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  1. #1
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    SirValentine's Avatar
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    Default Swashbuckler and power levels

    In a separate thread about what is "under-powered", I happened across this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    What: The Swashbuckler Tree
    Why: Many enhancements have outdated costs and/or effects compared to what the current enhancement trees get.
    Suggestions: Please do a thorough review and update of the tree, like was done for Warchanters. Some suggestions or thoughts are as follows.
    Now, it seems to be logically impossible for Swashbuckler to be under-powered, since the devs defined it as the standard for power level.

    Other things might be over-powered, but unless the devs change their explicitly-stated goals, Swashbuckler in particular is at exactly the right power level, per dev intent.

    Edit: found the relevant dev post, from Severlin in October 2015:

    Quote Originally Posted by Severlin View Post
    We decided that other than some bugs revolving around Single Weapon Fighting that Swashbuckler would be the default level of power we would strive for with our passes.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 09-13-2019 at 06:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  2. #2
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    goals might have evolved, just like the game

  3. #3
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    Cool

    Tautology, baby!
    Please consider the environment before printing this post

  4. #4
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Yup, I remember when Severlin wrote that. Things may have veered a little bit from that plan...
    The best part of the 10th Anniversary of DDO...the description on the Oatmeal Raisin Kookie,
    "From a distance you thought this was a chocolate chip kookie. Now you're sad."

  5. #5
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    It just isn't true anymore. I don't see any benchmark being used and, after the last pass to some casters and INQ, I have little faith that the devs intent to produce a balanced game.

  6. #6
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    It just isn't true anymore. I don't see any benchmark being used and, after the last pass to some casters and INQ, I have little faith that the devs intent to produce a balanced game.
    maybe swashbuckling inquisitives are the new benchmark

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    maybe swashbuckling inquisitives are the new benchmark
    Which is funny because inqui swashes are the only intended inqui style that doesn't actually work well

  8. #8
    The Hatchery Cernunan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Which is funny because inqui swashes are the only intended inqui style that doesn't actually work well
    Then you are doing it wrong
    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    While it's not difficult to figure out, it's a mindless, stupid and eye-bleeding grind. It's not too hard to figure out that is not what this game needs right now. 2-3 million karma ok, there's some pain for your gain. But really, the EPL's are not worth the pain of 6 million XP in off destinies/sphere's.
    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Profit quantity has been prioritized above product quality.

  9. #9
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    My own Swashbuckler is at level 4 now - first life - and I can't see much overpowering. On the other hand, I have nothing to compare that against, though.
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tapper this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this tale."
    English is not my first language - misinterpretations galore !

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunan View Post
    Then you are doing it wrong
    It doesn't matter how you do it - there just isn't any synergy there

    Swash offers almost nothing to inqui build...no crit bonus, almost all its enhancements are tied to swf or melee (crucially, no dex to dmg), or don't require swashing. About all that's really synergistic are the cores, but those are locked behind bard level and swash ap. And you have to give up a doublestrike bonus to enable it.

    Compare that to fvs builds that can utilize divine inqui, there's much more synergy there with war soul tree and native wis to dmg. Or even ek pm inqui builds that could utilize the spell power option, though ds probably still better.

  11. #11
    The Hatchery Cernunan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    It doesn't matter how you do it - there just isn't any synergy there

    Swash offers almost nothing to inqui build...no crit bonus, almost all its enhancements are tied to swf or melee (crucially, no dex to dmg), or don't require swashing. About all that's really synergistic are the cores, but those are locked behind bard level and swash ap. And you have to give up a doublestrike bonus to enable it.

    Compare that to fvs builds that can utilize divine inqui, there's much more synergy there with war soul tree and native wis to dmg. Or even ek pm inqui builds that could utilize the spell power option, though ds probably still better.
    You already get crit buffs from the main tree. Points in SW give you 10% DS, +6 dg, bard speed for kiting, Imp Destruction, and a strike that is almost always an alpha crit hit, Arrow Deflection, and those are just the bare min you get.
    Edit: I forgot to include the buffs from the cores(I take the first 3), giving an additional +2 dg, +3 dodge as well, though I don't build for dodge usually on my inquis
    I agree FVS and EK/PM are aslo nice builds with Inq, they are just not the only good builds, as bards get added benefits from base class as well, skill bonus and dg bonuses, throw in some WC tree for even more dg bonuses, self healing displace, fom, it's only really missing energy resists free cast
    Last edited by Cernunan; 09-14-2019 at 03:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    While it's not difficult to figure out, it's a mindless, stupid and eye-bleeding grind. It's not too hard to figure out that is not what this game needs right now. 2-3 million karma ok, there's some pain for your gain. But really, the EPL's are not worth the pain of 6 million XP in off destinies/sphere's.
    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Profit quantity has been prioritized above product quality.

