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  1. #141
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    One of the best changes they ever made from a balance perspective was the change to armor class. I remember running around as a first life cleric in full plate armor with a 95% chance to be hit (the enemy had to roll a 1 to miss me), the same as if I had no armor at all, because the game had been balanced around monks that could reach 80 AC who were only hit when the enemy rolled a 20.

    My biggest problem with nerfs is that they are called for (such as the original post in this very thread) when the very best of the best players are too powerful but they almost always hurt the underperforming players the most.

    The best way to 'nerf' DC's is to make a system similar to armor class where the best players have an 80%+ chance to land a spell and the worst players still manage 50% or more.

    The best way to 'nerf' spellpower is to have each additional point of spell power do less than previous points (similar to the armor class system as well). If someone with 1000 spell power does less than twice what someone with 200 spell power does, then we have a system that doesn't brutalize new players just to curb the few demi-gods we have playing the game.
    Straight from someone who does not seem to have played a DC caster. No matter how good your dc's get you are locked by your CD of spells. You want to play the garbage path you outlined above, drop cd down to 1 second. Of all the changes they could have made to AC, that one was pretty ordinary.

    The so called buff to DC's was a bit misleading. Some got a big buff outside of reaper. Inside reaper most outside of Magister got a nerf. +4 to reaper saves fixed that. Will a well geared DC caster win the kill count in high reaper? Most likely, but they are not doing the boss dps and the number of kills distance drops dramatically as you go lower because of CD.
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  2. #142
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    I want to see first life comparisons. An everything all-lives all-content all-gear should crush content relative to anything else. That shouldn't be where people are looking for 'balance'.

    Start from scratch and show something is "OP, needs a nerf".
    I have a few comments on this.

    1) How many times do you party with people without wings? I systematically PUG* all my leveling, and the majority of people are TRs. The rest might be favor runners (specially in low levels).
    2) One has to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, but both comparisons are relevant. Right now, equally grinded characters, in the hands of the same player, show massive differences in performance based on their class.
    3) What are the relevant difficulties? The vast majority of what I see in game are r1-5 skulls. As people grind more, there is a slight inflation, but that's where we stand currently.

    Given 1 through 3, I claim that the current balance of power is completely broken against melee characters. Whether you are grinding PLs of whatever type, or gear / ingredients farming, you are better served by playing a sorc/PM/INQ than you are by playing a figther/barb/rogue. You will die less, complete faster, feel more useful in parties, solo better, and have an easier time all around. Or, in other words, the current trinity META is superior to their melee counterparts.

    There are some players that don't care about balance. They play whatever is META atm (or at least top tier), and they care about their IG objectives. Others will just play casually, and perhaps just lean towards whatever is more convenient (read easy to play) atm. This seems to be a large fraction of the current playerbase.

    There is another group of players that do care about balance. They tend to play the game more "seriously" (achievements, pushing difficulty, care about contributing, etc.), and often they have some preferences over one style over another. There used to be a lot of those players around, in my experience. Build threads are among the most discussed old topics, and ddo "celebrities" were often specialists of a given class / archetype.

    There can be no understanding between these types of players. "Just have fun", "lul why do you care", and less nice replies are very common. We are doing it wrong, balance oriented vs meta players do not need to agree on anything. The devs need to openly state their priorities, and players choose to eat what is served or GTFO. Meta players will do the same in a game that is balanced and in one that is not, the question is whether SSG is interested in keeping "competitive balance pursuers" or not.


    *yes, I do know some players and join forces with them often, but we hardly ever fill a group and most often we end up having open spots.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr420247 View Post
    I guess they don't need spell pen for enchants for helpless damage or

    evoc - conj dcs for saves for half-0 damage either
    Very much this. I have encountered many situations where I refuse to use any ability that evasion works on because I cast it and nothing happens (because they evade and take zero damage). This is a far more common occurrence for normal players that people seem to think. For countless players, if something has a bow in its hand, there is no point in casting a spell that has a reflex saving throw.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by noinfo View Post
    Straight from someone who does not seem to have played a DC caster. No matter how good your dc's get you are locked by your CD of spells. You want to play the garbage path you outlined above, drop cd down to 1 second. Of all the changes they could have made to AC, that one was pretty ordinary.

