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Thread: Irony is.....

  1. #41
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emerge2012 View Post
    This is what I've been waiting to see. When the game's better players finally give in and start perfecting that broken tree and realize it's better than the dogs and everything else.

    Agreed though, the game is in it's most dumbed down state it's ever been in. Auto attack Inq and one key casters.
    EXCUSE ME. It's TWO key casters.

    Delayed Blast Fireball followed up with Meteor Swarm. That's twice as many spells that they have to cast as you're giving them credit for...
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  2. #42
    Community Member Karthunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkwier View Post
    See here's the thing...

    Melee have always accepted the trade off that they get the opportunity to do more dps than ranged or casters for the trouble of getting repeatedly hit in the face. The reverse made sense for ranged in that not getting hit in the face meant less dps.

    When that trade off makes no sense any more, and you can do more dps without getting hit in the face then melee makes no sense.

    In that context the game is badly put out of balance. This is fundamentally why folks get upset when that balance is borked, and also fundamentally why it is not the normal game state.

    What the devs have done with inq, spell damage buffs, and nerfs to melee defence like meld, is effectively make a whole playstyle obsolete.

    After all, if you can reach for a pair of six-shooters or machine pistols, why on earth would you look to grab a sword instead?

    These changes are a really stupid development and need fixed. No ifs, no buts. Because right now, melee is flavour, and the game balance is broken badly.
    Do you have a quote from a Dev saying that melee are suppose to do more damage than casters and ranged?

  3. #43
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Irony is like … Goldy and Bronzey…
    Only made of Iron.
    *waits for pats on head*
    kruemeli of Orien - Leader of the "Merry" Hobbits https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...20#post5002220
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  4. #44
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karthunk View Post
    Do you have a quote from a Dev saying that melee are suppose to do more damage than casters and ranged?
    If Melee aren't supposed to do more damage than casters and ranged, then something else needs to be changed in melee to make it substantially more survivable. Because melee gets hit a LOT more often than characters that attack from a distance because melee isn't attacking from a distance.

    So if the game is going to have any amount of balance, the melee builds need something to make up for getting hit more often. Either a greater defensive profile than builds that attack from range (this is what most MMOs do) or a greater DPS profile than builds that attack from range (which DDO used to do, but is not currently doing).
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  5. #45
    Community Member Karthunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    If Melee aren't supposed to do more damage than casters and ranged, then something else needs to be changed in melee to make it substantially more survivable. Because melee gets hit a LOT more often than characters that attack from a distance because melee isn't attacking from a distance.

    So if the game is going to have any amount of balance, the melee builds need something to make up for getting hit more often. Either a greater defensive profile than builds that attack from range (this is what most MMOs do) or a greater DPS profile than builds that attack from range (which DDO used to do, but is not currently doing).

    I agree 100% with melee having more survivability. The only place I see melee struggle is reaper, I would suggest removing the healing debuff for melee and additional defense stats for weapons in the off hand and two handed weapons.

  6. #46
    Community Member Hawkwier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karthunk View Post
    Do you have a quote from a Dev saying that melee are suppose to do more damage than casters and ranged?
    No. Why do you think I would even need one to express my reasoned perspective on the matter?

    Particularly given the low opinion I hold of devs on this matter currently!

    If that were the rules - and just to be clear for you, it's not - it would be a pretty sparsely populated forum!

  7. #47
    Community Member C-Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knobull View Post
    Actually it is...
    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Captain Irony will teach you all!
    Awesome!

    So, for some, an incongruity (and hence an irony) may stem from an expectation of perfect game balance? I simply don't share that expectation. Not in a bad, cynical way - diff builds are going to have diff strengths, including dps, and b/c a new tree has not been vetted yet. And also b/c a "premium" tree will probably, for a variety of understandable reasons, tend to be stronger than an older, class-based tree. And Devs are human, and this is not a perfect world.

    I find no incongruity, hence no irony for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    dead horse memes only apply if its no longer a problem
    Sez who?

    There are 2 ways to interpret at that metephor.

    One is that the action of beating, altho' (perhaps) productive originally, is now pointless. Here, that arguing/debating will not produce any results. (Which would also be the case if the problem had been solved, but that is not the "only" case.)

    The other is that the "horse" in that metaphor is the argument/debate itself, not the problem/issue being argued about/debated over. The implication is that the argument/debate has been beaten to death, not that the problem has been resolved by "killing" anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karthunk View Post
    Do you have a quote from a Dev saying that melee are suppose to do more damage than casters and ranged?
    Doubtful - but they did in tabletop D&D (at least in earlier editions). That was the "balance", that being able to do damage at range meant "less damage/DPS".

    For whatever reasons, those expectations didn't translate to DDO - or, if they ever did initially, they were "balanced out" long ago.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dog View Post
    Awesome!

    So, for some, an incongruity (and hence an irony) may stem from an expectation of perfect game balance? I simply don't share that expectation.
    Nobody expects perfect balance. Nobody expects decent balance to get thrown out the window either.

    When was the last time overall game balance was this bad?

  9. #49
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dog View Post
    How is this "ironic"?

