Results 1 to 11 of 11
  1. #1
    Community Member Standal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    761

    Default How to improve grouping - Time to break the quest chains

    I don't recall ever seeing this idea, but I imagine it's been posted before. Regardless, the devs don't seem to be on board.

    It's time to stop linking quest arcs, and break all existing links. Why can't I run Sschindylryn quests without completing the King's Forest chain? Why are all the Ravenloft chains linked? Why are there 2 arcs to the Sharn saga? This is pointless and hurts the game. Please stop doing it and break these chains. You can maintain arcs with an end quest as long as they can be red doored, but it's time to quit restricting people's ability to group based on what? Lore? We've all run or will run these quests dozens of times. Stop pretending that it's a table top game.

  2. #2
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    96

    Default

    I would reframe the issue. I do believe that quest arcs can enhance the experience, if they tell a good story. For Eveningstar, this definitely applies. Even if you don't read the fluff, you sort of grasp what is happening by osmosis and it all culminates in stomping a god, which is always nice. Furthermore, we do have many different approaches to how adventure packs (or more precise: story lines) are constructed - step-by-step flagging like LoD, group-by-group flagging like ES, some flagging some not like Demon Sands, redboxable or not redboxable - there is a lot of variety, which is overall a good thing. It's also easy to make the argument for why this is like that in terms of the storyline, you can't bring Ana to the portal (C2p4) without first freeing her (C1p3).
    So in short: I get why it is the way it is, and it's not necessarily a bad thing.

    What is a bad thing though is Ravenloft. The level range goes from 10-12 meaning some people will do all in a row while others will do the 10s, then other 10s, then 11s, etc. Also, if you're at 13 and haven't done C1, noone will group with you. This isn't an issue for epics (see: ES) as epics are far more flexible in that regard. Besides, and this is the most important thing here: DON'T MAKE THE FIRST QUEST THE SHORTEST ONE! Imagine the first quest taking forever - it means that you can start and amass your party while it progresses. It'd be fine if you could do stuff out of order (see: ES). Skip the short first one and zerg it together as a clean-up (see: ES). Noone minds doing a 40sec EE Impossible Demands before Battle for ES, it's par for the course. With Into the Mists it could be that your build just isn't ready to handle it. So yeah, nowadays you could reduce the difficulty, which definitely makes it more viable, but it still feels bad.
    Another issue with RL is that it's heroic and epic, so if you skip it in heroics, it limits your ability to join epic parties. For me, whether or not I do anything in RL in a life purely depends on how lucky I get with a party that just started Into the Mists when I join. I don't bother posting (for the aforementioned reasons) and if I miss Mists I just let it go.


    TL;DR: If there is a fixed order, the first quest should be long, so parties can form. Gatekeeping quests like Mists don't serve any purpose except for annoyance. Good story lines excuse restrictions in quest order freedom. Ideally, not every quest of a pack should be required to move on (see: GH), althouth that could lead to unfortunate bastard children of quests that VIPs simply skip and other struggle to get parties for (see: GH).

  3. #3
    Community Member Standal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnFlory View Post
    I would reframe the issue. I do believe that quest arcs can enhance the experience, if they tell a good story. For Eveningstar, this definitely applies. Even if you don't read the fluff, you sort of grasp what is happening by osmosis and it all culminates in stomping a god, which is always nice. Furthermore, we do have many different approaches to how adventure packs (or more precise: story lines) are constructed - step-by-step flagging like LoD, group-by-group flagging like ES, some flagging some not like Demon Sands, redboxable or not redboxable - there is a lot of variety, which is overall a good thing. It's also easy to make the argument for why this is like that in terms of the storyline, you can't bring Ana to the portal (C2p4) without first freeing her (C1p3).
    So in short: I get why it is the way it is, and it's not necessarily a bad thing.

