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  1. #81
    Community Member Indubitably's Avatar
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    Why are melee always the loudest?

    Caster damage was worthless for a vastly long time, there wasn't anywhere near so much complaining. I dunno about "which is better" and TBH I dont care, I dont think many people care... everything is so out of whack anyways and everyone is OP.
    Its just a concern if your so grossly overpowered that it feels inhibitive playing another playstyle... and I don't think thats the situation, not by a long shot.

    There are Spell Point issues for people that don't buy a crazy amount of SP pots,
    There are DC issues for people that aren't pimped out and have all the past lives,
    There are damage issues for bosses and immunity problems for many casters (non pure sorc, pre lvl20 sorc, non pm wizards, warlock, any divine, etc) and when you have a breaker, it may be limited.

    The people that DONT have this problem are the SAME people that would be steamrolling the content no matter what build they chose, they are meta gamers and are simply picking the most efficient for the job they are doing at the time.... fix casters and they will all move onto the next best META thing (which i am sure you would consider balanced if it was melee????)

    Melee get more defense in general, more health and survival, better endurance... they never hit walls like some solo casters do, especially with un CC'able stuff or not enough shrines. If this is not enough... if you wanna bring up R10 legendary reapers 1 shotting everyone as an example for everything... go roll a caster?
    Of Course I can CC - Death is a form of CC.
    My other character is a triple everything completionist.

  2. #82
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    There's a difference imo. Certain builds have more luxury of going less defense and more offense either through awful gear tetris, or enhancements/playtype that can enable it. My rogue for example goes more offense gear set because of the amount of defense clickies that he gets passively through EDs/granted feats (Thick Skin, Hood, Meld, Uncanny Dodge).

    However the OP is/was talking about a blaster caster on R10 using energy burst. Funnily enough I ran the new chain r10 with 3 sorcs (1 DC, two blasters) just the other day. Of the two blasters, one was as the OP describes as The META that players are using, and it's dumb to take things like meld or spell absorb (little bit of paraphrasing. The other (Sam) was using deflect arrows meld, spell absorb and was far far superior in efficiency, and usefulness. Did both of them die? Yes. But one was dead at the start of every other encounter, while Sam carried the group for the most part in DPS terms.

    Its not unreasonable to expect deaths in R8+, after all there's lots of danger. It is however, foolish to simply ignore any kind of defense and act like you're OP AF because you do X amount, but you die in 2/3rd the engagements. Unless you're willing to cake everytime you die, defenses still matter. The OP's claim that for a blaster sorc defenses are absolutely pointless simply doesn't pass the B.S. test.

    FWIW my only character on HC is currently level 9, and I have died a grand total of 0 deaths on HC with something like 12k rxp (melee barb). I kinda stopped playing on it because i felt like the time investment for a first life character that i don't have too much investment in wasn't worth the trouble. Glad others enjoy it though.
    You have taken the time to post, but no to read. OP says this, OP says that. Except that OP said none of those things.

    You may play the game in 10 skulls, great. But the vast majority of the groups do not. Specially in Sharn; if anything because until now most people did not have the xpac and hence the time to farm the gear required to make the new Uber DCs.

    In lower skulls, casters are vaporizing content. I know because I have done it, I have seen others do it, and I have provided video evidence. The same players on a melee toon cannot do the same, at all. I know because of both personal experience, playing with others, and video evidence.

    This is what OP says, until some people came to derail with some discussion over whether it is possible to one shot a room in r10. Well, it is possible to push e burst very high, it might not be an optimal build decision, but this is not what the thread is about.

    You will notice how I spent some time talking about the fact that most times s are tops mid skulls, and how at that level currently the meta casters are trivializing content. Which is not an opinion, it is a well documented fact.

    Is everything clear now?

  3. #83
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zretch View Post
    Na, you haven't provided evidence. You provided point in time screenshots from a master builder (Tronko) who makes simply ferocious toons. He has access to gear combinations, raid gear, greensteel gear, etc that the vast majority on the server will never have and a reaper point count that most will also never have.

    All you've done is stubbornly missed the point. The point is, toons can be built to be better than yours are. It doesn't matter if you build melee toons or ranged toons or caster toons, SOMEONE will build something WAY better than what you're able to, and then you'll be right back here crying about how it's unfair and unfun and needs to be nerfed. The reason they can is some builds have access to AoE skills that hit as hard as their primary attacks, and people build to that strength.

    Read Tronko's (Gigla1's) post again. Notice that he even states in this post....He had fun. OMG, someone actually had fun in the game. Clearly they need to be nerfed so you can have fun.
    And stringing is also a master builder who optimized to the last bit? And the many players running low skulls and 1 shottubg packs with meteors are also the Uber masters? And the many people meta leveling on specs are too?

