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  1. #1
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    Default How to fix OPness of some range toons.

    Its pretty simple. Leave the DPS of range toons (add dps for archers), but take away their ability to kite. You should not be able to move at full speed and reload. It would lead to perching, but that happens anyway right now.
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    Making ranged toons actually aim at their targets would go a long way to nerfing their output. If you can walk into a room and keep your finger on the trigger while it automatically soft targets everything in turn, you are at a serious advantage to a clunky, walk-up-to-and-bash-on-each-target melee.

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    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandelia View Post
    Making ranged toons actually aim at their targets would go a long way to nerfing their output. If you can walk into a room and keep your finger on the trigger while it automatically soft targets everything in turn, you are at a serious advantage to a clunky, walk-up-to-and-bash-on-each-target melee.
    While true in game it wouldnt stop the nerf demands, as the "evidence" for said demands often comes in the form of DPSing a mob that stands in one place, and does not fight back - something that already doesnt happen in the game environment.

    This would also put a higher skill ceiling on ranged play ~overwatch, but in a community that provides negative feedback about 1-2 APM mechanics being "annoying." (need a bigger trophy case for all the QQ that would follow)
    Examples: barbarian frenzy / death frenzy, original bard stat song,

  4. #4
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    My Inqui has Shot on the Run, so I definitely should be able to move and shoot. Also, why cant you draw an arrow and walk at the same time?

    Melee should not be able to hit a target while backpedaling either, so make them ground and pound too.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandelia View Post
    Making ranged toons actually aim at their targets would go a long way to nerfing their output. If you can walk into a room and keep your finger on the trigger while it automatically soft targets everything in turn, you are at a serious advantage to a clunky, walk-up-to-and-bash-on-each-target melee.
    Its not a FPS, and the game lags so much that twitch aiming would be a disaster.

    Plus auto target is not how you want to go when there's a room full of mobs anyway. Its only ensuring your IPS does nothing because you're always targeting a mob in front. You either want to hit your Target Next button three times or so to get a target towards the back, or what I find most effective regardless of the specific situation is just to scatter your fire - tab through your targets slowly, like maybe every half second, while you hold down the trigger. This will give you a good chance to multi-hit often no matter the geometry of the mobs, and helps ensure you're not left with one mob at 100% health after you've mowed everyone else down.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    My Inqui has Shot on the Run, so I definitely should be able to move and shoot. Also, why cant you draw an arrow and walk at the same time?

    Melee should not be able to hit a target while backpedaling either, so make them ground and pound too.
    I understand shooting on the run, but not reloading xbows on the run. As for melee back pedaling... if they move backwards, they would be out of melee range. Historically.. ranged units, unless on horses could not kite their enemy. Also, it is kind of stupid that you can hit anything you see no matter how far they are as easily as they are right in front of you.
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  7. #7
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Kiting can be fixed by simply doing the following....

    1. Stop having the UI have packs of mobs line up like Tusken Raiders marching
    2. When they can't catch you, they stop an shoot
    3. Give appropriate mobs Net type weapons
    4. Bring the Darkness Spell into the game
    5. Bring in Wall of Wind and Wall of Force

    I'm actually ok with being able to load, shoot and run at the same time as long as they have Shot-On-The-Run feat.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Kiting can be fixed by simply doing the following....

    1. Stop having the UI have packs of mobs line up like Tusken Raiders marching
    2. When they can't catch you, they stop an shoot
    3. Give appropriate mobs Net type weapons
    4. Bring the Darkness Spell into the game
    5. Bring in Wall of Wind and Wall of Force

    I'm actually ok with being able to load, shoot and run at the same time as long as they have Shot-On-The-Run feat.
    That sounds like an easy fix. All they have to change is the AI to make it smarter and add more spells.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenaphon View Post
    Its pretty simple. Leave the DPS of range toons (add dps for archers), but take away their ability to kite. You should not be able to move at full speed and reload. It would lead to perching, but that happens anyway right now.
    There is multiple penalties to kiting already. Most ranged know of 1 and dont care about the other. The first being the penalty to to-hit, the 2nd is the actual damage loss.

    While kiting you don't get 1: stand and deliver. 2: archers focus. 3: you make it harder for everyone else in party to hit(so less overall damage). So if you are a melee running with a ranged and they are kiting. Let them have that mob, if it kills them just laugh at them and tell em should learn how to handle agro or take a hit.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Kiting can be fixed by simply doing the following....

    1. Stop having the UI have packs of mobs line up like Tusken Raiders marching
    2. When they can't catch you, they stop an shoot
    3. Give appropriate mobs Net type weapons
    4. Bring the Darkness Spell into the game
    5. Bring in Wall of Wind and Wall of Force

    I'm actually ok with being able to load, shoot and run at the same time as long as they have Shot-On-The-Run feat.
    this would be a saltmine, when it turns out wall of force blocks incoming heals and ends up hurting melee more than anyone.

  11. #11
    Community Member Karthunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenaphon View Post
    Its pretty simple. Leave the DPS of range toons (add dps for archers), but take away their ability to kite. You should not be able to move at full speed and reload. It would lead to perching, but that happens anyway right now.
    You want to nerf range builds ability to solo?? How does people soloing have any type of impact on your daily gameplay?

    Some of you people are getting ridiculous with your calls for unneeded nerfs.