    Annoying, if you say so - possibly, arguably, less than sensible, but, sorry, not "ironic".
    Its ironic to nerf thing-A in the name of balance then release the next thing-B at the same power level the pre-nerf thing-A was in.

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dog View Post
    Awesome!

    So, for some, an incongruity (and hence an irony) may stem from an expectation of perfect game balance? I simply don't share that expectation. Not in a bad, cynical way - diff builds are going to have diff strengths, including dps, and b/c a new tree has not been vetted yet. And also b/c a "premium" tree will probably, for a variety of understandable reasons, tend to be stronger than an older, class-based tree. And Devs are human, and this is not a perfect world.

    I find no incongruity, hence no irony for me.
    No one is saying anything about perfect balance here, but in the example, thing-B should have been released at the post-nerf power level of thing-A if any pretense of having any balance at all whatsoever is to be believeable.

    To nerf thing-A then release thing-B at the pre-nerf power level of thing-A, all the while couching this attempt at being slick is terms of balancing the game is indeed ironic.

    I mean, we know why they do it, as this new thing isnt going to sell itself, but couching the nerf in terms of game balance is ironic, when they turn around and sell you desirable imbalance (the ability to be OP again) in the next patch.

    And also b/c a "premium" tree will probably, for a variety of understandable reasons, tend to be stronger than an older, class-based tree.
    Naaa - no variety of reasons here, just one simple reason. They can re-sell you back the the gap in character power they just nerfed out of the game. Anything else are just the terms this gets couched in, which we see right through.

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dog View Post

    Doubtful - but they did in tabletop D&D (at least in earlier editions). That was the "balance", that being able to do damage at range meant "less damage/DPS".

    For whatever reasons, those expectations didn't translate to DDO - or, if they ever did initially, they were "balanced out" long ago.
    Ranged DPS was not less in tabletop - even in the earlier editions. As a DM Ive seen players piece together as many munchkin AD&D 1E and 2E builds for range as for melee, and in 3.5 with prestige builds there are a ton of combinations, especially with the class/build cap removed, for both (no less for ranged) to be pretty much demi gods at around the same character level. They did try to tone this down in 5E but of course, people figured out how to munchkin that too.

    Its actually more accurate to say casters stop needing everyone else at some point. 2E actually balanced this the best, but it was gotten rid of due to complaining combat rounds took too long counting out segments.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-17-2019 at 01:42 PM.

  10. #50
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No one is saying anything about perfect balance here, but in the example, thing-B should have been released at the post-nerf power level of thing-A if any pretense of having any balance at all whatsoever is to be believeable.

    To nerf thing-A then release thing-B at the pre-nerf power level of thing-A, all the while couching this attempt at being slick is terms of balancing the game is indeed ironic.

    I mean, we know why they do it, as this new thing isnt going to sell itself, but couching the nerf in terms of game balance is ironic, when they turn around and sell you desirable imbalance (the ability to be OP again) in the next patch.
    I'm confused by this because Inquisitive was released several months before the Wolf nerf.
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  11. #51
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I'm confused by this because Inquisitive was released several months before the Wolf nerf.
    The content still stands, regardless of order of release.

    Its just as ironic to nerf wolf in that context claiming game balance after releasing something at pre-nerf wolf power (and less risky play style too boot) - then leaving it alone.

    This new thing isnt going to sell itself.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-17-2019 at 01:52 PM.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karthunk View Post
    More crying about something that has zero impact on anyone else. Don't group with crossbow users if you don't like them.
    This. The old adage of don't worry about what other people are doing just deal with your own stuff . Since I've ran twoinquisitive lives I've had more people asked me to join the group and a few people sad when I had to go and log off. And my build is far from top DPS design and has very little utility other than shooting stuff, raising people with a Ring of the ancestors and running stones to the shrines. Wearing heavy armor and also spending resources on defense to keep me alive.

    I am enjoying inquisitor a lot I think people just need to focus on their own thing instead of what the neighbors are doing.

    Everyone is perfectly welcome to build an inquisitor and try it out you might even like it. with it being a universal tree it works well with a variety of classes, possibly even your favorite class too.

  13. #53
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paladin_of_Power View Post
    This. The old adage of don't worry about what other people are doing just deal with your own stuff . Since I've ran twoinquisitive lives I've had more people asked me to join the group and a few people sad when I had to go and log off. And my build is far from top DPS design and has very little utility other than shooting stuff, raising people with a Ring of the ancestors and running stones to the shrines. Wearing heavy armor and also spending resources on defense to keep me alive.

    I am enjoying inquisitor a lot I think people just need to focus on their own thing instead of what the neighbors are doing.

    Everyone is perfectly welcome to build an inquisitor and try it out you might even like it. with it being a universal tree it works well with a variety of classes, possibly even your favorite class too.
    You praised how the class made other people like you for being powerful, then simultaneously criticized other people for disliking that it made you powerful.

    I'm all for power fantasy, but I hope you see the double standard of what I underlined. You are having your fun via an effect on others and then telling others that they shouldn't mind the effect you have on them. This is a community game, not a solo game. You get that. That's why you should advocate balance---otherwise its just about your own power fantasy. The munchkin at the table ruins the game.
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  14. #54
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    You praised how the class made other people like you for being powerful, then simultaneously criticized other people for disliking that it made you powerful.

    I'm all for power fantasy, but I hope you see the double standard of what I underlined. You are having your fun via an effect on others and then telling others that they shouldn't mind the effect you have on them. This is a community game, not a solo game. You get that. That's why you should advocate balance---otherwise its just about your own power fantasy. The munchkin at the table ruins the game.
    I have good news: Even without INQ, the Xbow meta in heroics is strong.

    It is quite obviously a design problem. Let s make reapers hit hard, but specially in melee range. Then, when they attempt to melee them, let s hit them with a slow effect. Perhaps we can sprinkle some fort bypass or nasty dot champions in the mix.

    Another cool design choice: slow traps and boom spiders. When does poor fellows move in melee range, let s hot then with a chewing gum trap so that they enjoy the snared feeling. Or maybe a 1 shot kill slowly crawling but guided missile slider. That way they ll either feel like that mob in Austin powers, or have to move out of range and co tribute nothing. Either way they ll have time to reflect on life choices, wise up, and roll what we want then to roll; I.e the new store goodie.

    I can almost hear the laughs when they see threads like this. Look at them whine trolololol.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karthunk View Post
    More crying about something that has zero impact on anyone else.
    If they didn't feel it had impact on them, what's your theory on why they would bother crying about it? I'm pretty sure they think there actually is an impact on them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
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  16. #56
    Community Member kelavas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malusny View Post
    Just to substantiate my previous reply (in which I wrote that you haven't done your homework on how OP inquisitive is right now),

    just watch this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNaRU0GiMR0
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF-KiReGJPo
    without Fury of the Wild (BEFORE NERF)
    Wow! A very balanced game!
    I love this game! Let me play with my friends!
    *solos R5 CoS with Inquistive*
    oh wait.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karthunk View Post
    ...additional defense stats for weapons in the off hand and two handed weapons.
    Derailing the topic a bit, I think this is something the Devs should look at towards "fixing" THF and to a lesser extent TWF. For really important reasons, I think the Devs don't want to increase the DPS of melee builds too much because it's a never ending cycle as the meta switches over to melee then the casters and ranged want more damage. As a proposed starting point and without adding the need for new feats / stances..

    Two-Handed Fighting: All the current benefits + "when fighting with a two-handed weapon, PRR/MRR is multiplied by 1.1"
    iTHF: All the current benefits + "when fighting with a two-handed weapon, PRR/MRR is multiplied by 1.25"
    gTHF: All the current benefits + "when fighting with a two-handed weapon, PRR/MRR is multiplied by 1.5"
    pTHF: All the current benefits + "when fighting with a two-handed weapon, PRR/MRR is multiplied by 1.75"

    Two-Weapon Fighting: All the current benefits + "when fighting with two weapons, PRR/MRR is multiplied by 1.05"
    iTWF: All the current benefits + "when fighting with two weapons, PRR/MRR is multiplied by 1.1"
    gTWF: All the current benefits + "when fighting with two weapons, PRR/MRR is multiplied by 1.15"
    pTWF: All the current benefits + "when fighting with two weapons, PRR/MRR is multiplied by 1.2"

    Shield Mastery: All the current benefits + "when fighting with weapon and shield, PRR/MRR is multiplied by 1.3"
    Imp. Shield Mastery: : All the current benefits + "when fighting with weapon and shield, PRR/MRR is multiplied by 1.75"
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  18. #58
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karthunk View Post
    More crying about something that has zero impact on anyone else. Don't group with crossbow users if you don't like them.
    We see this in most threads where something is labeled OP, in lieu of discussing the merits and counterpoints of the claim. Its right up there with players who dont favor the power creep approach fixing the issue by not wearing the new gear and not getting the new progression.

    That might work when your market audience is NOT laden with min maxers, like in a game for casual story mode players and fashion/cosmetics folks. Telling a bunch of min maxers to not play the best builds, not optimize their characters, and not invite the best builds to their groups is out of touch.

  19. #59
    Community Member Yamani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    This is a community game, not a solo game. Y
    If its a community game then why don't people get out of their channels/discords and group more with others? Inquisitive brought those other players somewhat up to par with power gamers so why not help them get into end game/high reaper?

  20. #60
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamani View Post
    If its a community game then why don't people get out of their channels/discords and group more with others? Inquisitive brought those other players somewhat up to par with power gamers so why not help them get into end game/high reaper?
    Lmao.

    You realize that those people arguing that its not stupid powerful probably don't know how to roll them correctly?

    Which then brings that your point is kinda meaningless because its not "herp-a-derp, the bads are now able to be as good as the elite", its more like, "the bads are still bad but the underlying game just got broken because everyone is an inquisitive now"

    Seriously. the good players are rolling inquisitives just like the bad players for the same reason. And they're miles better at it than the bad players. It's not helping them into high skull reaper groups. Its just breaking the game balance.
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

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