    What is a bad thing though is Ravenloft. The level range goes from 10-12 meaning some people will do all in a row while others will do the 10s, then other 10s, then 11s, etc. Also, if you're at 13 and haven't done C1, noone will group with you. This isn't an issue for epics (see: ES) as epics are far more flexible in that regard. Besides, and this is the most important thing here: DON'T MAKE THE FIRST QUEST THE SHORTEST ONE! Imagine the first quest taking forever - it means that you can start and amass your party while it progresses. It'd be fine if you could do stuff out of order (see: ES). Skip the short first one and zerg it together as a clean-up (see: ES). Noone minds doing a 40sec EE Impossible Demands before Battle for ES, it's par for the course. With Into the Mists it could be that your build just isn't ready to handle it. So yeah, nowadays you could reduce the difficulty, which definitely makes it more viable, but it still feels bad.
    Another issue with RL is that it's heroic and epic, so if you skip it in heroics, it limits your ability to join epic parties. For me, whether or not I do anything in RL in a life purely depends on how lucky I get with a party that just started Into the Mists when I join. I don't bother posting (for the aforementioned reasons) and if I miss Mists I just let it go.


    TL;DR: If there is a fixed order, the first quest should be long, so parties can form. Gatekeeping quests like Mists don't serve any purpose except for annoyance. Good story lines excuse restrictions in quest order freedom. Ideally, not every quest of a pack should be required to move on (see: GH), althouth that could lead to unfortunate bastard children of quests that VIPs simply skip and other struggle to get parties for (see: GH).
    What is different between Estar and Ravenloft? If you're locked out, you're locked out. Why can't I run "House of Broken Chains" before "Battle for Eveningstar"? You understand that the Ravenloft chaining is bad, but don't understand that Eveningstar is the same exact thing? ***? I can't tell you the number of times that I was running with guildies trying to flag for CITW and the entire thing became a "we have to run the King's Forest quests again because new to the group guildie isn't flagged".

    You're allowed to have an opinion, but when you're opinion is that forced quest arc order is a good thing, it is necessary to point out that you're not in any way correct.

  4. #4
    Community Member SoVeryBelgian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    176

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnFlory View Post


    TL;DR: If there is a fixed order, the first quest should be long, so parties can form. Gatekeeping quests like Mists don't serve any purpose except for annoyance. Good story lines excuse restrictions in quest order freedom. Ideally, not every quest of a pack should be required to move on (see: GH), althouth that could lead to unfortunate bastard children of quests that VIPs simply skip and other struggle to get parties for (see: GH).
    Def agree about Into the Mists. IDC about the Estar stuff as much cuz its in Epics and plenty of people go in order with full teams for those.

    But yeah RL is hard to snag an appropriate party for at level, and you can outlevel it quick. Although I do always get an exp slowdown from 10 to 13.
    I might be addicted to pack design!


  5. #5
    2014 DDO Players Council
    SirValentine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Eastern USA
    Posts
    7,167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Standal View Post
    You're allowed to have an opinion, but when you're opinion is that forced quest arc order is a good thing, it is necessary to point out that you're not in any way correct.
    You're allowed to have an opinion, too, but when your opinion is that destroying the story for the sake of your temporary convenience is a good thing, it is necessary to point out that you're not in any way correct.

    (See, I can do it, too!)

    Why don't you just go get flagged, instead of declaring yourself the Universal Arbiter of Correct Opinions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  6. #6
    Community Member Erofen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Standal View Post
    You can maintain arcs with an end quest as long as they can be red doored, but it's time to quit restricting people's ability to group based on what? Lore? We've all run or will run these quests dozens of times. Stop pretending that it's a table top game.
    Since people seem to be hating on Ravenloft chaining so much, I'd like to point out that after running into the mists (a super short quest), you can red door every quest in Ravenloft. The only thing you won't be able to enter is one raid: strahd. The real chaining problem and design problem imo is the main sharn saga. None of those quests can be run without everyone picking up the quests every time. No red dooring available. Cogs is fine.