  12. #12
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenaphon View Post
    Its pretty simple. Leave the DPS of range toons (add dps for archers), but take away their ability to kite. You should not be able to move at full speed and reload. It would lead to perching, but that happens anyway right now.
    I disagree kiteing is not the only advantage Ranged has over melee.

    First Strike, the offensive Ranged Advantage, is also big if the DPS of a Ranged and Melee Player is the same the lead time (applying DPS sooner) will mean that the Ranged toon will always do more DPS to a given target. The other part of the offensive Ranged Advantage is that all ranged combat is AOE because of Improved Precise Shot this is a DDO exclusive thing though.

    Kiteing is not the only part of the defensive Ranged Advantage in a Tank and Spank situation the Ranged too can avoid a lot of AOE damage by just be out of the radius of the blast or cleave.

    Both the offensive and defensive Ranged Advantage need to be addressed if you want to have balance between melee and ranged.

  13. #13
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    Being able to hit opponents at a distance and do damage before the melee can even get there is probably the big advantage of ranged (that and being far away from being hit themselves unless the opponent is also ranged).

    But the type of quest can have quite an impact on this. "Outside" quests with large areas favour ranged combat more, but "inside" quests featuring small rooms and corridors negate that advantage to some extent (and makes it a bit harder to kite as well).

    And I agree with Enoach above that smarter AI with more ranged options or tactics would also help even the odds.
    Last edited by cpw_acc; 09-20-2019 at 11:29 AM.

  14. #14
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    There's zero reason to change any of the fundamentals of this game (except things that don't work like Freedom of Movement). Inquisitive is OP. Ok we know. It's the lastest OP thing they need to sell. That's ok with me. It'll get nerfed just like all the other OP stuff they wanted/needed to sell. This is a pretty clear cycle for this game.

    Now how OP will be Alchemist be? That is the question.

  15. #15
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    I disagree kiteing is not the only advantage Ranged has over melee.

    First Strike, the offensive Ranged Advantage, is also big if the DPS of a Ranged and Melee Player is the same the lead time (applying DPS sooner) will mean that the Ranged toon will always do more DPS to a given target. The other part of the offensive Ranged Advantage is that all ranged combat is AOE because of Improved Precise Shot this is a DDO exclusive thing though.

    Kiteing is not the only part of the defensive Ranged Advantage in a Tank and Spank situation the Ranged too can avoid a lot of AOE damage by just be out of the radius of the blast or cleave.

    Both the offensive and defensive Ranged Advantage need to be addressed if you want to have balance between melee and ranged.
    It is not rocked science, yet whenever a dev designs a new encounter, we always get the same thing. A mob that cleaves / drops mines/ knocksback / slows on melee range / has a breath attack on short range / teleports ...

    At the same time, we have an infinity of perch spots.

    So maybe start fixing the design problem, then move to the dps one. Often we get caught in small discussions but this is just trivially obvious and one of the biggest if not the biggest problem with melee dps.

  16. #16
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenaphon View Post
    Its pretty simple. Leave the DPS of range toons (add dps for archers), but take away their ability to kite. You should not be able to move at full speed and reload. It would lead to perching, but that happens anyway right now.
    leave my toon alone and play yours. IJS.
    Sometimes I pull one out just to watch it die over and over. That's how much I hate hires.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    leave my toon alone and play yours. IJS.
    I do play range toons. One of them being a inq. Even when I play a ranged toon, I do not like kiting concept. Taking advantage of stupid AI seems wrong, like taking money from your slow cousin.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenaphon View Post
    I do play range toons. One of them being a inq. Even when I play a ranged toon, I do not like kiting concept. Taking advantage of stupid AI seems wrong, like taking money from your slow cousin.
    Kiting is something that actual real-world militaries have used for over 5000 years. Firing on your enemy as you retreat is a perfectly valid strategy.

    If you prefer to go siege mode when you're ranged, that's fine too - and there definitely is room to improve that archetype in DDO and differentiate it more from a mobile "skirmisher" ranged build...but dont endorse the concept that kiting is somehow cheesing or abusing or an unworthy approach.

    I wouldnt mind seeing, e.g. Archer's Focus get improved to maybe be straight % damage instead of just RP. Maybe an alternative to IPS that gives your attacks a small splash AOE or a self-centered cone AOE instead of a line AOE (I'd love to make a Multishot Amazon in DDO lol), but only if you're stationary (and is compatible with Archers Focus). Maybe an active "bunker down" feat that will enhance your tankiness but breaks on movement.
    Last edited by droid327; 09-20-2019 at 12:33 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Kiting can be fixed by simply doing the following....

    1. Stop having the UI have packs of mobs line up like Tusken Raiders marching
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  20. #20
    Community Member Yamani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    It is not rocked science, yet whenever a dev designs a new encounter, we always get the same thing. A mob that cleaves / drops mines/ knocksback / slows on melee range / has a breath attack on short range / teleports ...

    At the same time, we have an infinity of perch spots.

    So maybe start fixing the design problem, then move to the dps one. Often we get caught in small discussions but this is just trivially obvious and one of the biggest if not the biggest problem with melee dps.
    Most of sharn was given rune arms/ranged attacks. Heck even the Cannith titan has his force attack and a massive attack range with agro resetting constantly. You only notice what effects you, and that is the problem.

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