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  1. #1
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    Default Slotting Deception on a L10 TWF dagger rogue

    Question from melee rogue newbie (forgive my ignorance!)...

    I'm looking at my options to get Deception (the 5% proc type, not the Shadowhail Cloak type) on an L10 TWF dagger rogue, and there aren't too many. I really like the SA proc for soloing, and I'd like the +3 stackable bonus to Bluff too. I love the look of Ring of Lies at ML13 (especially when upgraded to Improved) but I doubt I'll be able to get one, and at ML15 Celestial Sapphire Ring is now a no brainer. But at Level 10, I see no equipment options, and for named daggers only Assassin's Kiss and Teneb. Stiletto, both of which are really not great options (I think) DPS wise. The thought has occurred to me that a rangen loot dagger with Deception may actually be the way to go.

    I'd love to hear any advice you may have on slotting Deception at Level 10, and on the overall worth of doing so. Thanks.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Eryhn's Avatar
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    pretty much like u said, forced to lootgen for lack of good options if ya absolutely want it ...


    ideally sth like vorpal of deception to make one feel less bad about it I guess - but thats asking for luck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eryhn View Post
    pretty much like u said, forced to lootgen for lack of good options if ya absolutely want it ...


    ideally sth like vorpal of deception to make one feel less bad about it I guess - but thats asking for luck
    Thanks, Vorpal of Deception is exactly what I was thinking. Some kind soul put an ML8 Vorpal/Deception dagger on the AH on Cannith, and I'm now the proud owner. I'll post after trying it out. I just realized that Assassin's Kiss has a base x3 crit multiplier, so it's not a bad choice either.

    EDIT: So Deception on rangen loot does not include the +3 bonus to Bluff? How many different ways can they implement Deception? So confusing
    Last edited by 0ldschool; 09-27-2019 at 04:37 AM.
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith: Hand of Death
    Zamsil - L27 TWF VKF assassin

    I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    Assassin's Kiss and Teneb. Stiletto, both of which are really not great options (I think) DPS wise.
    Assassin's Kiss has increased critical multiplier (x3) compared to normal daggers (x2), so it's pretty great option IMHO.
    You could probably also use Midnight Greeting.

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    Community Member Eryhn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    Assassin's Kiss has increased critical multiplier (x3) compared to normal daggers (x2), so it's pretty great option IMHO.

    agreed, and with adamantine ritual its prly worth using to 20, just it can be a pita to farm if unlucky ...

  6. #6

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    The deception attribute only needs to be in the offhand to proc on both. At level 10 you do not have IC keen and probably do not have the enhancement for vistani double daggers offhand proc. So you could do a Midnight Greetings in the offhand if you really want deception.
    If you have an assassin’s kiss that is excellent.

    Truth be told, Improved Feint (the feat) and Shiv (the enhancement) are really all you need in lower heroics. Having extra damage from weapon effects in lower heroics is better than the over-buffed crit profiles of named weapons—just look at the numbers—maybe in reaper where effects are nerfed crit profile buffs shine more but it really is later when seeker and other such boosters really start to matter. So a barovian dagger in mainhand and assassin kiss in offhand is my rec
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saekee View Post
    The deception attribute only needs to be in the offhand to proc on both. At level 10 you do not have IC keen and probably do not have the enhancement for vistani double daggers offhand proc. So you could do a Midnight Greetings in the offhand if you really want deception.
    If you have an assassin’s kiss that is excellent.

    Truth be told, Improved Feint (the feat) and Shiv (the enhancement) are really all you need in lower heroics. Having extra damage from weapon effects in lower heroics is better than the over-buffed crit profiles of named weapons—just look at the numbers—maybe in reaper where effects are nerfed crit profile buffs shine more but it really is later when seeker and other such boosters really start to matter. So a barovian dagger in mainhand and assassin kiss in offhand is my rec
    Thanks Saekee. I'm glad to hear from you! I've been googling all things stealth play on this forum and you appear in MANY threads, often with great information. I took Improved Feint due to one of those threads, and I can't
    thank you enough. It is indispensible, and a big reason I'm trying to keep my Bluff as high as I can. I was wearing Knifepalm without realizing that it's Bluff +12 was contributing to Imp Feint effectiveness, but now that I know that I'm married to them. They also give Assassinate +2, but as far as I can tell I can't even get Assassinate until Rogue Level 12? Well, I'm still learning.

    I pulled Assassin's Kiss last night, I was excited to finally get one! and with a Mythic +2. I completely forgot about its x3 crit, so actually a good choice at L10 as you said. I was also farming ToEE to finish off a ToEE crafted fire Dagger, and now have it fully upgraded with mythic +2 as well. It's AoE blast is pretty nice for high mob count situations (like ToEE). Like you said, I don't have IC so Keen is really nice. As a result, I am having a very tough time putting down Sheridan's Wrack. Barovian/Sheridans is my best DPS as far as I can tell. I've played around with Flint too.

    I read a lot of the DDO Stealth Guide website that you've referenced in posts in the past. I wanted to let you know that it is still really helpful, bringing knowledge to us stealth newbs, so thanks to you and all that contributed to it I am soloing right now so as to not subject others to my slow and inexperienced stealthing. Soloing is clearly not ideal for this play style, but I'm figuring out how to send Anvil (hireling) and my Scarecrow out ahead and then sneak in and clean up with SA. I can see how, when done well, there is actually no need for Deception on an item, and an assassin can get almost full-time sneak attack by sneaking. If I improve my skills enough to be effective with unreliable hirelings, I figure that I'll be ready to join a party and contribute. I'm looking forward to Tier 5 of Assassin, with Assassinate and Measure the Foe.

    Oh, I'm going to start the R.O.G.U.E. challenges too. I started my assassin at L10, so it looks like I'll begin with Claw of Vulkoor, which should be fun since it's actually a quest that rewards stealth! OK, enough rambling.

    Thanks all
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    Zamsil - L27 TWF VKF assassin

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  8. #8
    Community Member DYWYPI's Avatar
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    I agree that (improved) 'Deception' is quite desirable when you are in the teens "soloing" an Assassin and in a tight spot, etc. I preferred the old days when the monsters turned around when affected by Deception.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    [...] I am soloing right now so as to not subject others to my slow and inexperienced stealthing. Soloing is clearly not ideal for this play style, but I'm figuring out how to send Anvil (hireling) and my Scarecrow out ahead and then sneak in and clean up with SA. I can see how, when done well, there is actually no need for Deception on an item, and an assassin can get almost full-time sneak attack by sneaking. ...
    I wouldn't worry about being in a group with your Assassin, as generally all the other players will be the aggravation magnets. You won't need to be doing much Stealth movement, as you'll be getting in plenty of Sneak attack opportunity - assuming the group doesn't just run off and abandon you to large groups of roaming mobs. You mainly have to pay attention to your environment and how all the pawns on chessboard are moving...

    When you get Assassinate, which the Developers mutated and spoilt, you can casually walk up to Golems and assassinate them while they are have full "aggro" upon you.

    0ldschool, I'd suspect the quest 'Claw of Vulkoor' is possibly one of the hardest of the 'Stealth Challenges' listed within: R.O.G.U.E Part Quatre: Call for Stealthy Players!. Sneaking, through 'Schemes of the Enemy', is very easy as is 'Stopping the Sahuagin' albeit 'The Mask of Deception' is near impossible; if you get a lot of Lag from the traps activating. I have my Challenge Rogue close to level 10 now. I would suspect 'Framework' could be a pain especially with the Monster AI changes. So far I've done most of the easier quests on the list to stealth through. For example: [Post #375], so if you aren't that experienced you might find it better to attempt one of those first.
    Last edited by DYWYPI; 10-02-2019 at 07:09 AM. Reason: Make their daggers sharper, than their faces tell.

  9. #9

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    Glad to be of help!

    The ToEE AoE will proc on the mainhand if it is in the offhand too; from 7-11 the damage is kind of nice. The quenched one mighg be the beat since I think it is a will save not reflex

    Daggers with unnaturally high base W damage really shine in Vistani since the monk centering one (one with daggers?) adds +1W. So instead of 2d4 you might have 2d6. Hence why the Sky Pirate’s dagger is so soght after by vets

    The best heroic-only assassins are actually splashes since you can stack faster sneaking and not worry about losing capstone and can even eschew Lethality

    My ROGUE quatre contest is actually closed so a few people who started it while it was still open are trying to complete it still. Lurica just succeeded! I might create a new one someday but it would need be Reaper/epic and that is still a challenge for stealth. This far I have R10d epic Vulkoor at level and R10 Rusted Blades (the latter rather easy once you have the technique down) but others have too many boss types
    Wiki dashboard with some useful stealthplay links
    Proud Knight Templar of the Silver Legion, Cannith: Saekee (main; epic completionist); Parked Toons: Katwoemyn (10), Saelegion (4), Alitirala (4), Naerfelka (21)


  10. #10
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    Question from melee rogue newbie (forgive my ignorance!)...