    I also want to a address the second half of this. Not everyone will run all of these dozens of times. And lore is a big part of dnd (which the game is based on). The story is a pretty big draw to a lot of players who don't care to zerg everything. I may zerg RL now, but my first time, I turned on game sounds and just went through the story. It was kinda spooky and cool.
    Orien: ~Erofen (30 Assassin Rogue) ~Erofenlock (30 EB Warlock) ~Erofenmonk (30 Light Monk) ~Erofentrap (30 Roguerficer (1st TR/Legend Build ever)) ~Erofenbarb (30 Barb) ~Erofenbless (30 FvS Chest Blesser) ~Erofenthree (30 Bard Dualbox) ~Erofenten (30 Barb Triplebox)
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Um, I'm almost afraid to ask, but exactly just what is 'sneak humping'? Kex! Stop It! O.o

  7. #7
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    9,178

    Default

    As someone that enjoys the "story arc", I understand why they are implemented.

    That being said, I do think they need to look at the Sharn series and the "Quest Entrances" as the series does not allow you to read box. It is interesting that they didn't implement the same quest UI that is used for The Druid's Deep and Tangleroot.

    As a note, a player can red box the Sschindylryn quests. They will need to run through the Kings Forest, enter the Underdark cave and use the Portal to Sschindylryn to get there, but once there as long as someone has the quest they can enter.
    Last edited by Enoach; 09-09-2019 at 10:03 AM.

  8. #8
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,475

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    You're allowed to have an opinion, too, but when your opinion is that destroying the story for the sake of your temporary convenience is a good thing, it is necessary to point out that you're not in any way correct.

    (See, I can do it, too!)

    Why don't you just go get flagged, instead of declaring yourself the Universal Arbiter of Correct Opinions?
    Because reincarnation breaks flagging and SSG's business model is "All reincarnation, all the time!"

    If YOU want to run the entire chain, that's awesome. You still can.

    If YOU want other people to have to run the entire chain because YOU think it makes the story better, that's kind of crappy.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  9. #9
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,918

    Default

    I think that Tangleroot did several things right : It breaks a long chain down into smaller pieces. That's imho how it should be.
    The only - but then rather serious - drawback with Tangleroot is that everything becomes quite repetitive (spelling ?) because of that.
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tapper this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this tale."
    English is not my first language - misinterpretations galore !

  10. #10
    Community Member Potatofasf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Brazil, RJ
    Posts
    478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Because reincarnation breaks flagging and SSG's business model is "All reincarnation, all the time!"

    If YOU want to run the entire chain, that's awesome. You still can.

    If YOU want other people to have to run the entire chain because YOU think it makes the story better, that's kind of crappy.
    Exacly!

    The reflag thing after reincarnation is so bizarre. All does story arcs that demands a reflag is BS, we already have run that story arc.

    Necro IV is a big offender, that sigil **** that have to be filled with parts that never drops are so frustrating.
    Not everyone has 70+ lifes of sigil farm.
    No Signature...

  11. #11
    Community Member Erofen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Potatofasf View Post
    Necro IV is a big offender, that sigil **** that have to be filled with parts that never drops are so frustrating.
    Not everyone has 70+ lifes of sigil farm.
    This hasn't been a problem since they changed the sigil to be a permanent item. You only have to get the pieces once per toon.
    Orien: ~Erofen (30 Assassin Rogue) ~Erofenlock (30 EB Warlock) ~Erofenmonk (30 Light Monk) ~Erofentrap (30 Roguerficer (1st TR/Legend Build ever)) ~Erofenbarb (30 Barb) ~Erofenbless (30 FvS Chest Blesser) ~Erofenthree (30 Bard Dualbox) ~Erofenten (30 Barb Triplebox)
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Um, I'm almost afraid to ask, but exactly just what is 'sneak humping'? Kex! Stop It! O.o

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload