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  1. #1
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Default Questions about melees in high tier content/higher reaper

    Preface:

    I am not a good melee player.

    I prefer to play Cleric and/or Bard in a group setting and do the teamwork thing.

    I will solo as a melee, but anything over R1 gets dangerous really quickly (for me...because I am not good?).

    So my questions are this:

    Other than Dire Charge, how hard is it to land a Stunning Blow, or Stunnng Fist or Spinning Ice or Trip/Improved Trip in higher tier content?

    Would it be possible to lower a monsters saves to melee crowd control options, but leave them as is for magic based crowd control?

    Like for example, Soundburst Save (Fort) vs Stunning Blow (Fort)

    Or can a (good) melee hit super high DCs on the combat tactcs (not counting Dire Charge)?
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  2. #2
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    Other than Dire Charge, how hard is it to land a Stunning Blow, or Stunnng Fist or Spinning Ice or Trip/Improved Trip in higher tier content?
    Unless you really build for it, it is hard. Sharn mobs can easily save a 100+ fort check, and not all melees have easy access to 120-130+ tactics. For example, landing spinning ice on a non PDK must be pretty hard (I moved off bard some time ago, maybe someone can illustrate this better than me).


    Would it be possible to lower a monsters saves to melee crowd control options, but leave them as is for magic based crowd control?
    Like for example, Soundburst Save (Fort) vs Stunning Blow (Fort)
    Yes, this is precisely what the last update did to reaper. I don't know if it is enough, though, since I am seeing people beat the DCs anyway.

    As you point out, there is an imbalance in the way CC options have been implemented. Most martial melee CC has long cool downs, tends to be single target, and only affect one mob. At this point, it is clear that beyond some fringe examples of people soloing older quests with fleshy mobs, melee CC is truly not enough in high end game play.

    The way current CC options are organized defeats the common indeed of ''trade offs''. One would expect, generally speaking, CC would be balanced along the dimensions of: duration, targets, immunities, cost, cool downs. As pointed out earlier, this is absolutely not the case...at all....in the least...

    I have yet to see the devs engage in a reasonable discussion about these facts, so I hope people in the PC can bring it up and insist.

  3. #3
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    That was what I was experiencing to a point with a Spinning Ice build pre Reaper.

    I had to put so much into it. I keep seeing new gear and think; "Hey I bet with that new gear, I can hit DCs for OLD CONTENT NOW"

    I never ran a PDK Bard, I did a regular human bard with 3 Fighter PLs, which helped a lot. Also with the new potential +6 DC from the new Epic PL, mayb that is doable?
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    That was what I was experiencing to a point with a Spinning Ice build pre Reaper.

    I had to put so much into it. I keep seeing new gear and think; "Hey I bet with that new gear, I can hit DCs for OLD CONTENT NOW"

    I never ran a PDK Bard, I did a regular human bard with 3 Fighter PLs, which helped a lot. Also with the new potential +6 DC from the new Epic PL, mayb that is doable?
    Totally doable, without the +6 stance.

    I just use tactics cha bonus from 1 level of fvs.

    I use frozen fury, so 4 less DC, and it lands reliably on high R, and while I have devoted some resources to stun, I haven't maxed out by any means.

    Frozen fury, dire charge, siren's song, low blow, coup, guardbreaking = decent whack of cc
    Last edited by BoBoDaClown; 09-06-2019 at 08:29 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Like others have said, in my experience looking at the DCs it's really hard to hit the requirements for no fail unless you focus your build on it and sacrifice a lot in other areas. Though if you're a fighter or something with access to more DC bonuses via tactics feats and such I'd think it'd probably be do-able. But you said cleric or bard so...

    I recently looked into what it'd take to get my falconry DC for my melee cleric to hit in reaper sharn and that's basically the conclusion I came to.

    But keep in mind the save type and that mobs save type varies. So caster mobs have lower reflex saves for example. So having not an optimal DC but still having it be useful again certain mobs is still a thing. Though I'm not completely versed on the save differences in reaper between different mobs in reaper I'll admit.
    Last edited by axel15810; 09-06-2019 at 04:20 PM.

  6. #6
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    Outside of Sharn DC targets are pretty reasonable even into high reaper.

    In Sharn however it's significantly harder to hit consistent DC's and this is complicated even further by mob AC being much higher creating a lot more grazing hits, which don't proc any of the stuns. Where a stun DC of 115 or so was good for previous high reaper content it's low end in Sharn where most of the non-constructs or casters have very high fort saves.

    For LE or under you don't need to make a hardcore build. But once you start going towards mid-reaper and up a PDK is the only way to go and you absolutely want tier 5 warchanter over swash. Mob fortification in reaper Sharn is high enough that unless you're perfectly set up for fort bypass (aka still wearing silent avenger set + insightful bypass ring from slavers with grim precision twisted) you're not going to be getting many crits, if any, on a lot of Sharn mobs and bosses. Swash is mostly about getting crits and without a nearly perfect gear setup Sharn pretty much nullifies the entire tree for half the mobs.

    For LE Sharn a stun DC of 100-105 is probably good enough 90% of the time. Start running R5 and you need 115 or so, R10 is closer to 125 and some mobs need another 10 on top of that. Outside of Sharn 90 is good for LE and 115-120 is more than enough for R10.

  7. #7
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emerge2012 View Post
    Outside of Sharn DC targets are pretty reasonable even into high reaper.

    In Sharn however it's significantly harder to hit consistent DC's and this is complicated even further by mob AC being much higher creating a lot more grazing hits, which don't proc any of the stuns. Where a stun DC of 115 or so was good for previous high reaper content it's low end in Sharn where most of the non-constructs or casters have very high fort saves.

    For LE or under you don't need to make a hardcore build. But once you start going towards mid-reaper and up a PDK is the only way to go and you absolutely want tier 5 warchanter over swash. Mob fortification in reaper Sharn is high enough that unless you're perfectly set up for fort bypass (aka still wearing silent avenger set + insightful bypass ring from slavers with grim precision twisted) you're not going to be getting many crits, if any, on a lot of Sharn mobs and bosses. Swash is mostly about getting crits and without a nearly perfect gear setup Sharn pretty much nullifies the entire tree for half the mobs.

    For LE Sharn a stun DC of 100-105 is probably good enough 90% of the time. Start running R5 and you need 115 or so, R10 is closer to 125 and some mobs need another 10 on top of that. Outside of Sharn 90 is good for LE and 115-120 is more than enough for R10.
    This is fairly accurate information. One does need to get pretty good gear (raid gear is not required) to run the latest end-game content at mid-to-high reaper.

    But one can run Sharn at LE or low level reaper to get that gear. And THEN move up to mid level reaper. So I don't see the requirement for near perfect gear (again, just BtA quest gear) to be a problem.

    I disagree a bit on the crits. Fairly easy to get a lot of fort bypass at end-game. One still gets plenty of crits in Sharn.. Stating that one may not get ANY crits is over-exaggerating.

    Still, good post Emerge2012.
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  8. #8
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    Not sure what you are planning to play, but it's not a bad idea to avoid buying Sharn unless you are going to be geared extraordinarily well. They keep making new content harder and harder and we can all do our part by simply not buying it until they get the message that the need for such ridiculous saves doesn't need to be a part of content below R5.

  9. #9
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This is fairly accurate information. One does need to get pretty good gear (raid gear is not required) to run the latest end-game content at mid-to-high reaper.

    But one can run Sharn at LE or low level reaper to get that gear. And THEN move up to mid level reaper. So I don't see the requirement for near perfect gear (again, just BtA quest gear) to be a problem.

    I disagree a bit on the crits. Fairly easy to get a lot of fort bypass at end-game. One still gets plenty of crits in Sharn.. Stating that one may not get ANY crits is over-exaggerating.

    Still, good post Emerge2012.
    Yeah, I would like to just upgrade my character a good bit. Super good point about EE being fine for drops.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    You can also try non DC based CC.

    Legendary salt is amazing and probably the best melee based CC available. The downside is it only shows up in raid weapons or legendary shroud crafting. Another easier option to get is guard breaking. If your running a bard like you said you enjoyed a swashbuckler with a guard breaking item works really well for soft CC. There are also some weapons with it for TWF. And lastly is sleetstorm, this is a strong CC spell option giving no-save blindness to mobs. Just have FoM for your friends.

    Also keep in mind that most end game r5+ content is run in groups and there will almost for sure be a DC caster of some sort who can provide CC to your party.

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