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Thread: Overall Balance

  1. #1
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    Default Overall Balance

    For the overall health of the game, I would like to see some balance changes.

    1. Reaper. I think there is too much power creep in reaper. And that Most of the benefits of reaper are used ONLY in reaper, it divides the player base.
    To change this I propose this. Since Reaper core abilities 2 though 6 already are universal (not just in reaper mode), they should be the basis of what we want.
    Get rid of the reaper trees, and replace them with a reaper feat slot. Say, first at 2nd level and one each 3 levels after 2nd, 5th, 8th level, so on. Have these be minor things, such as +3 hps, +1 MP, +1 fort save, so on.
    And have these be universal (not just in reaper mode). Have the amount of feats you get (ie. at what level you stop getting them) be based on how many reaper points you have. ie. 1 reaper point gets you the first feat slot at 2nd level, 3 reaper points get you the slot at 5th level, and so on. till max reaper points get you all the slots. I think this (plus add maybe more non power things, such as cosmetics) would be worth the reaper grind, and keep reaper tough, plus take away that "after so many reaper points, reaper is easier then elite thing".
    And for people that think having all reaper rewards useful outside of reaper mode. This would actually decrease the amount of power creep, even OUTSIDE reaper mode.

    2. Past Lives. I LOVE past lives, I'm at 103 past lives right now. But I think maybe they should be rebalanced. Though most past lives are defense in nature, they are still power creep. Take Epic Martial past life feats. Passive Bonus: +2 AC per stack of this Past Life and +1 AC per ten character levels. Drop that to Passive Bonus: +1 AC per stack of this Past Life and +1 AC per ten character levels. And you decrease AC by 12 for someone that has all 12 Martial past life feats. I just think that maybe a rebalancing of them, might be good.

    3. Ranged vs Melee (RP vs MP). I think, that any standing still Ranged DPS (ones that use Ranged Power) should be only on average at max 80% DPS of a Melee DPS. Melee DPS (non tank) have to build survivability into their build, not just DPS, they have to balance AC, PRR, and MP/DPS, where Range DPS, just has to think of MORE DPS, when building a character. Range DPS can switch targets easily, while melee DPS must move form target to target. losing DPS with each move. Melee DPS must be near the mob, where ranged DPS can be far from the mob, there for more risk of getting hurt.

    4. Ranged vs Melee (SP vs MP). Any spells or spell like abilities (anything that uses Spell power or spell points) should do as much or more then normal melee DPS, but should be balanced by the amount of spell points the character has. If a caster can cast all though the dungeon without any concern to how many spell points he or she has, then the balance is gone. A caster should have to CHOOSE when to cast. So, this should be put back into balance. Casters should fear running out of spell points, I do not see that being the case at the moment. And for spell like abilities that do not use spell power, they should be balanced down in power to level below melee DPS.

    5 Kiting, Range characters kite, we all know it, we do it because it works. I propose that all ranged attacks that are effected by ranged power have a 25% miss chance if the character is moving. I know some people will say they already have a -4 to hit when moving, well with all the changes to the game, that -4 is nothing. Also, all spells or spell like abilities have a + 25% spell failure chance while moving.

    6. Aggro. Well we all get this, when we play melee, we charge at the enemy, we are about to them, then a ranged character shoots one of them, and they all run at the ranged character, we are then running back after the mobs as they chase the ranged character that then starts kitting the mobs around, and we end up not getting one hit in to get the aggro from the ranged character. Well I would like to see that all mobs that melee attacks are their main attack have increased aggro on melee characters, even before the first attack is made. I don't know how this would work, maybe have some way to flag a character as melee DPS, then have an increase of aggro giving to them for melee mobs that lasts for an amount of seconds, even if they get attacked by a ranged player. Also maybe have ranged mobs more likely to attack ranged players.

    7. Quests. We all know that newer quests are tougher then older quests, I would like to see a pass to balance this out, most quest of the same level should be that same toughness.

