Page 1 of 9 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 166
  1. #1
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    6,800

    Default You have overbuffed casters

    SSG,

    You have overbuffed casters, they are now excessively powerful and not only they are trivializing content, it has become unfun to play other archetypes along them. Leaving aside INQ, casters currently dominate the most common runs in the game; that is, heroic leveling in low to mid skulls, and epic farming in also low to mid skulls. They might be better balanced for r7 to r10 (still unconvinced), but those are not run of the most common runs in Sharn.

    This includes the new PM, that has both amazing survivability and DCs, but also the current sources, which can literally one shot entire rooms. The root of the problem are the current out of whack spell power and spell critical values, and the bloat in DCs.

    • It is now completely possibly to have a sorc that cries 100% of the time for around 3x damage, we know have spells that scale well into end game (DBF, meteor), and the draconic abilities can deal massive damage (around 100k damage from burst is not impossible).
    • PMs are trickier due to insta kills, but I have grouped with 135DC characters that, to the best of my knowledge, have no fail


    This massive surge in power is not reigned in by spell points, given bubbles, the fact that close to no fail DCs can be reach, and SP creep. More often than not casters are skipping shrines while demolishing current cap play.

    Examples:

    How much you have buffed them, by Gilga:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...94#post6248594

    A caster trivializing low skulls end game, by Strimton:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54QrTurtcSw

    I cannot emphasize how bad of an experience it is to play a melee in a group in end game questing right now.

  2. #2
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,604

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    SSG,

    You have overbuffed casters, they are now excessively powerful and not only they are trivializing content, it has become unfun to play other archetypes along them. Leaving aside INQ, casters currently dominate the most common runs in the game; that is, heroic leveling in low to mid skulls, and epic farming in also low to mid skulls. They might be better balanced for r7 to r10 (still unconvinced), but those are not run of the most common runs in Sharn.

    This includes the new PM, that has both amazing survivability and DCs, but also the current sources, which can literally one shot entire rooms. The root of the problem are the current out of whack spell power and spell critical values, and the bloat in DCs.

    • It is now completely possibly to have a sorc that cries 100% of the time for around 3x damage, we know have spells that scale well into end game (DBF, meteor), and the draconic abilities can deal massive damage (around 100k damage from burst is not impossible).
    • PMs are trickier due to insta kills, but I have grouped with 135DC characters that, to the best of my knowledge, have no fail


    This massive surge in power is not reigned in by spell points, given bubbles, the fact that close to no fail DCs can be reach, and SP creep. More often than not casters are skipping shrines while demolishing current cap play.

    Examples:

    How much you have buffed them, by Gilga:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...94#post6248594

    A caster trivializing low skulls end game, by Strimton:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54QrTurtcSw

    I cannot emphasize how bad of an experience it is to play a melee in a group in end game questing right now.

    Also the change to draconic hunger,
    it was 15 temp sp when you kill a mob,
    its now 30 temp sp when you cast a spell

  3. #3
    Community Member Ausdoerrt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Kyiv, Ukraine
    Posts
    2,388

    Default

    The problem with instakills and other DC-based spells is that they're all-or-nothing.

    If your character has 135 DC, you're basically god.
    If your character is behind on DCs, you're basically useless.
    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. ... People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true." Terry Goodkind

  4. #4
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Vietnam (from England0
    Posts
    444

    Default

    In my opinion, my PM is now fun to play, oh and i can solo lev 20-23 quests on EE at character lev 30. Bosses and red named and other non instant death monsters aren't easy to kill. I don't imagine a raid full of pm's and sorcs completing legendary shroud or other raids at high difficulty levels.
    I see melees destroying quests with me trying to keep up. The good players ignore trash and concentrate on the ' monsters' they know the spellcasters can't insta-kill.
    I'll try sorc my next life 100k spells , In my dreams!!!
    I'm not a great player but in groups I know what my job is 'kill the trash' and 'dot' the bosses oh and toss a heal or resurrect. FOM or true seeing anyone?
    I don't play much reaper but I know HOLD monster Hold monster and charm if a big mob ( then carefully remove charm 1 by 1 if needed). Yes and do whatever i can can to the reapers. With PM self healing now actually being decent i can even 'tank' an odd monster eg those in Baba raid that respawn.

    If you don't like spellcasters, make the characters you like playing build them better better.

    The players destroying content are the clever 1's who understand every AP twist gear etc, let's not forget about past lives.

