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  1. #1
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    Default Ideas to improve Bows

    I think everyone agrees that Bows are severely lacking compared to the other ranged options right now. They fire slower and hit for less than optimized xbow/gxbow or shuriken builds. They're not hitscan like bolts.

    However, I dont think the solution is to just up their DPS to the same point - that's not adding anything, and its always going to end up in a situation where one ranged approach is slightly better than the others. What are some other ways we can improve bow combat?

    I'll give my thoughts...ranged combat right now is so useful mainly because of one thing: IPS. It gives a linear AOE to all your attacks, letting you greatly multiply your outgoing DPS by hitting multiple mobs with full-powered attacks. I think bows, since they already have lower base DPS potential, could expand on that aspect instead. Add a few Bow-only feats, exclusive with IPS, that add different AOE geometries: a target-based circular splash ("Shattershot"), a self-based cone attack ("Multishot"), and a 3-target chain attack ("Ricochet Shot"), all of which I think are more practical than a linear AOE. Kind of bridge the gap between ranged combat and Warlock blasting.

    I think that could create build possibilities for Bow archery that arent trying to do exactly the same thing as Inquisitive and Shuricannon and Mechanic, that have a different feel for playing, but would be more useful in certain situations.

    But that's just one idea...any other creative possibilities for bringing Bows back into relevance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I think everyone agrees that Bows are severely lacking compared to the other ranged options right now. They fire slower and hit for less than optimized xbow/gxbow or shuriken builds. They're not hitscan like bolts.

    However, I dont think the solution is to just up their DPS to the same point - that's not adding anything, and its always going to end up in a situation where one ranged approach is slightly better than the others. What are some other ways we can improve bow combat?

    I'll give my thoughts...ranged combat right now is so useful mainly because of one thing: IPS. It gives a linear AOE to all your attacks, letting you greatly multiply your outgoing DPS by hitting multiple mobs with full-powered attacks. I think bows, since they already have lower base DPS potential, could expand on that aspect instead. Add a few Bow-only feats, exclusive with IPS, that add different AOE geometries: a target-based circular splash ("Shattershot"), a self-based cone attack ("Multishot"), and a 3-target chain attack ("Ricochet Shot"), all of which I think are more practical than a linear AOE. Kind of bridge the gap between ranged combat and Warlock blasting.

    I think that could create build possibilities for Bow archery that arent trying to do exactly the same thing as Inquisitive and Shuricannon and Mechanic, that have a different feel for playing, but would be more useful in certain situations.

    But that's just one idea...any other creative possibilities for bringing Bows back into relevance?
    I think bows need about 30-50% increase in attack speed. That would put it close to the DPS from other ranged toons.
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    Clearly the answer is dual wielding Longbows.



    If you want to make bows unique, and don't care to bring their DPS up to other ranged DPS levels, there's the Arcane Archer tree. It has some interesting stuff, but I supposed they could revamp it to make it more attractive/a good alternative to other ranged DPS builds. Add some type of AoE mechanic where a % of their attacks will hit everything in a certain area. It could just be 3-4% per core ability or something along those lines so that with enough doubleshot, 40-50% of their attacks are hitting everything (think extended warlock cone shape). That might make them pretty fun.
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    Community Member ShifterThePirate's Avatar
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    Reduce Manyshot cooldown by A LOT! 2 Minute cooldown is ridicilous...
    Maybe give bows higher crit multipliers? So the higher damage makes up for slower firing speed compared to crossbows. Or something to pierce through armor/fort?
    Or some special boosts for quivers.... but only works for short/long bow users.
    Last edited by ShifterThePirate; 09-20-2019 at 01:54 PM.

  5. #5
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    idea I pitched in a previous thread....

    Get rid of the Archer's Focus Feat and it's incompatibility with improved precise shot. Instead have an archers focus type effect that is auto-granted and passive. The main issue other players have with ranged toons is kiting. Give the ranged toons a better reason to stay still and risk taking damage. As long as you aren't making a significant movement action provide a series of bonuses (to hit / damage, ranged power, attack speed, and maybe even some type of crit bonus after longer increments. Have all of them cap at a number of stacks like archers focus does.