    8. When balancing playstyles and classes, more power and abilities should be added to the 18th and 20th level abilities, this way it mostly will only effect that class. If a class is lacking just add + 5 MP (or such) to the level 20 abilities.

    9. Balance down. When balancing power and classes and such, please balance down, not up. Thanks

  2. #2
    Community Member kelavas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tianie View Post
    For the overall health of the game, I would like to see some balance changes.

    1. Reaper. I think there is too much power creep in reaper. And that Most of the benefits of reaper are used ONLY in reaper, it divides the player base.
    To change this I propose this. Since Reaper core abilities 2 though 6 already are universal (not just in reaper mode), they should be the basis of what we want.
    Get rid of the reaper trees, and replace them with a reaper feat slot. Say, first at 2nd level and one each 3 levels after 2nd, 5th, 8th level, so on. Have these be minor things, such as +3 hps, +1 MP, +1 fort save, so on.
    And have these be universal (not just in reaper mode). Have the amount of feats you get (ie. at what level you stop getting them) be based on how many reaper points you have. ie. 1 reaper point gets you the first feat slot at 2nd level, 3 reaper points get you the slot at 5th level, and so on. till max reaper points get you all the slots. I think this (plus add maybe more non power things, such as cosmetics) would be worth the reaper grind, and keep reaper tough, plus take away that "after so many reaper points, reaper is easier then elite thing".
    And for people that think having all reaper rewards useful outside of reaper mode. This would actually decrease the amount of power creep, even OUTSIDE reaper mode.

    2. Past Lives. I LOVE past lives, I'm at 103 past lives right now. But I think maybe they should be rebalanced. Though most past lives are defense in nature, they are still power creep. Take Epic Martial past life feats. Passive Bonus: +2 AC per stack of this Past Life and +1 AC per ten character levels. Drop that to Passive Bonus: +1 AC per stack of this Past Life and +1 AC per ten character levels. And you decrease AC by 12 for someone that has all 12 Martial past life feats. I just think that maybe a rebalancing of them, might be good.

    3. Ranged vs Melee (RP vs MP). I think, that any standing still Ranged DPS (ones that use Ranged Power) should be only on average at max 80% DPS of a Melee DPS. Melee DPS (non tank) have to build survivability into their build, not just DPS, they have to balance AC, PRR, and MP/DPS, where Range DPS, just has to think of MORE DPS, when building a character. Range DPS can switch targets easily, while melee DPS must move form target to target. losing DPS with each move. Melee DPS must be near the mob, where ranged DPS can be far from the mob, there for more risk of getting hurt.

    4. Ranged vs Melee (SP vs MP). Any spells or spell like abilities (anything that uses Spell power or spell points) should do as much or more then normal melee DPS, but should be balanced by the amount of spell points the character has. If a caster can cast all though the dungeon without any concern to how many spell points he or she has, then the balance is gone. A caster should have to CHOOSE when to cast. So, this should be put back into balance. Casters should fear running out of spell points, I do not see that being the case at the moment. And for spell like abilities that do not use spell power, they should be balanced down in power to level below melee DPS.

    5 Kiting, Range characters kite, we all know it, we do it because it works. I propose that all ranged attacks that are effected by ranged power have a 25% miss chance if the character is moving. I know some people will say they already have a -4 to hit when moving, well with all the changes to the game, that -4 is nothing. Also, all spells or spell like abilities have a + 25% spell failure chance while moving.

    6. Aggro. Well we all get this, when we play melee, we charge at the enemy, we are about to them, then a ranged character shoots one of them, and they all run at the ranged character, we are then running back after the mobs as they chase the ranged character that then starts kitting the mobs around, and we end up not getting one hit in to get the aggro from the ranged character. Well I would like to see that all mobs that melee attacks are their main attack have increased aggro on melee characters, even before the first attack is made. I don't know how this would work, maybe have some way to flag a character as melee DPS, then have an increase of aggro giving to them for melee mobs that lasts for an amount of seconds, even if they get attacked by a ranged player. Also maybe have ranged mobs more likely to attack ranged players.

