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  1. #1
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    Default WArlocks are not clerics, on 3.5 or 5e.

    The description mentions WLK as an very cleric like class but warlocks originated on 3.5e Complete Arcane sourcebook. In that time, was not even an discussion if WLKs are arcane or divine casters. Ammon Jerro, the most notable warlock(nwn2) was faithless without any deity or "patron" and was an warlock because warlock is just an "outsiderish" version of an arcane caster, just like an druid is an "naturish" version of an nature caster.

    Non deities can't grant spells, doesn't matter how strong they are.

    Think on WLK just like an "outsiderish" version of arcane caster, just like Druids are an "natureish" version of divine casters. Some quotes.

    Eldritch Invocations
    In your study of occult lore, you have unearthed eldritch invocations, fragments of forbidden knowledge that imbue you with an abiding magical ability."

    https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_SRD:Warlock
    Note that divine casters had mechanics for losing powers like Oathbreaker paladin, warlocks have no such mechanics.



    Some quotes from player manual

    "... young elf in golden robes smiles warmly, weaving a magical charm into his honeyed words and bending the palace sentinel to his will"- Not Patron's will- Warlock's will

    "Warlocks are seekers of the knowledge that lies hidden..." Doesn't seem like the warlock is being gifted the power so much as taught the methods on how to wield it.

    "Drawing on the ancient knowledge..."

    "...warlocks piece together arcane secrets to bolster their own power..." Again referencing the Warlock's own power being enhanced by universal secrets

    "Warlocks are driven by an insatiable need for knowledge and power"

    "...while poring over tomes of forbidden lore..." Again with the idea of studying eldritch secrets.
    Quoting complete arcane(3.5)

    pag 5


    "seeks to master the periculous magic that suffuses his soul"

    "the fount of dark magic burning in their soul"

    pag 8

    "much like bards and sorcerers choose which..."

  2. #2
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    I mean your very first source contains this and several other similar remarks:

    Pact Magic
    Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    I mean your very first source contains this and several other similar remarks:

    Pact Magic
    Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells.
    Again, non deities CAN'T GRANT spells. They can unlock an "link" to an outsider force, can give an lecture to you, but no divine rank = no spell. This is basic lore.

    This topic discuss why people tends to believe that warlocks are just another cleric and not an completely new and different class https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/cla...-patron-is-the

  4. #4
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    Sometimes I think that Warlocks have something similar like the Rest Of The Eladrin Statuette : Both are linked to someone from another sphere ... It's to me a bit as if a Shaman had a spirit as a councellor ...
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tapper this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this tale."
    English is not my first language - misinterpretations galore !

  5. #5
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    SorcererVictor
    WArlocks are not clerics, on 3.5 or 5e.
    The description mentions WLK as an very cleric like class but warlocks originated on 3.5e Complete Arcane sourcebook. In that time, was not even an discussion if WLKs are arcane or divine casters. Ammon Jerro, the most notable warlock(nwn2) was faithless without any deity or "patron" and was an warlock because warlock is just an "outsiderish" version of an arcane caster, just like an druid is an "naturish" version of an nature caster.
    The Description says:

    Warlocks make pacts with otherworldly beings to gain power and might. This relationship between warlock and patron is somewhat like that of a cleric and deity, but beings that serve as patrons for warlocks are not gods.

    Now my question is, why does the description bother you so much ?

  6. #6
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    It bothered them enough to create a forum account and make a post on it like its going to mean anything to anyone.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentRunning View Post
    The Description says:

    Warlocks make pacts with otherworldly beings to gain power and might. This relationship between warlock and patron is somewhat like that of a cleric and deity, but beings that serve as patrons for warlocks are not gods.

    Now my question is, why does the description bother you so much ?
    IS not exactly the description is that a lot of people thinks that way and the fantasy of an seeker of "outsider" ancient eldritch knowledge appeals a lot to me, the fantasy of being an cleric, not...

  8. #8
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SorcererVictor View Post
    Again, non deities CAN'T GRANT spells. They can unlock an "link" to an outsider force, can give an lecture to you, but no divine rank = no spell. This is basic lore.

