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  1. #1
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    Default Threat reduction question

    Hi all! I posted this in the General Discussion forum with no responses. I know this is a topic near and dear to the hearts of rogue / stealth players, and I'm aware that this will likely incite 'aggro is broken' feedback, but I genuinely would like to know if I should attempt to invest heavily in diversion. I have no problem trying it out, but if it's known to be completely worthless, or non-stacking, then I'd rather not re-invent the wheel and spend time and energy on it only to frustrate myself finding out it doesn't work. I'm starting my 2nd life as a TWF rogue assassin (first life was a Mechanic), and I am quickly prioritizing defenses and ways to not be hit, even moreso than before. I know that I have a lot to learn about this playstyle, but it's what I always wanted to do, I only took Mechanic after being advised that was probably a better choice for a first time character to learn the game. BTW, I think that was good advice. Well, here goes...
    __________________________________________________ _______________________________

    I haven’t had too much luck posting on this topic in the past, but I’m hoping someone out there has some experience and is willing to share. I am actually copying a 3 year old post below as I have the exact same (then unanswered) question that the op had. I’m starting a TWF melee rogue and threat reduction is on my mind.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________________

    Diversion: let’s call it Shadow’s Embrace with Diversion +20%, but any Diversion item will do

    Shiv: Melee Attack: +1/+2/+3[W] damage. On hit: Makes a Bluff check, using your Bluff skill, for one second + .25 seconds per Rogue level. On Sneak Attack: Target also gains a -2 Fortitude Save against Poisons for 20 seconds. (Stacks 5 times.) (Cooldown: 12 seconds) Passive: Reduces the threat of all your attacks by 5/10/15%.

    Sly Flourish: Melee Attack: +1/2/3[W] with +1/2/3 critical threat range. On Sneak Attack: Intelligent target also gains a -1 penalty to Balance, Reflex, and Will saves for 20 seconds. (Stacks 5 times.) (Cooldown: 8 seconds) Passively provides: Reduces the threat of all attacks by 5/10/15%.

    Subtlety: -20%/-30%/-40% threat generation with melee attacks. (This enhancement cannot be combined with other Subtlety enhancements.)

    Shadow Training III: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 2 seconds) Toggle to generate 20% less melee and ranged threat.
    _______________________________________

    1. Which of these stack?

    2. How do they stack? (additive, multiplicative?)

    3. I've heard it stated that using the active portion of Shiv results in drawing much MORE aggro, any experiences with that?

    I’d appreciate any insights that you might have.
    Thanks
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith: Hand of Death
    Zamsil - L30 TWF VKF assassin

    I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...

  2. #2
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    Hi all! I posted this in the General Discussion forum with no responses. I know this is a topic near and dear to the hearts of rogue / stealth players, and I'm aware that this will likely incite 'aggro is broken' feedback, but I genuinely would like to know if I should attempt to invest heavily in diversion. I have no problem trying it out, but if it's known to be completely worthless, or non-stacking, then I'd rather not re-invent the wheel and spend time and energy on it only to frustrate myself finding out it doesn't work. I'm starting my 2nd life as a TWF rogue assassin (first life was a Mechanic), and I am quickly prioritizing defenses and ways to not be hit, even moreso than before. I know that I have a lot to learn about this playstyle, but it's what I always wanted to do, I only took Mechanic after being advised that was probably a better choice for a first time character to learn the game. BTW, I think that was good advice. Well, here goes...
    __________________________________________________ _______________________________

    I haven’t had too much luck posting on this topic in the past, but I’m hoping someone out there has some experience and is willing to share. I am actually copying a 3 year old post below as I have the exact same (then unanswered) question that the op had. I’m starting a TWF melee rogue and threat reduction is on my mind.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________________

    Diversion: let’s call it Shadow’s Embrace with Diversion +20%, but any Diversion item will do

    Shiv: Melee Attack: +1/+2/+3[W] damage. On hit: Makes a Bluff check, using your Bluff skill, for one second + .25 seconds per Rogue level. On Sneak Attack: Target also gains a -2 Fortitude Save against Poisons for 20 seconds. (Stacks 5 times.) (Cooldown: 12 seconds) Passive: Reduces the threat of all your attacks by 5/10/15%.

    Sly Flourish: Melee Attack: +1/2/3[W] with +1/2/3 critical threat range. On Sneak Attack: Intelligent target also gains a -1 penalty to Balance, Reflex, and Will saves for 20 seconds. (Stacks 5 times.) (Cooldown: 8 seconds) Passively provides: Reduces the threat of all attacks by 5/10/15%.

    Subtlety: -20%/-30%/-40% threat generation with melee attacks. (This enhancement cannot be combined with other Subtlety enhancements.)

    Shadow Training III: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 2 seconds) Toggle to generate 20% less melee and ranged threat.
    _______________________________________

    1. Which of these stack?

    2. How do they stack? (additive, multiplicative?)

    3. I've heard it stated that using the active portion of Shiv results in drawing much MORE aggro, any experiences with that?

    I’d appreciate any insights that you might have.
    Thanks
    They all stack.

    Threat reduction is similar to how absorbtion stacks. I forget if it’s called multiplicative or additive, but essentially they compound to further reduce threat.

    IE; if you had say 40%, 15%, and 20% threat reduction it would look like this:

    Base thread (1000) x.6 x.85 x .8

    So basically 1000 x .6 becomes 600
    Then 600 x .85 becomes 510
    Then 510 x .8 becomes 408.

    So having all three of those totals would give a total threat reduction of 59.2% from a base of 1.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    They all stack.

    Threat reduction is similar to how absorbtion stacks. I forget if it’s called multiplicative or additive, but essentially they compound to further reduce threat.

    IE; if you had say 40%, 15%, and 20% threat reduction it would look like this:

    Base thread (1000) x.6 x.85 x .8

    So basically 1000 x .6 becomes 600
    Then 600 x .85 becomes 510
    Then 510 x .8 becomes 408.

    So having all three of those totals would give a total threat reduction of 59.2% from a base of 1.
    Thank you for confirming. So many % effects in the game are additive, I'm a bit surprised that this one multiplies, though truth be told that is really the only way I could imagine it working that would make sense. I'm going to try this out. It's not the uber-DPS route for sure, but that's not my lane anyway.
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith: Hand of Death
    Zamsil - L30 TWF VKF assassin

    I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    Hi all! I posted this in the General Discussion forum with no responses. I know this is a topic near and dear to the hearts of rogue / stealth players, and I'm aware that this will likely incite 'aggro is broken' feedback, but I genuinely would like to know if I should attempt to invest heavily in diversion. I have no problem trying it out, but if it's known to be completely worthless, or non-stacking, then I'd rather not re-invent the wheel and spend time and energy on it only to frustrate myself finding out it doesn't work. I'm starting my 2nd life as a TWF rogue assassin (first life was a Mechanic), and I am quickly prioritizing defenses and ways to not be hit, even moreso than before. I know that I have a lot to learn about this playstyle, but it's what I always wanted to do, I only took Mechanic after being advised that was probably a better choice for a first time character to learn the game. BTW, I think that was good advice. Well, here goes...
    __________________________________________________ _______________________________

    I haven’t had too much luck posting on this topic in the past, but I’m hoping someone out there has some experience and is willing to share. I am actually copying a 3 year old post below as I have the exact same (then unanswered) question that the op had. I’m starting a TWF melee rogue and threat reduction is on my mind.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________________

    Diversion: let’s call it Shadow’s Embrace with Diversion +20%, but any Diversion item will do

    Shiv: Melee Attack: +1/+2/+3[W] damage. On hit: Makes a Bluff check, using your Bluff skill, for one second + .25 seconds per Rogue level. On Sneak Attack: Target also gains a -2 Fortitude Save against Poisons for 20 seconds. (Stacks 5 times.) (Cooldown: 12 seconds) Passive: Reduces the threat of all your attacks by 5/10/15%.

    Sly Flourish: Melee Attack: +1/2/3[W] with +1/2/3 critical threat range. On Sneak Attack: Intelligent target also gains a -1 penalty to Balance, Reflex, and Will saves for 20 seconds. (Stacks 5 times.) (Cooldown: 8 seconds) Passively provides: Reduces the threat of all attacks by 5/10/15%.

    Subtlety: -20%/-30%/-40% threat generation with melee attacks. (This enhancement cannot be combined with other Subtlety enhancements.)

    Shadow Training III: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 2 seconds) Toggle to generate 20% less melee and ranged threat.
    _______________________________________

    1. Which of these stack?

    2. How do they stack? (additive, multiplicative?)

    3. I've heard it stated that using the active portion of Shiv results in drawing much MORE aggro, any experiences with that?

    I’d appreciate any insights that you might have.
    Thanks
    Thanks to the new stats tab, I can answer at least a part of this age old question. They are all additive, not multiplicative. They all stack. Shiv currently provides no passive threat reduction. I don't know if this is a bug, or if the wiki is just wrong. I'll be happy to update the wiki if a dev can confirm that Shiv is not intended to provide this.

    I took the time to add the following to my L30 toon tonight. Effect on melee threat multiplier listed, and as stated they all stack.

    Shiv III: 0% (no effect)
    Sly Flourish III: -15%, WAI
    Subtlety III: -40%, WAI
    Shadow Training III: -20%, WAI
    rangen Diversion +13% item: -13%, WAI
    Leg. Knifepalm- insightful Diversion +15%: -15%, WAI

    And yes, these add up to a melee threat multiplier of -103%. And no, I don't really know what that means. My assumption would be that the formula for threat works like this.

    Threat = base threat * (1 + Multiplier)

    So if you have threat multiplier of -50%, then Threat=base threat * (1 + (-0.5)) = threat reduced by 50%. I do not know what negative threat is. I wonder now whether the concerns some had that going below -100% threat reduction would somehow roll around to positive threat were valid concerns. If an unsigned binary value represents threat, which could have happened if it was never originally intended to go below 0, then it could be that subtracting below zero will result in a large threat value. i.e. [00000000] minus one = [11111111]. I'm probably wrong, but maybe some food for thought.

    I'd like to hear an official response on the validity of this assumed mathematical use of threat multiplier, as well as some idea of what a multiplier of -103% is actually doing. And either way, thank you again for the new tab! I LOVE these QoL improvements.
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith: Hand of Death
    Zamsil - L30 TWF VKF assassin

    I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...

  5. #5
    Community Member DYWYPI's Avatar
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    It doesn't look like the '[2015] DDO Wiki Shiv Description' corresponds to the in-game "tooltip" description. The version in game doesn't seem to mention anything about passive 'Threat Reduction', e.g. "Passive: Reduces the threat of all your attacks by 5/10/15%.". The only place I could find official reference to that "Threat Reduction" was: https://ddowiki.com/page/Update_25_R...s#Enhancements.

    So whether or not it is applying I don't just know but I haven't noticed it applying then again I'm not a Combat Log junkie. Since 'Shiv' is a physical melee attack, it's going to put you upon the Monster's "Hate" list if damage is caused.

  6. #6
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
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    Shiv seems to neither reduce threat passively or on activation, but does still make the target vulnerable to sneak attacks. Subtle enhancement and Shadowdancer stance works and shows in the new character tab. Improved Feint also shows the correct threat reduction when used successfully even when they target saves a bluff check or is immune to bluff. Sly Flourish also provides the correct threat reduction for each rank.

    I've no idea when or why the threat reduction was removed from the enhancement, but would think it was when a bug was fixed that prevented it from allowing sneak attacks on use against red named monsters.

    Shadow training III 20%
    Sly Flourish 15%
    Subtlety 40%
    Diversion item 14% (gives 15)
    Insightful Diversion item 4%
    Improved Feint 40%
    Shiv 0%
    Melee Threat Multiplier -134% shown in character sheet.
    Last edited by HuneyMunster; 11-16-2019 at 05:02 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuneyMunster View Post
    Shiv seems to neither reduce threat passively or on activation, but does still make the target vulnerable to sneak attacks. Subtle enhancement and Shadowdancer stance works and shows in the new character tab. Improved Feint also shows the correct threat reduction when used successfully even when they target saves a bluff check or is immune to bluff. Sly Flourish also provides the correct threat reduction for each rank.

    I've no idea when or why the threat reduction was removed from the enhancement, but would think it was when a bug was fixed that prevented it from allowing sneak attacks on use against red named monsters.

    Shadow training III 20%
    Sly Flourish 15%
    Subtlety 40%
    Diversion item 14% (gives 15)
    Insightful Diversion item 4%
    Improved Feint 40%
    Shiv 0%
    Melee Threat Multiplier -134% shown in character sheet.
    Thanks! I forgot about Improved Feint, which I am using constantly thanks to Saekee. I was imagining that it would reduce threat only for the specific mobs Feinted, and not overall as reflected on the character sheet, but it seems you've shown that to be the case. Nice work. Since it is basically an AoE Bluff, I assume that Bluff works the same way. I am again left wondering what a -134% threat multiplier does, and if it's better than a -94% multiplier.

    I would guess that the decrease in threat was removed from Shiv at some point. I've run into this many times on the wiki. It would be interesting to find out when and why this happened.

    This thread from a few years ago is the one I was referring to. I think Psychoblonde may have been onto something. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...reat-Reduction
    Last edited by 0ldschool; 11-18-2019 at 12:56 PM.
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith: Hand of Death
    Zamsil - L30 TWF VKF assassin

    I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    I would guess that the decrease in threat was removed from Shiv at some point. I've run into this many times on the wiki. It would be interesting to find out when and why this happened.
    https://ddowiki.com/page/Update_25_Release_Notes

    "Shiv no longer reduces threat when you attack, and instead offers an additional passive bonus that reduces the threat of all your attacks by 5/10/15%. The attack also makes a Bluff check, using your Bluff skill, when you strike an opponent, for one second + .25 seconds per Rogue level.)"

    I'll bet money that Shiv's passive bonus to threat reduction was not properly implemented in Update 25, and that we simply never had a way to confirm whether or not it was working until now.
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith: Hand of Death
    Zamsil - L30 TWF VKF assassin

    I've got a Dungeon Master's Guide... I've got 12 sided die...

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