    7. Quests. We all know that newer quests are tougher then older quests, I would like to see a pass to balance this out, most quest of the same level should be that same toughness.

    8. When balancing playstyles and classes, more power and abilities should be added to the 18th and 20th level abilities, this way it mostly will only effect that class. If a class is lacking just add + 5 MP (or such) to the level 20 abilities.

    9. Balance down. When balancing power and classes and such, please balance down, not up. Thanks
    1.) It may divide the player base, but players play what they want.
    2.) Nope. Past lives are not a necessity. With the right gear, comes the right places. For Argonnessen players, Zantettsuken is a first lifer barbarian with like 5 epic past lives (before he got these lives) this player was running R5 solo at endgame cap. It's not about the lives that make it a creep, it's about the gear and how you play your character. He makes elitists look like trash.
    3.) I mean, sure. I'm not arguing.
    4.) Not true. Look at Favored Soul. You can get 12,000 with LGS and such. This is balanced because of the amount of farming you have to do in LGS.
    5.) I'd kite everything, especially that new f~~~~~~ reaper.
    6.) No
    7.) This is meant balanced for a reason because the new gear is better than in other quests.
    8.) I don't think so.
    9.) That's not how SSG works. They give things a power creep and forget about it.
    Wow! A very balanced game!
    I love this game! Let me play with my friends!
    *solos R5 CoS with Inquistive*
    oh wait.

  3. #3
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    I like how you start off decrying power creep and then call for rampant massive power creep

    1. No, and they should get rid of all the Reaper bonuses that leak out of Reaper already. Reaper is supposed to be a standalone "extra" mode. You run Reaper because you want to run Reaper, you want the challenge - you dont grind Reaper because its another layer of bonuses. IMO it should be reduced down to Elite base XP and first-time bonus XP, and maybe like 1 or 2% extra XP per Skull, that's it. The risk:reward paradigm should stop at Elite - the risk should BE the reward for Reaper.

    2. Most of them are tiny incremental bonuses to secondary stats. Most builds will not even get use out of a plurality of the PLs available. Like the AC you mentioned is only useful to a dedicated AC tank, or very early in Heroic.

    3. Yes, we all know, melee have to "do more". That doesnt mean they deserve higher DPS. There are better ways to differentiate melee from ranged. Survivability is one - ranged may start off safer, but its not like kiting is a 100% guarantee that you will never be hit, and ranged are squishier. Melee also have far more options for managing a fight beyond just "kill it to death" too. There are no tactical feats for ranged, and few ranged CC attacks. Things like EDF disallow ranged. There may be some tweaking needed to better expand melee's non-damage options, but you can do that without imposing an arbitrary ceiling on ranged DPS.

    4. No. Casters have to devote all their opportunity cost into casting, in order to achieve that high degree of efficacy you're talking about. If they couldn't use their spells 100% of the time, what else are they supposed to do? If you expect them all to start meleeing, they're going to be wholly ineffective because they've devoted no opportunity cost towards improving their melee. You're trying to impose that arbitrary "melee should be top DPS, just because" standard again. Melee are already top tier TTL, pound for pound - so if anything melee should be the lowest DPS.

    5. Melee kite and attack while moving, too, and can use it to minimize incoming damage and maximize their AOEs just like ranged. So impose the same 20% miss chance on every character unless they have Shot on the Run/Spring Attack feats...it'd just be a universal nerf, so no point in doing it and making everyone frustrated. 20% spell failure while moving...also no. They already pay spell points, regardless of whether the spell works or not. And they already suffer a movement penalty while casting, which makes kiting less effective.