    I'm usually very diplomatic but honestly I've had enough of the playground mentality . In a childs voice- "He's better than me"

    KEEP CALM , FORGET THE REST, ENJOY playing DDO.
    Just awestruck, wether it be a Dragon flying overhead Stormreach, that glowing character who just zoomed in'n'out of the Pub, or that i can drink a Beholder under the table and best of all rescuing Damsels in distress.

    Character. Alivef 1 x heroic completionist (+a few more pl's) 1 x epic completionist, and some iconic and racial pl's
    Server Thelanis

  5. #5
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    26,710

    Default

    People see a big number and equate it to high DPS. This goes all the way back to the "omg 500 point crit" threads of 2009.

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    734

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    People see a big number and equate it to high DPS. This goes all the way back to the "omg 500 point crit" threads of 2009.
    But they are high DPS, not just burst DPS, high sustainable DPS. Gilga's screenshots are just using Hold and DBF, not Energy Burst or Breath for multiple times more damage on cooldowns that equate to getting to use one per fight. Meteor Swarm, DBF, and a couple others are very much spammable and are high DPS on their own. Throw in the destiny nukes and melees can do nothing but watch in awe as a well built sorc one-shots groups on R10.

    For reaper raids SP consumption becomes an issue for those unwilling to use pots.

  7. #7
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    6,800

    Default Bad scaling: melee power vs spell power

    The whole issue is massive, at the moment.

    Casters crit 100% of the time, at 3x the damage
    Melees have big issues with grazing due to sky high ACE

    Casters rarely have SP issues
    I am more likely to run out of action boosts than SP

    Casters can remove invulnerabilities
    Melees have many issues with fortification in Sharn

    The burst damage potential (and instakill DCs) have reached a level such that entire packs of mobs die in the first few seconds of the engagement.
    Melees have no chance to accomplish such high burst.

    Caster boss DPS is good.
    Melee boss DPS is, on paper, better (if you play a FOTM); in practice, mobs move, you get mines, and what not.

    The reality of the situation is that, if you play r5 or below, mostly quest (not a hardcore raider), and you are relatively experienced in the game, there is absolutely no reason to play a melee besides pure flavor. You will die more, contribute less, quest more slowly, get rewards more slowly, and feel weaker.

  8. #8
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    87

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    snip
    What class do you play? seriously.

    this is the second thread where I've seen you pop up calling for nerfs of ranged dps.

    The grind is longer than its ever been, there's no end in sight to additions to said grind. It would take a non-basement dweller years to cap out a character with all past lives. Someone helping you expeditiously completing a dungeon is ruining the game for you?

    If you hate it so much put up a lfg (no sorcs no wiz no inquis). play your way, there's an option for that.

    Absolute balance is unneeded in a PVE game. However rolls are important. Can a wizard/sorc do traps? Can they heal others in a raid effectively? can they tank a raid boss effectively?

    If there was an achievement scale for PVP you might have a point, but all I see a whole bunch of whinging in a non-constructive manner.

    in PNP D&D a level 20 Wizard can pretty much destroy a city/alter reality on a thought whim. A rogue would have to spend hours assassinating everyone. a fighter would have to have a platoon of clerics healing him and it would take hours. Wheres the balance?

    There's absolutely no need for on par balance of DPS classes in PVE, other than the construct built in your head. I agree some level of parity is needed but some build is going to reign supreme, get ok with that. Maybe its melee soon.

  9. #9
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    2,043

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Emerge2012 View Post
    But they are high DPS, not just burst DPS, high sustainable DPS. Gilga's screenshots are just using Hold and DBF, not Energy Burst or Breath for multiple times more damage on cooldowns that equate to getting to use one per fight. Meteor Swarm, DBF, and a couple others are very much spammable and are high DPS on their own. Throw in the destiny nukes and melees can do nothing but watch in awe as a well built sorc one-shots groups on R10.

    For reaper raids SP consumption becomes an issue for those unwilling to use pots.
    Nukers are NOT one-shotting on r10. It is possible to one-shot low hitpoint mobs on r8 if they are held.
    That said...

    Yes. An energy burst + dragonbreath will kill most held packs on r10. Casters are no where near as bad as inquisitive though in terms of broken scaling. The problems with melee are related to the recent changes to the damage formulas, in addition to sharn being extremely unfriendly to them. Vengeance reapers aren't helping either, because often melee can't see the circle on them because they're in the pack of mobs.

    Casters also have a large vulnerability to despair reapers in r8+. That 135 necro is doggy doo doo if a despair reaper gets more than 4 seconds to buff the pack. The addition of doom reapers is also really holding casters back in r8+. I used to be able to solo some r10s, but the despair reapers and doom reapers are now putting me wayyyy down on the kill list.