  12. #12
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alrik_Fassbauer View Post
    My own Swashbuckler is at level 4 now - first life - and I can't see much overpowering. On the other hand, I have nothing to compare that against, though.
    Yeah, when Swash was first introduced it was (very) powerful. It made bards worth playing once again. Sevelin then went on to say that was the standard that all future passes would be compared to. The fact that you don't see the power shows how much power creep has been introduced in the last few years. In a way, bards are literally where they were prior to the pass all those years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunan View Post
    You already get crit buffs from the main tree. Points in SW give you 10% DS, +6 dg, bard speed for kiting, Imp Destruction, and a strike that is almost always an alpha crit hit, Arrow Deflection, and those are just the bare min you get.
    Edit: I forgot to include the buffs from the cores(I take the first 3), giving an additional +2 dg, +3 dodge as well, though I don't build for dodge usually on my inquis
    I agree FVS and EK/PM are aslo nice builds with Inq, they are just not the only good builds, as bards get added benefits from base class as well, skill bonus and dg bonuses, throw in some WC tree for even more dg bonuses, self healing displace, fom, it's only really missing energy resists free cast
    That's what I'm saying - the Swash option in Inqui doesnt really offer you that much more. Go to https://ddowiki.com/page/Swashbuckler_enhancements and search for "while swashbuckling" and see what it actually gives you:

    - A smattering of DS and damage from the cores. Evasion at cap, but Uncanny Dodge and Slippery Mind are redundant with Inqui
    - Sonic guard
    - KD guard
    - Dashing Scoundrel? Does it count as "nothing in off hand"?
    - Sonic on Crit doesnt work since its Finessable or Thrown only (as though they somehow knew it would be awesome with Inqui lol)
    - Destruction on hit, but Inqui already has a lot of Fort Bypass baked in
    - You arent going to take T5 in Swash

    Of those, the only really notable bonuses are Dashing Scoundrel if it works, and the little bit of DS in the cores. So you're basically spending 27 AP (and whatever else you could get with it) to go from 5% DS to 12%.

    You can make a Bard Inqui, absolutely, and benefit from the runspeed, from WC enhancements, the Dodge/MDB from Swash cores (which doesnt require Swashbuckling), from native bard heals and buffs, etc. Just there's very little point in swashing with inqui, was my point - making Dashing Inquisition rather pointless.

    Also right now Ratcatcher is king so it doesnt matter, but if they ever release a Heavy Xbow that eclipses it, that'll lock Swash Inquis out since they can only use Light.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    That's what I'm saying - the Swash option in Inqui doesnt really offer you that much more. Go to https://ddowiki.com/page/Swashbuckler_enhancements and search for "while swashbuckling" and see what it actually gives you:

    - A smattering of DS and damage from the cores. Evasion at cap, but Uncanny Dodge and Slippery Mind are redundant with Inqui
    - Sonic guard
    - KD guard
    - Dashing Scoundrel? Does it count as "nothing in off hand"?
    - Sonic on Crit doesnt work since its Finessable or Thrown only (as though they somehow knew it would be awesome with Inqui lol)
    - Destruction on hit, but Inqui already has a lot of Fort Bypass baked in
    - You arent going to take T5 in Swash

    Of those, the only really notable bonuses are Dashing Scoundrel if it works, and the little bit of DS in the cores. So you're basically spending 27 AP (and whatever else you could get with it) to go from 5% DS to 12%.

    You can make a Bard Inqui, absolutely, and benefit from the runspeed, from WC enhancements, the Dodge/MDB from Swash cores (which doesnt require Swashbuckling), from native bard heals and buffs, etc. Just there's very little point in swashing with inqui, was my point - making Dashing Inquisition rather pointless.

    Also right now Ratcatcher is king so it doesnt matter, but if they ever release a Heavy Xbow that eclipses it, that'll lock Swash Inquis out since they can only use Light.
    Resonant Arms works. Dashing scoundrel works. Blow by Blow comes in real handy. Doubleshot clicky is nice. 17-19 ap. for a three bard level investment.
    Last edited by Mandelia; 09-14-2019 at 11:09 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandelia View Post
    Resonant Arms works. Dashing scoundrel works. Blow by Blow comes in real handy. Doubleshot clicky is nice. 17-19 ap. for a three bard level investment.
    OK well if Resonant Arms works, that's at least two meaningful things you get from Swash.

    Blow by Blow and DS clicky are not Swash dependent. You can use them even without Swash being active.

  16. #16
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    The only negative I've found so far is that there is no "item defense". I don't want my items to be damaged all of the time.
    Because of that, I made one exception and took 1 level of Sorceror, just to get "item defense" from the Eldritch Knight Tree.

    Because of that i came to think that all melee characters / trees would should have "item defense".


    (My level 4 Swashbuckler Bard died 3 or 4 times yesterdsay while doing Kobold Assault on elite ... and that with Eleri and a Favoured Sould hireling ... Who died 2 times as well ...)
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tapper this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this tale."
    English is not my first language - misinterpretations galore !

  17. #17
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alrik_Fassbauer View Post
    (My level 4 Swashbuckler Bard died 3 or 4 times yesterdsay while doing Kobold Assault on elite ... and that with Eleri and a Favoured Sould hireling ... Who died 2 times as well ...)
    Ouch!
    Been awhile since I've seen that many deaths in KA.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Now, it seems to be logically impossible for Swashbuckler to be under-powered, since the devs defined it as the standard for power level.
    ...
    Edit: found the relevant dev post, from Severlin in October 2015:
    Except of course they failed in every aspect of game balance in every class and enhancement upgrade since then, up to and including Inquisitor.

    So, time to roll the snowball again: It's what they do.

    Power creep is the new normal: it sells classes and enhancement trees. The only question is how far and how fast?

  19. #19
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    Ouch!
    Been awhile since I've seen that many deaths in KA.
    Yes, I always thought that I was doing something wrong - this is my very first Bard. I'm also running out of spell points fairly quickly, and I think / guess most deaths came from those elites which dropped mysterious remnants, then.

    I definitively need to optimize something there.
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tapper this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this tale."
    English is not my first language - misinterpretations galore !

  20. #20
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    The problem is they let monk stick builds get wildly out of hand and it has been a mess of rebalancing ever since.

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