    6. There have been lots of huge buffs to aggro generation implemented recently. Use them. Or just wait by your ranged party mates and let them bring the mobs to you. You cant expect the monsters to just run up and throw themselves on your swords just to make it easier to kill them. Plus there are lots of sneak-based melee builds that would get decimated if mobs auto-aggro melee.

    7. Older, easier quests are necessary for newer players that arent geared up enough for the tougher new quests. Its a three dimensional progression: quests get harder as you level up, they get harder with higher difficulty, and they get harder as you progress towards newer ones. That gives players options within any level bracket to optimize difficulty and reward for their current level of power.

    8. Core 5s and Capstones are already pretty good for most trees that have been balanced somewhat recently. There are older trees that do need a pass (such as KotC, coming soon), but generally the balance point seems to be good, and not favoring either multiclass or pure class builds too heavily.

    9. They do balance down, when its warranted. But keep in mind how complicated player stats are at this point - ALLLLL the different channels of bonuses, plus every possible permutation of class levels and races. Monsters are much simpler. Its much more straightforward to just tweak the monsters to match the players, than try to pull the players down to match the monsters.

  4. #4
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tianie View Post

    5 Kiting, Range characters kite, we all know it, we do it because it works. I propose that all ranged attacks that are effected by ranged power have a 25% miss chance if the character is moving. I know some people will say they already have a -4 to hit when moving, well with all the changes to the game, that -4 is nothing. Also, all spells or spell like abilities have a + 25% spell failure chance while moving.
    One of the reasons many play this game is because of the physics and the motion based combat. Once that is gone, the attrition will increase, as this game will have lost one of the main things that separates it from many other games.

    There are also feats for shooting on the run and casting while moving. If those negate the penalties all you did was slightly increase the opportunity cost of playing the way we play now, something build enthusiasts will easily find a way to fit in.

  5. #5
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    One of the reasons many play this game is because of the physics and the motion based combat. Once that is gone, the attrition will increase, as this game will have lost one of the main things that separates it from many other games.
    I super agree
    Without new players DDO will go the way of the dodo.
    r10 @ 30 stuff, Sorc Build Guide, Lagwipe Log, Ghallanda

  6. #6
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tianie View Post
    1. Reaper. I think there is too much power creep in reaper. And that Most of the benefits of reaper are used ONLY in reaper, it divides the player base.
    To change this I propose this. ....
    The player base would still be divided because you cant get Reaper points out side reaper and some players would not play outside reaper because they wouldn't be getting reaper points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tianie View Post
    2. Past Lives. I LOVE past lives, I'm at 103 past lives right now. But I think maybe they should be rebalanced. Though most past lives are defense in nature, they are still power creep. Take Epic Martial past life feats. Passive Bonus: +2 AC per stack of this Past Life and +1 AC per ten character levels. Drop that to Passive Bonus: +1 AC per stack of this Past Life and +1 AC per ten character levels. And you decrease AC by 12 for someone that has all 12 Martial past life feats. I just think that maybe a rebalancing of them, might be good.
    The game is so strongly oriented around past life grind that nerfing them can't be a good idea, I have no clue what would happen but I just can't not see a situation without a lot of rage quitting ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tianie View Post

    3,4,5. Ranged vs Melee (RP vs MP), (SP vs MP), Kiting
    I think think this is a much more complicated thing than you think it is, probably more complicated than I think it is. None of your suggestions actually create a situation where both styles are fun, playable, and enjoyable. Taking forever to kill things sucks (how it used to before for ranged and what most solutions that just nerf ranged DPS lead to), Running out of SP sucks, not having a viable way to solo sucks ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tianie View Post
    8. When balancing playstyles and classes, more power and abilities should be added to the 18th and 20th level abilities, this way it mostly will only effect that class. If a class is lacking just add + 5 MP (or such) to the level 20 abilities.
    Probably your worst suggestion (IMO sorry) this just forces people to stay pure class. IMO multiclassing and build customization is the best part of this game anything that impedes that or promotes a specific path is detrimental to the game IMO.

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