    The so called buff to DC's was a bit misleading. Some got a big buff outside of reaper. Inside reaper most outside of Magister got a nerf. +4 to reaper saves fixed that. Will a well geared DC caster win the kill count in high reaper? Most likely, but they are not doing the boss dps and the number of kills distance drops dramatically as you go lower because of CD.
    It really all comes down to whether we think no fail saves are a reasonable goal. If Finger of Death was meant to always work it simply wouldn't have a saving throw. I could live with that change to be honest. Remove the saving throw entirely and it becomes an instant deal spell all the time. But if we are not going that route, we need to have a system where most casters can land their spells at least half the time. The problem with a monster have a 115 saving throw (or even 100 saving throw) is that countless caster simply cannot cast any spell that has a saving throw unless it does half damage on a save. I'm not calling for nerfs for the upper 1%. I'm calling for buffs for the lower 75%.

    I didn't suggest that system because I want the best casters to fail more than 5% of the time. I called for it because, if we must have a nerf, I want to floor to be brought up any time the ceiling is brought down. Usually when games nerf something they bring down both the ceiling and the floor and when you play the game with everyday players you realize that most players are closer to the floor than they are to the ceiling. The game needs higher floors.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    It really all comes down to whether we think no fail saves are a reasonable goal. If Finger of Death was meant to always work it simply wouldn't have a saving throw. I could live with that change to be honest. Remove the saving throw entirely and it becomes an instant deal spell all the time. But if we are not going that route, we need to have a system where most casters can land their spells at least half the time. The problem with a monster have a 115 saving throw (or even 100 saving throw) is that countless caster simply cannot cast any spell that has a saving throw unless it does half damage on a save. I'm not calling for nerfs for the upper 1%. I'm calling for buffs for the lower 75%.

    I didn't suggest that system because I want the best casters to fail more than 5% of the time. I called for it because, if we must have a nerf, I want to floor to be brought up any time the ceiling is brought down. Usually when games nerf something they bring down both the ceiling and the floor and when you play the game with everyday players you realize that most players are closer to the floor than they are to the ceiling. The game needs higher floors.
    This would reduce profit, I mean grind.

    Not sure this change would be that great for a game as DDO thou, this weird system of spell failure/save is what makes this game unique... ... on the other hand I can totally agree with you, my less played and geared alt would love to actually have chance of landing the spells he has memorized..
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  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    But if we are not going that route, we need to have a system where most casters can land their spells at least half the time.
    I'm pretty sure that's already true. Is there any content, at at all, where someone who has at least tried to build & gear for DCs (even if they don't have any PLs or hyper-optimized raid gear) can't land their spells at least 50% of the time, on Normal? Or Casual? And I suspect anyone building for DCs, again without PLs and super-gear, does fine in most quests against most monsters even on Hard. There are multiple difficulties for a reason.

    If there's actually a problem with caster DCs on un-optimized characters that can't be solved by trying it at a lower difficulty level, I'd love to hear about it, as I agree it would be a problem.

    But if you're saying people who haven't put in the effort to optimize their build & gear should be able to succeed in the hardest content, I view your premise as seriously flawed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I'm pretty sure that's already true. Is there any content, at at all, where someone who has at least tried to build & gear for DCs (even if they don't have any PLs or hyper-optimized raid gear) can't land their spells at least 50% of the time, on Normal? Or Casual? And I suspect anyone building for DCs, again without PLs and super-gear, does fine in most quests against most monsters even on Hard. There are multiple difficulties for a reason.

    If there's actually a problem with caster DCs on un-optimized characters that can't be solved by trying it at a lower difficulty level, I'd love to hear about it, as I agree it would be a problem.

    But if you're saying people who haven't put in the effort to optimize their build & gear should be able to succeed in the hardest content, I view your premise as seriously flawed.
    I agree, in principle. Favor already rewarded only running e/r, and now named item drops also heavily reward e/r. It's hard to accept that "it works fine in normal" has any value as an argument. Saying it's ok that it only works in n/h unless you have the PLs and gear is saying we don't want any new players. If gear was not dropping with punishing low chances in lower difficulties, then I would say sure, run it lower til you get the gear... but drop rates are so much better on e/r that it's not a reward for difficulty, it's a punishment for not already being established.

    25/30/35 would be a nice boost for running it higher and have a better chance to get it before ransacking.
    10/17/33 is HaHa you play on normal? get lost noob.
    Last edited by Cantor; 09-16-2019 at 08:39 AM.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    I agree, in principle. Favor already rewarded only running e/r, and now named item drops also heavily reward e/r. It's hard to accept that "it works fine in normal" has any value as an argument. Saying it's ok that it only works in n/h unless you have the PLs and gear is saying we don't want any new players. If gear was not dropping with punishing low chances in lower difficulties, then I would say sure, run it lower til you get the gear... but drop rates are so much better on e/r that it's not a reward for difficulty, it's a punishment for not already being established.

    25/30/35 would be a nice boost for running it higher and have a better chance to get it before ransacking.
    10/17/33 is HaHa you play on normal? get lost noob.
    Heh, isn't it 5-16-33?

    I don't mind the drop rates though. Newer players running on Normal are still very much in the honeymoon stage with DDO and the low drop chances make getting something VERY exciting.

  9. #149
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    I often wonder if balance could be closer if the following occurred

    1. Remove the recovery of debuffs over time both on NPC and PC alike
    2. Make weapon debuffs work on charges, making them situational resources

    Basically make debuffs matter more at all levels of the game. In doing this the game can move away from "DPS is King" mentality and reward strategic play.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    If gear was not dropping with punishing low chances in lower difficulties, then I would say sure, run it lower til you get the gear... but drop rates are so much better on e/r that it's not a reward for difficulty, it's a punishment for not already being established.

    That! ^^^

    Running on Normal/Hard lost it charm on DDO after 2010-2011.
    Is not XP Rewarding
    Is not Loot Rewarding
    Is not Favor Rewarding
    Is not even "know to play the game" Rewarding because you have to re-learn the game to play in Elite/Reaper difficulties.

    So, Normal/Hard is what Casual meant in early 2009... a statement that the game isn't for you. If the game isn't for you, you leave and go play another game. And there we have a decaying player base and no retention of new/returning/casual players.

    All game is based on a toxic Meta community that is vanishing because they are burning out.
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  11. #151
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    Then you shouldn't have any trouble showing a first life sorc with pickup gear outperforming a competently driven fully geared 4th life melee with 75 RP. I'll wait.
    You can log into the HC server and witness who is sliding into the reward tiers and who isnt. That will show you first life.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I have a few comments on this.

    1) How many times do you party with people without wings? I systematically PUG* all my leveling, and the majority of people are TRs. The rest might be favor runners (specially in low levels).
    2) One has to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, but both comparisons are relevant. Right now, equally grinded characters, in the hands of the same player, show massive differences in performance based on their class.
    3) What are the relevant difficulties? The vast majority of what I see in game are r1-5 skulls. As people grind more, there is a slight inflation, but that's where we stand currently.

    Given 1 through 3, I claim that the current balance of power is completely broken against melee characters. Whether you are grinding PLs of whatever type, or gear / ingredients farming, you are better served by playing a sorc/PM/INQ than you are by playing a figther/barb/rogue. You will die less, complete faster, feel more useful in parties, solo better, and have an easier time all around. Or, in other words, the current trinity META is superior to their melee counterparts.

    There are some players that don't care about balance. They play whatever is META atm (or at least top tier), and they care about their IG objectives. Others will just play casually, and perhaps just lean towards whatever is more convenient (read easy to play) atm. This seems to be a large fraction of the current playerbase.

    There is another group of players that do care about balance. They tend to play the game more "seriously" (achievements, pushing difficulty, care about contributing, etc.), and often they have some preferences over one style over another. There used to be a lot of those players around, in my experience. Build threads are among the most discussed old topics, and ddo "celebrities" were often specialists of a given class / archetype.

    There can be no understanding between these types of players. "Just have fun", "lul why do you care", and less nice replies are very common. We are doing it wrong, balance oriented vs meta players do not need to agree on anything. The devs need to openly state their priorities, and players choose to eat what is served or GTFO. Meta players will do the same in a game that is balanced and in one that is not, the question is whether SSG is interested in keeping "competitive balance pursuers" or not.


    *yes, I do know some players and join forces with them often, but we hardly ever fill a group and most often we end up having open spots.

    "What can a 1st life character do?" --- That points directly to game design. It directly or indirectly addresses your points.

    You want melees buffed. Some would say, "drop the difficulty level", or "Reaper was designed to be a 'challenge', enjoy your challenge."

    You want melees buffed. Will classes simply be essentially cosmetic, a generic avatar of mediocrity? I asked you once before, do you want every class to have equal DPS output?

    What I see with SSG's game design is something akin to a hormone-addled teen seeing a classic British sports car (say, a Jaguar E-type), and thinking, "wow, that's a beautiful car, but what it really needs is rear wing spot-welded to the boot."

    I think we are seeing two separate issues right now.
    • There is a response time lag (haha!) between what the community expresses as its interests and what gets implemented.
    • There is no reason from a game integrity perspective for all the power creep dumped into the game.


    I really wish some things would happen, including (but not limited to):
    SSG needs to stop making philosophical changes to the game for a year or so. During that time, fix bugs and create new content. Improve the player experience with QoL improvements. No more power creep, no more class changes etc., with the goal being to let things settle, let everyone experience the changes. That way the community can engage meaningfully with SSG with everyone being, hopefully, on the same page. Then, maybe, management can either figure out how to fix what's broken with game design, or find someone who can.

    Once first life characters are viable, a lot of things fix themselves. New players suddenly can enjoy the game. Maybe someone will try DDO for the first time (and stay). Alts become a thing again. Grouping viability improves.

    Otherwise, you're stuck playing field hockey in a game where the refs are constantly awarding you penalty shots but keep moving the goal posts farther away.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyed-Pyper View Post
    SSG needs to stop making philosophical changes to the game for a year or so. During that time, fix bugs and create new content. Improve the player experience with QoL improvements. No more power creep, no more class changes etc., with the goal being to let things settle, let everyone experience the changes. That way the community can engage meaningfully with SSG with everyone being, hopefully, on the same page. Then, maybe, management can either figure out how to fix what's broken with game design, or find someone who can.
    +1
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  14. #154
    Community Member Chilldude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    SSG,

    You have overbuffed casters...

    ...This massive surge in power is not reigned in by spell points, given bubbles, the fact that close to no fail DCs can be reach, and SP creep. More often than not casters are skipping shrines while demolishing current cap play.

    Examples:

    How much you have buffed them, by Gilga:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...94#post6248594

    A caster trivializing low skulls end game, by Strimton:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54QrTurtcSw

    I cannot emphasize how bad of an experience it is to play a melee in a group in end game questing right now.
    In the video, which I could only stand to watch a minute or two of, dude is destroying R1... big whoop. A year ago I stopped by to check on the state of the game and I saw melee (a barbarian specifically) absolutely demolishing R8-10 solo.

    From what little I've seen so far, I believe casters are probably still underpowered, but can at least farm low reaper better than before which was pretty much not at all.
    The Final Victory Tour!!!

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You can log into the HC server and witness who is sliding into the reward tiers and who isnt. That will show you first life.
    yeh, sure. but that's not the same game. Sure a barb is first to get most favor, in that setting. What class does that first when death isn't an issue?

    I agree that in that setting things look more balanced, but that's not the game people regularly play. People have 100 hp from past lives and 100s of hp from reaper people have jibbers and raise scrolls.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    yeh, sure. but that's not the same game. Sure a barb is first to get most favor, in that setting. What class does that first when death isn't an issue?

    I agree that in that setting things look more balanced, but that's not the game people regularly play. People have 100 hp from past lives and 100s of hp from reaper people have jibbers and raise scrolls.
    Also, to be first on the HC server in favor you only need to run elite... and you can probably reach top 10 by riding the success of the group; if your running with friends or is a social person it´s probably not that hard. Point is, doesn´t really say anything about the power of a class. My opener/chestfarming alt-character got 68 personal 'human kills' out of 10k, last time I peaked in the monster manual, my main toon got like 85% of the kills (better to put in a qualifier here: not that I´m great but I guess I solo a lot on him).

    not saying that the top guy actually did that or that it would be less of an achievement (whatever that is) if he/she did.
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  17. #157
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    yeh, sure. but that's not the same game. Sure a barb is first to get most favor, in that setting. What class does that first when death isn't an issue?
    The same class thats doing it fastest when death is an issue. In order for this to NOT be the case you have to skew it even further, and run at zerg speed with friends who will just deposit you at the shrine each time death occurs. If not, you are repeating quests from the beginning each death, or losing XP on re-entry etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    I agree that in that setting things look more balanced, but that's not the game people regularly play. People have 100 hp from past lives and 100s of hp from reaper people have jibbers and raise scrolls.
    So whats the complaint then? That when the game is easier a different class dominates? Sure, because when a min maxer receives the "min" punishment for character death they can "max" out offense with "min" investment in every thing else.

    This highlights another different issue. Power creep. Giving min maxers the ability to shore up every "min" in their build with another gear item immunity or different progression tree rather than enforcing trade offs is the issue here.

    Some of us were telling the rest that sorcs were already on par to warlocks right after warlock came out. Most didnt believe it and demanded buffs. This is the result. Those who were already good on sorcs are now dominating, and those who were not so good on sorcs are now doing well.

  18. #158
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    Anybody who enjoys the melee playstyle has a view the devs hate them and why wouldnt they.

    They nerf power surge for fighters only to create a dominate range style inquisitive.

    They do nothing for thfing playstyle which has been bad for years only to buff wizzy one of the best classes already.

    Thye nerf monks because of one set of handwraps to bump sorc damage.

    They give an epic defensive fighting stance that doesnt stack with 2 melee stances to add +5 dc to magistar cores.

    Right now it looks really bad from people who enjoy melees that the devs are really abandoning them. Many have just plain quit.
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  19. #159
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    Did I miss something? Casters have always been better at mid-higher levels...… also in Pen-and-Paper.
    This is like authentic 3.5 DnD experience.
    kruemeli of Orien - Leader of the "Merry" Hobbits https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...20#post5002220
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    I just Keep quiet and think.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYP8M06A8W0

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by count_spicoli View Post
    Anybody who enjoys the melee playstyle has a view the devs hate them and why wouldnt they.

    They nerf power surge for fighters only to create a dominate range style inquisitive.

    They do nothing for thfing playstyle which has been bad for years only to buff wizzy one of the best classes already.

    Thye nerf monks because of one set of handwraps to bump sorc damage.

    They give an epic defensive fighting stance that doesnt stack with 2 melee stances to add +5 dc to magistar cores.

    Right now it looks really bad from people who enjoy melees that the devs are really abandoning them. Many have just plain quit.
    THFing needs so much love.
    Without new players DDO will go the way of the dodo.
    r10 @ 30 stuff, Sorc Build Guide, Lagwipe Log, Ghallanda

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