    You still really want a DC caster in a group, but they're no longer the be-all-end-all for most quests on r8+.

    I agree that the devs have broken everything r5 and below, but lets be honest... ...it was broken before to. Characters have too much DPS, and too much power for lower difficulties, and the disparity between new and old players is a chasm that is destroying our community.
    Last edited by Sam-u-r-eye; 09-12-2019 at 11:18 AM.
    Without new players DDO will go the way of the dodo.
    r10 @ 30 stuff, Sorc Build Guide, Lagwipe Log, Ghallanda

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Emerge2012 View Post
    [...]

    For reaper raids SP consumption becomes an issue for those unwilling to use pots.
    I am not willing to use pots. Does that mean I do not get to play a sorcerer in reaper raids?

    With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility

  11. #11
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    734

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    The whole issue is massive, at the moment.

    Casters crit 100% of the time, at 3x the damage
    Melees have big issues with grazing due to sky high ACE

    Casters rarely have SP issues
    I am more likely to run out of action boosts than SP

    Casters can remove invulnerabilities
    Melees have many issues with fortification in Sharn

    The burst damage potential (and instakill DCs) have reached a level such that entire packs of mobs die in the first few seconds of the engagement.
    Melees have no chance to accomplish such high burst.

    Caster boss DPS is good.
    Melee boss DPS is, on paper, better (if you play a FOTM); in practice, mobs move, you get mines, and what not.

    The reality of the situation is that, if you play r5 or below, mostly quest (not a hardcore raider), and you are relatively experienced in the game, there is absolutely no reason to play a melee besides pure flavor. You will die more, contribute less, quest more slowly, get rewards more slowly, and feel weaker.
    The awkward moment when some day your entire post will be printed and presented by a boss in a job interview when the SSG team starts applying elsewhere.

    "Can you explain why so many people felt that way at the time? Maybe avoid the words "internal" and "metrics" in your explanation. We here at You Have No Shot At Working Here Gaming really strive for discussion that isn't based on unknown variables and circular arguments."

  12. #12
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    734

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrande View Post
    I am not willing to use pots. Does that mean I do not get to play a sorcerer in reaper raids?
    It means you conserve SP and don't go full nuke until you need to.

  13. #13
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    734

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    Nukers are NOT one-shotting on r10. It is possible to one-shot low hitpoint mobs on r8 if they are held.
    That said...

    Yes. An energy burst + dragonbreath will kill most held packs on r10. Casters are no where near as bad as inquisitive though in terms of broken scaling. The problems with melee are related to the recent changes to the damage formulas, in addition to sharn being extremely unfriendly to them. Vengeance reapers aren't helping either, because often melee can't see the circle on them because they're in the pack of mobs.

    Casters also have a large vulnerability to despair reapers in r8+. That 135 necro is doggy doo doo if a despair reaper gets more than 4 seconds to buff the pack.
    Oh son, yes they are very much one-shotting groups on R10. I've seen it.

    Also just a friendly reminder that if there's mobs still alive after 4 seconds of Despair buffing then your PM is already doodoo and should be replaced with someone competent.

  14. #14
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    2,043

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Emerge2012 View Post
    Oh son, yes they are very much one-shotting groups on R10. I've seen it.

    Also just a friendly reminder that if there's mobs still alive after 4 seconds of Despair buffing then your PM is already doodoo and should be replaced with someone competent.
    Sorry man you are a silly exaggerator. They are not. Screen shot it, lol

    I have a caster that is 95% optimized for the current meta in nuking. I also have a spreadsheet that I can link with the relevant damage on r10 (debuffs included), for if I go to 100% optimized. The numbers AREN'T there.

    The number with an optimized ice savant is like 5.6k damage on average with an Eburst. Then some mobs are gonna save. On a held target its 7k. Most new mobs have more HP than 7k. In practice you are not oneshotting. I'm not disputting that you could fluff up a pack with 3 spells and cast some more buffs on yourself to one-shot a pack.

    I'm saying that you're not one shotting packs on r10.
    Last edited by Sam-u-r-eye; 09-12-2019 at 11:28 AM.
    Without new players DDO will go the way of the dodo.
    r10 @ 30 stuff, Sorc Build Guide, Lagwipe Log, Ghallanda

  15. #15
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    6,800

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    Sorry man you are a liar. They are not. Screen shot it, lol

    I have a caster that is 95% optimized for the current meta in nuking. I also have a spreadsheet that I can link with the relevant damage on r10 (debuffs included), for if I go to 100% optimized. The numbers AREN'T there.
    Please point out the mistakes in my ''math''.

    These are the "becnhmark" stats I am using for end game sorcs. Currently ice sorc with wave seems to be the optimal version.