    Enhancements could be added to further modify the applied bonuses.

    I think temporary critical multipliers applied in the fashion above would go a long way.

    edit - i say ranged in general, but this could be focused more towards bow users...
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    For long bows, I would rather invest in making rangers better. Give them a wildlife hire or something. An extra, extra multiplier. More bow speed. A special attack that doesn't include the wack rain of arrows. Talk about a sucky top tier move...

    For shortbows I'd make them sexy to single classes. Like a d-door usage. "using your shortbow at rogue level 16, you can fire a grapple hook that takes you back to the start. And Shortbows should fire as fast as light crossbows. if they did you would immediately have an another option in bows.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenaphon View Post
    I think bows need about 30-50% increase in attack speed. That would put it close to the DPS from other ranged toons.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShifterThePirate View Post
    Reduce Manyshot cooldown by A LOT! 2 Minute cooldown is ridicilous...
    Maybe give bows higher crit multipliers? So the higher damage makes up for slower firing speed compared to crossbows.
    That's still just finding different paths to end up at the same place: DPS is DPS, no matter how it breaks down with speed vs crit vs base damage. That's not differentiating ranged weapons from each other, they all end up playing the same. Thats why I thought AoE geometries might be a better way to differentiate them - it'll change how you actually play the class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    If you want to make bows unique, and don't care to bring their DPS up to other ranged DPS levels, there's the Arcane Archer tree.
    AA is a good start, but I wouldnt want bows usefulness to be tied to a specific enhancement (or race, ie Elves and Helves). I do like how AA has some really good CC effects that arent just DPS related...but I dont like that you have to totally sell out on DPS to get it. I'm not looking for Bows to be zDPS options, I'm just looking for them to have different kinds of DPS than current ranged builds - good in different situations, not just using the same approach to playing. I did think that AA with an AoE toggle would be interesting and create some possibilities, both for the DPS and the CC lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurnerD View Post
    The main issue other players have with ranged toons is kiting. Give the ranged toons a better reason to stay still and risk taking damage.

    edit - i say ranged in general, but this could be focused more towards bow users...
    I dont think kiting is necessarily a problem or a wrong way to play (except if you're making it hard on your melee party mates to help you). But I dont know if "stationary ranged fighting" is the right niche to differentiate bows, considering its not a very good idea, which is why people kite in the first place. Also the classes that support bow use - Ranger, Monk - are not really tanky.

    That might be something to explore more for RXBs, which also need some help with their niche...I kinda like that idea too. Make Archer's Focus compatible with IPS, and move it from Precise Shot to RXB Proficiency, also making it RXB-specific. Change it to 3% damage per stack, not 3 RP. And move Improved Archer's Focus from DWS to BE. Maybe change it to "Lay Siege", considering. Builds that can use RXBs most naturally - Arti, Paladin, War Domain Cleric - are more tanky and stationary already, so this might create the possibility for more heavy-armor, non-mobile, artillery-style ranged characters.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    Clearly the answer is dual wielding Longbows.



    If you want to make bows unique, and don't care to bring their DPS up to other ranged DPS levels, there's the Arcane Archer tree. It has some interesting stuff, but I supposed they could revamp it to make it more attractive/a good alternative to other ranged DPS builds. Add some type of AoE mechanic where a % of their attacks will hit everything in a certain area. It could just be 3-4% per core ability or something along those lines so that with enough doubleshot, 40-50% of their attacks are hitting everything (think extended warlock cone shape). That might make them pretty fun.

    Clearly the answer is dual wielding .... Oh, you beat me to it.

    Dual-wielding bows with hands would be just silly-looking. Maybe a dual-wielding bow user could dual-wield using both hands and feet, kind of like an exercise machine.

    Or maybe SSG will get 'original' and create something like "Gygax's Gatling Greaser", a mythical 'bow', on a tripod, where the user stands behind the 'bow' and spins a crank to shoot magical 'arrows'. AWESOME!

  9. #9
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    That's still just finding different paths to end up at the same place: DPS is DPS, no matter how it breaks down with speed vs crit vs base damage. That's not differentiating ranged weapons from each other, they all end up playing the same. Thats why I thought AoE geometries might be a better way to differentiate them - it'll change how you actually play the class.
    If you don't bring the DPS up to par you will end up in the same place you are now.