    This topic discuss why people tends to believe that warlocks are just another cleric and not an completely new and different class https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/cla...-patron-is-the
    Lots of this happening in RA Salvatores books, as well as other authors who have written in the underdark war setting. Llolth has demons granting powers and spells to specific favorite priestesses while she is vulnerable in the time of troubles.

    Not sure why DDO went with the "patron" version **only**, however pact making is indeed one of the sources of their power, per 3.5 - they are either born with their powers or receive them through a fell pact (other pacts would come later, such as fey...). The one catch here is they do not worship their "patron" - they have a pact with it. The powers granted are not on a cast by cast basis, but a permanent granting. Innate abilities and calling them forth (warlock) vs asking/praying to a deity to grant powers in the moment (cleric).
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Lots of this happening in RA Salvatores books, as well as other authors who have written in the underdark war setting. Llolth has demons granting powers and spells to specific favorite priestesses while she is vulnerable in the time of troubles.

    Not sure why DDO went with the "patron" version **only**, however pact making is indeed one of the sources of their power, per 3.5 - they are either born with their powers or receive them through a fell pact (other pacts would come later, such as fey...). The one catch here is they do not worship their "patron" - they have a pact with it. The powers granted are not on a cast by cast basis, but a permanent granting. Innate abilities and calling them forth (warlock) vs asking/praying to a deity to grant powers in the moment (cleric).
    War of the Spider Queen....perhaps the best books in that setting...they were so damn good.

    It has been like 15 years since I read those, and I can't even remember the characters names...but the Wizard was super fun, and the Rogue waas really cool too who used the Kukris.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Lots of this happening in RA Salvatores books, as well as other authors who have written in the underdark war setting. Llolth has demons granting powers and spells to specific favorite priestesses while she is vulnerable in the time of troubles.

    Not sure why DDO went with the "patron" version **only**, however pact making is indeed one of the sources of their power, per 3.5 - they are either born with their powers or receive them through a fell pact (other pacts would come later, such as fey...). The one catch here is they do not worship their "patron" - they have a pact with it. The powers granted are not on a cast by cast basis, but a permanent granting. Innate abilities and calling them forth (warlock) vs asking/praying to a deity to grant powers in the moment (cleric).
    Yes, that is one of the main differences. On Star Wars for eg, Anakin in "light side" was more akin to an Space Wizard, when he shifted to the dark side for power and dark side knowledge, he turned himself into an Warlock. And his relationship with Palpatine was very like what i expect from an evil WLK and her Patron.

    About the novel, i an not sure if this demons had at least an divine rank = 0 granted by Llolth.

  11. #11
    Community Member NemesisAlien's Avatar
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    Warlocks are outsourced personnel who sign a contract with someone who usually is from the bad boy realm. The contract stipulates what exactly can be done, the budget (spells and stuff) and limitations. Break the limitations at your own risk. The contractor will not lift a finger to help you more then the contract stipulates. No more no less. (Well less if they can get away with it)

    Clerics are employees of whatever deity, they are permanent staff who gets paid regularly. (Everyday refreshing of spells assuming you pray) Same for paladins.

    There is an Evan book trilogy on thiefling warlocks, about twin sisters if I recall, with a dragonborn daddy do little.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by NemesisAlien View Post
    Warlocks are outsourced personnel who sign a contract with someone who usually is from the bad boy realm.
    Technically, could Warlocks with a pact with someone from the "good boy realm" (aka "the Arlo realm") be there ?
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tapper this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this tale."
    English is not my first language - misinterpretations galore !

  13. #13
    Community Member NemesisAlien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alrik_Fassbauer View Post
    Technically, could Warlocks with a pact with someone from the "good boy realm" (aka "the Arlo realm") be there ?
    Good boys dont sign contracts, they employ you full time. Old school work culture thing

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SorcererVictor View Post
    Again, non deities CAN'T GRANT spells. They can unlock an "link" to an outsider force, can give an lecture to you, but no divine rank = no spell. This is basic lore.
    You're wrong on that one. Even the 3.5 Player's Handbook disagrees with you on that front. You can be a Cleric that worships something entirely different from a deity, such as a force of nature itself, devils, demons, the Far Realm itself...
    All of those will grant the Cleric spells.
    You can even worship dead, or not-quite-dead deities and gain spells. Tenebrous Apostates get their divine spells all the same, despite Tenebrous being an alternate form of the demon Orcus when he temporarily became a god. Orcus came back as a demon, but somehow, people that worship Tenebrous still get spells and the ability to command undead from him.

    In the case of evil outsiders, it's explained that the most powerful of them can use the very energy of their planes of existence and channel it through force of will, granting the cleric their specific domains instead of the Abyss or Nine Hells they come from, for demons and devils, though that doesn't stop the Cleric from venerating the Abyss itself, and get the divine energy the plane naturally channels through.

    There are whole prestige classes devoted to clerics following devils and demons.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by NemesisAlien View Post
    Warlocks are outsourced personnel who sign a contract with someone who usually is from the bad boy realm. The contract stipulates what exactly can be done, the budget (spells and stuff) and limitations. Break the limitations at your own risk. The contractor will not lift a finger to help you more then the contract stipulates. No more no less. (Well less if they can get away with it)

    Clerics are employees of whatever deity, they are permanent staff who gets paid regularly. (Everyday refreshing of spells assuming you pray) Same for paladins.

    There is an Evan book trilogy on thiefling warlocks, about twin sisters if I recall, with a dragonborn daddy do little.
    1 - I strongly disagree. An Warlock can become an apprendice of an Celestial, Fey or elemental
    2 - Even in the fiendish realm, an devil Patron and an Demon Patron are two completely different entities.

    If you are looking to warlock as only an devil servant under contract, then you are right, but as i've mentioned, they are appendices who learn from outsider masters.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SorcererVictor View Post
    1 - I strongly disagree. An Warlock can become an apprendice of an Celestial, Fey or elemental
    2 - Even in the fiendish realm, an devil Patron and an Demon Patron are two completely different entities.

    If you are looking to warlock as only an devil servant under contract, then you are right, but as i've mentioned, they are appendices who learn from outsider masters.
    Magic is wild and wonderours, who is to say someone knows all of how or why it works? This is why the bsourceooks of knowledge change and are updated ... nothing is written in stone or always understood as fully as we might think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    Magic is wild and wonderours, who is to say someone knows all of how or why it works? This is why the bsourceooks of knowledge change and are updated ... nothing is written in stone or always understood as fully as we might think.
    Wizard magic is much more "mundane" than Warlock magic. Note that Faerun is a high magic setting...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SorcererVictor View Post
    Wizard magic is much more "mundane" than Warlock magic. Note that Faerun is a high magic setting...
    I have never found magic to be "mundane" ... but I have often it found it be misunderstood and very adaptive ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    I have never found magic to be "mundane" ... but I have often it found it be misunderstood and very adaptive ...
    When i mean "mundane", i mean for eg, developed and used mostly on material plane. Having a Fey teaching magic to you and having a human would be completely different experiences. Making an analogy to tech on sci-fi settings, human technology, is much more mundane than alien technology. Learn electronics and how to code in a advanced human civilization or in a alien world would be completely different experiences and results in completely different skills. In a world where everyone that can read can purchase a scroll and cast a spell, yes, this type of magic is very "mundane" Just like a Computer is mundane to us but would be considered "magical" to a Ancient Egyptian
    Last edited by SorcererVictor; 10-01-2019 at 08:03 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SorcererVictor View Post
    Wizard magic is much more "mundane" than Warlock magic. Note that Faerun is a high magic setting...
    Not really, most just use the default settings, few make adaptive use of it. Also A LOT of the really cool stuff are considered lost magic.

    Example Harpells, the under bridge, micro stable and hatchery. Thats adaptive.

    Few examples of default settings, underdark drow, high wizards of luksan, thay, zentirum, silvermoon.

    Nethiral (sp?) mostly use default settings also, admittedly there are a few who made minor variations, note their default settings is different from later on, mystra changed the default settings.

    Have you notice there are few that come close to edminster level of magic? And none surpass him? Also there is no known usage of him using spells for ease of access or convenience of shortcut etc. Admittedly he is more of a magic cleric then an actual self thought mage, not to mention he went loony for a period of time.

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