    1500 Spell power
    100 crit chance
    x3 crit multiplier
    MLC 41 (wave + dragonborn)

    Iceberg with MLC 35 and a vulnerability stacked boss gives me 70K damage (does sorc vulnerability stack additively or multiplicatively with regular vulnerability?).

    Energy burst with MLC 41, both vulnerabilities stacked, 109K damage with a 1.7 helpless multiplier.

    In 10 skulls, damage adjustment is by 0.154.

    This means that burst is doing: 16786=109000*0.154, so yeah, one shotting on average is not insane, but it is a bit of a stretch.

  16. #16
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    734

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    Sorry man you are a silly exaggerator. They are not. Screen shot it, lol

    I have a caster that is 95% optimized for the current meta in nuking. I also have a spreadsheet that I can link with the relevant damage on r10 (debuffs included), for if I go to 100% optimized. The numbers AREN'T there.
    Not only have I seen it but basic math can prove it. Take Gilga's screenshots as an example, that's DBF he's using. Now figure the damage difference for Burst or Breath and tell me if those mobs are still in the picture or if it's just bodies and numbers.

  17. #17
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    734

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Please point out the mistakes in my ''math''.
    Also pretty sure that ice can get to CL 46 for the spells that count. Not sure exactly what the cause is but the combat log shows it.

  18. #18
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    2,043

    Default

    These are the "becnhmark" stats I am using for end game sorcs. Currently ice sorc with wave seems to be the optimal version.

    1500 Spell power
    100 crit chance
    x3 crit multiplier
    MLC 41 (wave + dragonborn)

    Iceberg with MLC 35 and a vulnerability stacked boss gives me 70K damage (does sorc vulnerability stack additively or multiplicatively with regular vulnerability?).

    Energy burst with MLC 41, both vulnerabilities stacked, 109K damage with a 1.7 helpless multiplier.

    In 10 skulls, damage adjustment is by 0.154.

    This means that burst is doing: 16786=109000*0.154, so yeah, one shotting on average is not insane, but it is a bit of a stretch.
    1300 spell power is more realistic.
    Ice is not at 100% crit chance. It's at 83%
    MCL can be 43 on eburst
    Helpless multiplier is not 1.7, its 1.25 now unless you're dropping both meld and renewal, then ya sure its, 1.5 if you're dropping defenses and group healing.
    You shouldn't be taking the fire crit damage lvl 30 feat because you need the DCs. Like seriously.
    And that brings me to the point about how the mobs save all the time.

    I'm playing this ATM and have been playing sorcs in r10 since this stuff came out. Can you possibly one-shot a pack? Ya but your numbers are ballooned up to silliness.
    Without new players DDO will go the way of the dodo.
    r10 @ 30 stuff, Sorc Build Guide, Lagwipe Log, Ghallanda

  19. #19
    Barbarbarian Sam-u-r-eye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    2,043

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Emerge2012 View Post
    With equal skill the casters easily replace all of the melees but one.

    I agree that most of the caster/ranged parties are a mess but that's because almost all of them are noobs with new toys and they have no idea how to use them properly. Giving Inq to noobs is like buying a 1000cc sportbike for a 13 year old hoping for good things to happen.
    Not when you're pushing difficulty on raids, unless you're planning on drinking a mana pot every 20 seconds
    Without new players DDO will go the way of the dodo.
    r10 @ 30 stuff, Sorc Build Guide, Lagwipe Log, Ghallanda

  20. #20
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    734

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-u-r-eye View Post
    1300 spell power is more realistic.
    Ice is not at 100% crit chance. It's at 83%
    MCL can be 43 on eburst
    Helpless multiplier is not 1.7, its 1.25 now unless you're dropping both meld and renewal, then ya sure its, 1.5 if you're dropping defenses and group healing.
    You shouldn't be taking the fire crit damage lvl 30 feat because you need the DCs. Like seriously.
    And that brings me to the point about how the mobs save all the time.

    I'm playing this ATM and have been playing sorcs in r10 since this stuff came out. Can you possibly one-shot a pack? Ya but your numbers are ballooned up to silliness.
    Ice is 100% full time even without Energy Criticals. Good sorcs without a ton of past lives have Evo DC's around 115, better with smart investment. Also don't need Meld or Renewal when you can one-shot mobs if built correctly.

    Not trying to knock you as a person but if your capped sorc is sitting at 83% crit chance and only 43 caster levels for Burst and Breath you're pretty far behind optimal.

    A well built Sorc is just stupid amazing from top to bottom.

Page 1 of 9 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload