sword in real life and I'm really attached to them.

    Ideally, Shortswords have a home in Ninja Spy (and Swash), but honestly that tree needs a lot of help. There is a lot of open space in the top and not a lot of reasons to go deep into it. I feel like all of the monk trees really suffer from a "too many buttons that don't do anything and not enough places to sink points into" problem that tends to surround a lot of our... crunchier... classes. Ninja Spy is meant to be a sort of throwing/melee hybrid, but unlike Deepwood Stalker there just isn't enough good meat on the bones.

    I also would love to see VKF open up to Kukris, even if only to reach the offhand strike chance parity that pushes daggers over the edge. No promises, though :)
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  10. #10
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I fight with a short sword in real life and I'm really attached to them.

    Ideally, Shortswords have a home in Ninja Spy (and Swash), but honestly that tree needs a lot of help. There is a lot of open space in the top and not a lot of reasons to go deep into it. I feel like all of the monk trees really suffer from a "too many buttons that don't do anything and not enough places to sink points into" problem that tends to surround a lot of our... crunchier... classes. Ninja Spy is meant to be a sort of throwing/melee hybrid, but unlike Deepwood Stalker there just isn't enough good meat on the bones.

    I also would love to see VKF open up to Kukris, even if only to reach the offhand strike chance parity that pushes daggers over the edge. No promises, though
    Also Ki. Monks still use ki. Other than spell points and universally shared action boosts, there's no other resource in the game that limits a class. A fighter and barbarian can use the vast majority of their clicky attacks as many times as they wish, the only caveat being cooldowns. Paladins use turn undead uses for things, but they also have plenty of attacks that don't have a resource requirement. Meanwhile, monks are still bound by an archaic system that no other class is bound by (or, at least, in the same manner).
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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Ideally, Shortswords have a home in Ninja Spy (and Swash), but honestly that tree needs a lot of help.


  12. #12
    Community Member ChadB123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I also would love to see VKF open up to Kukris, even if only to reach the offhand strike chance parity that pushes daggers over the edge. No promises, though
    This really needs to happen. Otherwise, daggers will continue to be the best option for rogue DPS.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Thar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I fight with a short sword in real life and I'm really attached to them.
    did no one catch this part? Lynnabel ninja vigilante???!?!?! :O
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  14. #14
    Founder & Hero cdbd3rd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I fight with a short sword in real life ....



    ....and I'm really attached to them. ...
    Orly?




    They did an excellent job blending in your weapon-appendage.
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  15. #15
    The Hatchery Cernunan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I fight with a short sword in real life and I'm really attached to them.

    Ideally, Shortswords have a home in Ninja Spy (and Swash), but honestly that tree needs a lot of help. There is a lot of open space in the top and not a lot of reasons to go deep into it. I feel like all of the monk trees really suffer from a "too many buttons that don't do anything and not enough places to sink points into" problem that tends to surround a lot of our... crunchier... classes. Ninja Spy is meant to be a sort of throwing/melee hybrid, but unlike Deepwood Stalker there just isn't enough good meat on the bones.

    I also would love to see VKF open up to Kukris, even if only to reach the offhand strike chance parity that pushes daggers over the edge. No promises, though
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  16. #16
    Community Member Pnumbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    ...Ideally, Shortswords have a home in Ninja Spy (and Swash), but honestly that tree needs a lot of help....Ninja Spy is meant to be a sort of throwing/melee hybrid, but unlike Deepwood Stalker there just isn't enough good meat on the bones. I also would love to see VKF open up to Kukris, even if only to reach the offhand strike chance parity that pushes daggers over the edge. No promises, though
    ...
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  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I fight with a short sword in real life and I'm really attached to them.

    Ideally, Shortswords have a home in Ninja Spy (and Swash), but honestly that tree needs a lot of help. There is a lot of open space in the top and not a lot of reasons to go deep into it. I feel like all of the monk trees really suffer from a "too many buttons that don't do anything and not enough places to sink points into" problem that tends to surround a lot of our... crunchier... classes. Ninja Spy is meant to be a sort of throwing/melee hybrid, but unlike Deepwood Stalker there just isn't enough good meat on the bones.

    I also would love to see VKF open up to Kukris, even if only to reach the offhand strike chance parity that pushes daggers over the edge. No promises, though
    Ooh wow! Well check out some of the ideas we posted! I would love to see kukris added to VFK, even if just for the offhand and it would interesting if like midnight greetings it could be a centering weapon

    Swash really messed up by having so much power with a massive range of weapons--they should have limited it to rapiers

    If you add poison damage to the ninja cores you would have a great synergy with Sting of Ninja which is quite weak in heroics, stuff dies too fast--maybe even have some thing happen with crits or poison which causes your own melee power to build. Or something with stealth and melee power like assassins
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I fight with a short sword in real life and I'm really attached to them.
    Prefer a rapier myself. But you can get a good chop in with a gladius.

  19. #19
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I fight with a short sword in real life and I'm really attached to them.

    Ideally, Shortswords have a home in Ninja Spy (and Swash), but honestly that tree needs a lot of help. There is a lot of open space in the top and not a lot of reasons to go deep into it. I feel like all of the monk trees really suffer from a "too many buttons that don't do anything and not enough places to sink points into" problem that tends to surround a lot of our... crunchier... classes. Ninja Spy is meant to be a sort of throwing/melee hybrid, but unlike Deepwood Stalker there just isn't enough good meat on the bones.

    I also would love to see VKF open up to Kukris, even if only to reach the offhand strike chance parity that pushes daggers over the edge. No promises, though
    In my view at least, Ninja lost tons viability mostly due to weapon lock (staff/handwrap/...ninjable weapons/ this lock makes little sense anyway), and stealth-aggropocalypse... my number one build used to be handwrap using ninja monk, while sneaking was mostly functional in top difficulty quests.



    It was really something different to play, completing dungeons sneaking largely extended replay ability at one point for me. I wish i understood what is going on in dev heads about stealth being too good to use, because i had dozens of builds (currently playing 2) that gets to the carrot in floor estimate 1/5 the time, and is fairly riskless, while stealthing was actually super slow and super risky to pull off, usually for marginal results, more adrenalin, same or less rewards.

    Nerf to bluff and deception didnt help at all too, its like the associated play style was dissected to be point by point neutralized... mission accomplished if that was the goal.
    Last edited by janave; 11-05-2019 at 04:50 AM.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pnumbra View Post
    Rogues are not Bards yet all the support for short sword (SS) is the Bard trees. Assassin tree trips onto adding weapon finesse but that's it. There is no feat for SS. Why is that? I noticed this while developing my TWF Rogue.

    BTW, thank you for Moonwillow
    Every now and then I get some heck thrown my way from guildies for my SS flavor build - 15 favored soul, 3 monk, 2 paladin, Drow follower of Vulkoor. I have a metric ton of ss's that are now btc on a character that will never use them again because of this build. Seriously, though, the support for them is in game, you just kinda have to reach for it. I would also like to acknowledge that they don't get *nearly* the same amount of love as longswords and apparently bastard swords.

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