    Look at THF vs TWF, THF is much like you are suggesting has innate better AOE but because the DPS is not on par no one plays it, and the DPS difference between THF and TWF is no where near the DPS difference between Bows and Other Ranged Weapons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    AA is a good start, but I wouldnt want bows usefulness to be tied to a specific enhancement (or race, ie Elves and Helves).

    Agreed, everytime I see a fix AA thread I want to know what about DWS or anyone else that should be good with a bow. Bows themselves need a bit of a tweak, less so the specific enhancement lines that deal with them.

  11. #11
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurnerD View Post
    idea I pitched in a previous thread....

    Get rid of the Archer's Focus Feat and it's incompatibility with improved precise shot. Instead have an archers focus type effect that is auto-granted and passive. The main issue other players have with ranged toons is kiting. Give the ranged toons a better reason to stay still and risk taking damage. As long as you aren't making a significant movement action provide a series of bonuses (to hit / damage, ranged power, attack speed, and maybe even some type of crit bonus after longer increments. Have all of them cap at a number of stacks like archers focus does.

    Enhancements could be added to further modify the applied bonuses.

    I think temporary critical multipliers applied in the fashion above would go a long way.

    edit - i say ranged in general, but this could be focused more towards bow users...
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  12. #12
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    SSG will give us a pay-2-win tree that'll let us dual fire Longbows that we load with our knees.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    SSG will give us a pay-2-win tree that'll let us dual fire Longbows that we load with our knees.
    I would prefer a P2W Monkey Grip Tree that allows dual wielding ThF
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  14. #14
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    Why can't I have 360 degree dragonbreath for 5k TP?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    Why can't I have 360 degree dragonbreath for 5k TP?
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    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaboom2112 View Post
    SSG will give us a pay-2-win tree that'll let us dual fire Longbows that we load with our knees.
    Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efX1cKLki5Y
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  17. #17
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    Hello friend. I support the idea and have other things at mind. If you please let me bring them on the table under your post.


    Base bow damage and speed should be much faster than crossbows. ( At least %10 alacrity and better critical threat. Free Shot on the run like feat giving +%15 to hit chance even when moving and shooting instead of +4 ) Many shot should have faster cooldown but may be a bit weaker in return. These should be before level 12 Ranger to ensure Ranged side of Ranger is not gimped at mid heroics. There may be a toggle effect to do a power shot or speed shot aswell.


    Other things to consider for physical classes to make the game more fun for casual players and new would be fans;


    Directly related to physical combat and survival; Ranger class need passive movement bonus with each level. It should be same with Thief acrobat (I wish it was a passive class ability for Rogue class in general aswell as +%1 dodge every other level for Rogues only-Uncanny dodge passive dodge is weak for this era). Rangers at D&D are known with their supreme constitution abilities and ambidexterity. Adding extra hitpoints and temporary hitpoints auto triggered with % chance during fights aswell as extra rolls for Fortitude saves. Rangers shall get extra bonus to Two weapon fighting in general. A boost to Ranger class in general instead of Tempest only.

    Barbarian also needs passive boost to running %10 first level +%5 at 6 For splash builds. Reward for going even further +% 15 at 12; +%20 more at lvl 20. (So pure barbarians would get +%50 passive running speed and %30 passive attack speed ) Say %6 passive attack speed every five levels (?). Barbarian total hitpoints and saves in general shall get a significant boost. There shall be passive boost to reflex and will saves every three levels without any investment or Rage activated.


    Fighters shall get bonus rolls to will and fortitude saves aswell as extra temprorary hitpoints that pop up during fights with % chance. Passive bonus to Basic Tactical feats without investment and better double strike chance.


    Rangers meant to have animal companions for life ( something like Skeleton of Palemaster with improved stats and CR but say optional choices for Rangers. Bird of prey, rodent or canine/cat type etc. ). This will not be under spells section.


    Paladins have their mounts (which seems pretty hard to do at DDO for now). It may be a companion that boosts movement speed for Paladins ,temporarily through Charisma ability score and casting , at the wilderness may be as if it is a mount without having to ride a mount- A visual Horse effect and a neighing sound effect as if Paladin is about to ride away ? (Reminds me a joke a poster made sometime a go. Pony as a gift. Well Paladins would like that )


    Side effects and a real reason to use least used weapons for all classes. Good bonuses to Staves, Sickles, Kukri, Kamas. Real power to clubs and Great clubs with extra threat or multiplier and extra bonuses for stun and/or knockout as inbuilt specs. ( I remeber stun was blunt weapons only many years ago. It was before a long break I gave and never changed back later on...I keep giving long breaks but allways getting back to DDO; much before I got a forum account. Had log and server auto kick off issues from EU those days )


    Another thing to consider. A revamp for basic feats in general; such as Combat expertise changed to hp/prr/mrr. Similar revamp for Dodge line, Resilience and passive Saves feats combined and refined, such as improved saves boost every -insert level. Toughness feat giving % HP, . Say auto granted; passive boost to all basic feats every six levels or similar before reaching Epic feats. All valuble changes for keeping old and new players in the game.


    Thanks for reading. Stay cool.


    Last edited by Kutalp; 09-21-2019 at 03:32 AM.

  18. #18
    Community Member LTForge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I'll give my thoughts...ranged combat right now is so useful mainly because of one thing: IPS. It gives a linear AOE to all your attacks, letting you greatly multiply your outgoing DPS by hitting multiple mobs with full-powered attacks. I think bows, since they already have lower base DPS potential, could expand on that aspect instead. Add a few Bow-only feats, exclusive with IPS, that add different AOE geometries: a target-based circular splash ("Shattershot"), a self-based cone attack ("Multishot"), and a 3-target chain attack ("Ricochet Shot"), all of which I think are more practical than a linear AOE. Kind of bridge the gap between ranged combat and Warlock blasting.
    Yeah I could get behind this. Not sure what the best place to put it would be though, active abilities as part of a tree, active abilities granted by PS/IPS, new feats entirely? Personally because of how thoroughly un-fun I find ranged builds before level 12, I'd like to see it laid out like this

    -Pick up PS, get these as active abilities, but have them share a (short!) cooldown
    -Pick up IPS, get three more, improved versions of the abilities which also share a (SHORT!) cooldown, but don't share cooldowns with the ones picked up from PS

    If they were bow only I don't think that would put them on the same playing field as some of the current meta-ranged builds, but having powerful, AoE based active abilities you actually have to think about would go a long LONG way in making Bows a more engaging and useful weapon type.

  19. #19
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
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    Release a P2W PRE
    Without new players DDO will go the way of the dodo.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by LTForge View Post
    Yeah I could get behind this. Not sure what the best place to put it would be though, active abilities as part of a tree, active abilities granted by PS/IPS, new feats entirely? Personally because of how thoroughly un-fun I find ranged builds before level 12, I'd like to see it laid out like this

    -Pick up PS, get these as active abilities, but have them share a (short!) cooldown
    -Pick up IPS, get three more, improved versions of the abilities which also share a (SHORT!) cooldown, but don't share cooldowns with the ones picked up from PS
    I was actually thinking of them being stances like IPS itself. Like all your attacks would become cone-AOE or circular splash AOE or chain, the way IPS turns them all into line-AOE. And they'd be feats like IPS - so you'd choose one geometry you want, instead of IPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    If you don't bring the DPS up to par you will end up in the same place you are now.

    Look at THF vs TWF, THF is much like you are suggesting has innate better AOE but because the DPS is not on par no one plays it
    I do want the DPS to be on par, but I want it to be situational, not just point-for-point on paper or the training dummy. If you could have ie a permanent chain attack, then your DPS would always be triple anytime there was 3 or more enemies around...IPS doesnt work nearly as well when enemies are spread out or not in a line, so even though the Bow itself isnt putting out identical per-shot damage to an Inqui Xbow or a Mech GXB, it does more damage overall because of the AOE multiplier.

    Also, THF is supposed to be the melee AOE style, but in reality GBs are so weak that they do not accomplish that goal. If GBs simply worked like IPS, where every GB was a full-fledged attack of its own, then THF would be awesome and probably the most popular melee style.

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