    I have provided evidence at the top and at the more common levels. You can lead a horse to the water, but.,.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    In lower skulls, casters are vaporizing content. I know because I have done it, I have seen others do it, and I have provided video evidence. The same players on a melee toon cannot do the same, at all. I know because of both personal experience, playing with others, and video evidence.?
    Melee players picked their power curve with Dire Charge and don't want even balance with casters.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 09-13-2019 at 03:57 AM.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    There's been a lot of back and forth in this thread, and I want to take an opportunity to address one specific thing. DCs

    There seems to be an assumption regarding DCs, and that is, the character is a full completionist.

    The devs have gone overboard with DC boosts and similar.

    Not every DC caster is a full completionist. I'd like to see what a 1st life toon can do now with the changes to Magister. How high can a 1st life go?
    Well, there is truth in this. That's why I said that it is probably best to go caster if you are a "veteran" player; i.e. someone with a significant amount of grind on their backpack. I don't know how you'd optimize it for a 1st life character.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avocado View Post
    Its a shame this thread has derailed so much. I do agree that sorc if in a very powerful spot atm. I ran one up recently and min-maxed (1 warlock past life only) the **** out of it, its basically hold monster, meteor and everything dies in anything below r3. r1 and ee everything is dead from one fireball. Is it too powerful, certainly, is it fun as all heck for the one person yes. Ill equate this to a post i made when warlock was in the same position and could 1 shot any heroic mob with 2 bursts. I wrote and angry post too, claiming that it was ruining my fun. Sorc is the new warlock.

    135 dc is not enough for no fail in almost all sharn content, its more like 145, which is possible. My dd cleric has about a 50% success rate in sharn on r5 with 133 necro dc. I didnt come to argue dcs tho, just pointing out my observations.

    Ill add my thoughts on no fail dcs too. Past lives for casters are way too powerful. +5 dcs if you have everything and more for like +8 evocation and enchant. +5 is a 25% increase in effectiveness. Thats not a small amount. People always telling me that pls dont matter, they sure as frick matter for a dc caster.

    Melee is no fun in sharn content so i gravitate towards my sorc. Fort dcs too high to assassinate, reaper/boss/mob fort too high to SA, not enough hp to take hits in higher reaper, un-evadable magic damage, AC getting pounded through the roof making accuracy items of the ut most importance, and very few ways to cc mobs.

    So then, how do they *balance* this? Im honestly not sure. Re-impose magic damage reduction in for mobs reaper to that prior to the last reaper changes?
    Precisely my experience.

    I have run my fair share of r10s since I came back (thanks folks for carrying! ). But I have to say that most runs I have done are at max r5, when it comes to Sharn specially. This is the realm in which you see those new casters reign supreme, and melee has a lot of issues (fort, grazing, proximity to the new reapers). But this is very relevant, since it is were in my experience the majority of the population is.

    The devs have the metrics, I hope they act on it. I have very little desire to log on my character right now, and I am not about to jump into whatever meta they want to push us on.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilga1 View Post
    Since I have been mentioned I would like to clarify a couple of points.

    First of all, I’m not a sorc expert…

    ....

    Is the dps sorc I’m playing a glass cannon toon? Maybe. I can count on a huge amount of PLs and reaper points, so I can get 3,5k hp with affirmation proc. PRR is decent but MRR capped at 70 sucks.

    In conclusion, my only goal was to point out the huge improvement in sorc dps between U41 nd U43.
    You sure are much more of an expert on sorcs than most people, certainly than me.

    Would you mind posting a rough breakdown of gear as well as AP and ED expenditures to give an estimate on how to reach 3.5 hp as well as good spell power/ crit dmg / crit chance and decent dc?

    I realise I wont be able to duplicate fully due to lack of past lives, reaper points and some harder to get raid items - but I curious even so and wouldnt mind duplicating some of the way. After that its down to skill, or lack of same in my case

    My alt does have some 20 PL and ~40 reaper points though - and is currently a lackluster dc tiefling sorc - so retooling should be within reason
    Last edited by mikarddo; 09-13-2019 at 07:02 AM.
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  8. #88
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    I haven’t read every post in this thread so forgive me if I’m repeating someone.

    Let’s set aside the way this game actually works for a second. Let’s pretend I’m a fighter, and you a sorc. We’re high level. You can call down fire from the heavens and set the room ablaze. I swing a pointy stick. I’ve gotten really good at it, but, alas, it is still a pointy stick. Don’t you think you, the sorc, should be more deadly than me at times? I do.

    But that doesn’t mean you don’t need me. Calling down fire from the heavens is, well, kind of exhausting. And assuming our quest involves more than one encounter, you will have to be careful not to wear yourself out before we reach our journeys end.

    Back to how the game actually works. There’s a blue bar there that represents your exhaustion. (I think it odd there is no fatigue mechanic at all for non casters but that’s a topic for another day). You have to manage that blue bar. That’s the balance bar that makes you need me.

    But wait! You’ve also learned a special spell that lets you call up a magic store from the heavens. You can buy stuff that replenishes your blue bar. So now how do we maintain a semblance of balance? Hmm, we can’t.

  9. #89
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNiCd View Post
    But wait! You’ve also learned a special spell that lets you call up a magic store from the heavens. You can buy stuff that replenishes your blue bar. So now how do we maintain a semblance of balance? Hmm, we can’t.
    No, blue bars are not a limitation for lowish skull (<r5) questing right now; this is even without store pots.

    I direct you to the video I linked in the OP where a player, with a suboptimal cap build, destroys everything in r1 Sharn and r4 RL. That's even without holding mobs, he just casually casts spells and everything dies.

    This is not superhuman Strimton, I can and have done the exact same thing in the exact same quest in a far less tanky sorc.

    At no point he was running out of SPs, and I think he didn't even bother to shrine.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    No, blue bars are not a limitation for lowish skull (<r5) questing right now; this is even without store pots.

    I direct you to the video I linked in the OP where a player, with a suboptimal cap build, destroys everything in r1 Sharn and r4 RL. That's even without holding mobs, he just casually casts spells and everything dies.

    This is not superhuman Strimton, I can and have done the exact same thing in the exact same quest in a far less tanky sorc.

    At no point he was running out of SPs, and I think he didn't even bother to shrine.
    Sure - not disputing that. Forgive me for being such an idealist here. I guess what I'm saying is that rather than adjusting caster DPS down to be on par with melee or ranged, it makes more logical sense to me to adjust spell cost of the big gun spells upward, or reduce the max blue bar capacity overall. Only that can't really work in DDO, unless we have some gentleman's agreement that we won't use the store.

    As another aside, my opinion is that the devs are trying to balance across way to many shades of power creep and difficulty levels. The top 10 difficulty levels get into a weird reverse "how much do we nerf characters" territory. It's not terribly surprising to me that things seem broken at various points.
    Last edited by SuperNiCd; 09-13-2019 at 08:52 AM.

  11. #91
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    There are very few casters that reach the performance of the linked build. Yet the nerfs being called for will affect the others more than the high end guy.

    you need 3x sorc past lives, 3x wiz past lives, Completionist, 3 Magister EDs, 2+ LGS gear, some other raid gear Farmed the hell out of slavers and some other good drops. Thats a ton of dedication. to make this build work like that.

    Not to mention 40+ reaper points + need to have burned enough blues to have all your augment slots and have the required augments.


    You go in there with a 1-4th lifer, 10-20Rpts, even with Epic completionist, with quest blues and try this ****. LMAO youre going to be a chewtoy.


    Thats a few years of gameplay for your average joe, a non-basement dweller. I am just fine with a guy with that much investment wrecking a room.
    Last edited by scut207; 09-13-2019 at 10:02 AM.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by scut207 View Post
    I am just fine with a guy with that much investment wrecking a room.
    Me too. But dumb af that only a couple styles are allowed to do it regardless of investment.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by scut207 View Post
    There are very few casters that reach the performance of the linked build. Yet the nerfs being called for will affect the others more than the high end guy.

    you need 3x sorc past lives, 3x wiz past lives, Completionist, 3 Magister EDs, 2+ LGS gear, some other raid gear Farmed the hell out of slavers and some other good drops. Thats a ton of dedication. to make this build work like that.

    Not to mention 40+ reaper points + need to have burned enough blues to have all your augment slots and have the required augments.


    You go in there with a 1-4th lifer, 10-20Rpts, even with Epic completionist, with quest blues and try this ****. LMAO youre going to be a chewtoy.


    Thats a few years of gameplay for your average joe, a non-basement dweller. I am just fine with a guy with that much investment wrecking a room.
    On the other hand, a first life sorc with pickup gear (quest rewards) will out perform any quadrupel-life melee with top gear and 75 RP up til lvl 29.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LavidDynch View Post
    On the other hand, a first life sorc with pickup gear (quest rewards) will out perform any quadrupel-life melee with top gear and 75 RP up til lvl 29.
    flat out incorrect. I have a 3rd life sorc in middle epics, 1 barb 1wiz, 2 Magister Eds, probably close to BiS quest gear at level 26, theres room for improvement. My DCs are low to mid 50s, full glass canon build.