    I'm looking at my options to get Deception (the 5% proc type, not the Shadowhail Cloak type) on an L10 TWF dagger rogue, and there aren't too many. I really like the SA proc for soloing, and I'd like the +3 stackable bonus to Bluff too. I love the look of Ring of Lies at ML13 (especially when upgraded to Improved) but I doubt I'll be able to get one, and at ML15 Celestial Sapphire Ring is now a no brainer. But at Level 10, I see no equipment options, and for named daggers only Assassin's Kiss and Teneb. Stiletto, both of which are really not great options (I think) DPS wise. The thought has occurred to me that a rangen loot dagger with Deception may actually be the way to go.

    I'd love to hear any advice you may have on slotting Deception at Level 10, and on the overall worth of doing so. Thanks.
    Deception is so good that even a dagger that does 1d4 19-20/x2 crit profile and no other bonuses aside from deception is going to bring a really nice dps improvement overall.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Tlorrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saekee View Post
    This far I have R10d epic Vulkoor
    The should rename this quest after you or put you as an NPC in it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachomammashouse View Post
    The devs got bamboozled by the forum warriors.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saekee View Post
    Glad to be of help!

    The ToEE AoE will proc on the mainhand if it is in the offhand too; from 7-11 the damage is kind of nice. The quenched one mighg be the beat since I think it is a will save not reflex

    Daggers with unnaturally high base W damage really shine in Vistani since the monk centering one (one with daggers?) adds +1W. So instead of 2d4 you might have 2d6. Hence why the Sky Pirate’s dagger is so soght after by vets

    The best heroic-only assassins are actually splashes since you can stack faster sneaking and not worry about losing capstone and can even eschew Lethality

    My ROGUE quatre contest is actually closed so a few people who started it while it was still open are trying to complete it still. Lurica just succeeded! I might create a new one someday but it would need be Reaper/epic and that is still a challenge for stealth. This far I have R10d epic Vulkoor at level and R10 Rusted Blades (the latter rather easy once you have the technique down) but others have too many boss types
    I am indeed doing an Assassin/VKF build, and do have the +1W enhancement already. So yes, loving Wrack and the like. At L12, Guardian of the Liturgy is going to be impossible to ignore. Yes, I know that the challenge is closed, but I don't really care about the rewards. I am going to do it just to see if I can, and hopefully learn stealth play in the process. Thanks again.
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith: Hand of Death
    Zamsil - L27 TWF VKF assassin

    I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Deception is so good that even a dagger that does 1d4 19-20/x2 crit profile and no other bonuses aside from deception is going to bring a really nice dps improvement overall.
    If solo yeah and in later levels
    Quote Originally Posted by Tlorrd View Post
    The should rename this quest after you or put you as an NPC in it.
    waaay too kind of you! It is doable—run in Fury for autoknockdown and hope for good Reaper spawn placement
    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    I am indeed doing an Assassin/VKF build, and do have the +1W enhancement already. So yes, loving Wrack and the like. At L12, Guardian of the Liturgy is going to be impossible to ignore. Yes, I know that the challenge is closed, but I don't really care about the rewards. I am going to do it just to see if I can, and hopefully learn stealth play in the process. Thanks again.
    Well good luck! ROGUE Quatre is EXTREME expert stealth play so not only did one need to sneak theough stuff like Claw but for Claw we added that you need to get a ton of breakables (mostly using not WAI sweeping strikes etc to not break stealth).
    Wiki dashboard with some useful stealthplay links
    Proud Knight Templar of the Silver Legion, Cannith: Saekee (main; epic completionist); Parked Toons: Katwoemyn (10), Saelegion (4), Alitirala (4), Naerfelka (21)


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