    My holds in anything past R1 will frequently hit jack and **** on anything drow, and do nothing vs undead, which are quite prominent in low to middle epics. Mobs that make no sense being fire resistant frequently are (plants?!?). Even hitting them with expose elemental weakness, still yellow damage WAI?

    I have about 54% crit and 530sh resting spell power. again not great not poor.

    Do I do decent dps, sure in R1-2, but its not room clearing past that if I intend to be useful past the first 5 minutes. I have to mana conserve. I usually hold/charm if its appropriate, meteor and a DBF if no hold. let the melee clean up, which is pretty much intended. I get the mobs a little below 50% sometimes more sometimes less after the tank groups them up. It takes me 90-240sh mana each group that way. depending on how i conserve thats anywhere from 12-15 pulls between requiring a shrine.

    Yes, if I want to be a moron and cast ballstothewall spamming fully metad spells at the cost of being completely useless after the first 5 minutes, up until the next rest shrine, I can clear a few groups, probably about 6-10 of them depending on mob type dungeon layout without asking for help. But thats just an idiotic playstyle.

    Stepping into slavers and doing a screenshot of a well executed hold with uber high dcs and followed by a MS and a Blast isnt the whole picture by any means. you still have to actually finish the quest.
    Last edited by scut207; 09-13-2019 at 11:40 AM.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by LavidDynch View Post
    On the other hand, a first life sorc with pickup gear (quest rewards) will out perform any quadrupel-life melee with top gear and 75 RP up til lvl 29.

    That's quite an assertion. I think you'll need to provide evidence before that is taken seriously, including taking into account the players' skill and experience.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by scut207 View Post
    flat out incorrect. I have a 3rd life sorc in middle epics, 1 barb 1wiz, 2 Magister Eds, probably close to BiS quest gear at level 26, theres room for improvement. My DCs are low to mid 50s, full glass canon build.

    My holds in anything past R1 will frequently hit jack and **** on anything drow, and do nothing vs undead, which are quite prominent in low to middle epics. Mobs that make no sense being fire resistant frequently are (plants?!?). Even hitting them with expose elemental weakness, still yellow damage WAI?

    I have about 54% crit and 530sh resting spell power. again not great not poor.

    Do I do decent dps, sure in R1-2, but its not room clearing past that if I intend to be useful past the first 5 minutes. I have to mana conserve. I usually hold/charm if its appropriate, meteor and a DBF if no hold. let the melee clean up, which is pretty much intended. I get the mobs a little below 50% sometimes more sometimes less after the tank groups them up. It takes me 90-240sh mana each group that way. depending on how i conserve thats anywhere from 12-15 pulls between requiring a shrine.

    Yes, if I want to be a moron and cast ballstothewall spamming fully metad spells at the cost of being completely useless after the first 5 minutes, up until the next rest shrine, I can clear a few groups, probably about 6-10 of them depending on mob type dungeon layout without asking for help. But thats just an idiotic playstyle.

    Stepping into slavers and doing a screenshot of a well executed hold with uber high dcs and followed by a MS and a Blast isnt the whole picture by any means. you still have to actually finish the quest.
    But that's a player issue not a class issue. Your DC's are low, even for a glass cannon build, and then you follow that up by saying you don't even spam the cannon on a glass cannon build.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    That's quite an assertion. I think you'll need to provide evidence before that is taken seriously, including taking into account the players' skill and experience.
    Equal skill and experience the sorc outperforms the tuned melee. Experience is the evidence, this is achieved when you've recently played both and have the pattern recognition skills to notice the difference.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Well, there is truth in this. That's why I said that it is probably best to go caster if you are a "veteran" player; i.e. someone with a significant amount of grind on their backpack. I don't know how you'd optimize it for a 1st life character.

    That needs to be taken into account, IMO.

    Otherwise you doom any potential new players to back-of-the-bus status, probably permanently.

    If SSG's goal is to make 1st life characters viable, then we need to take a step back and think about this a bit more instead of calling for reactionary charges after every update.

    I think they should make 1st life toons viable. I'm not convinced that is their goal, but I hope so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emerge2012 View Post
    Equal skill and experience the sorc outperforms the tuned melee. Experience is the evidence, this is achieved when you've recently played both and have the pattern recognition skills to notice the difference.
    Then you shouldn't have any trouble showing a first life sorc with pickup gear outperforming a competently driven fully geared 4th life melee with 75 RP. I'll wait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    Then you shouldn't have any trouble showing a first life sorc with pickup gear outperforming a competently driven fully geared 4th life melee with 75 RP. I'll wait.
    I'll get right on making then leveling a sorc to prove to a random on the forums that sorcs are OP. Surely that random wouldn't then move the goal posts to suit it's lack of argument. Surely it would be worth my time.

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