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  1. #1
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    Default Should the coming Archmage revamp really focus on SLAs?

    Playing my Pale Master I already have 3 SLAs plus a HUGE amount of spells. The amount of spells is actually insane. It's not by chance that D&D 4th and 5th editions decided to shrink the Wizard spell list.

    So, thinking about the coming Archmage revamp, I really don't think more SLAs would be good for a Wizard's life.. yet I understand Archmage currently is based on school SLAs.

    So, my question for you guys (and Devs) is:

    Can Archmage become something else other than an SLA horder?
    Can it be instead a jack-of-all-trades caster? Maybe focusing on metamagic, extra spell points, spell points regeneration, etc?
    Or at least grant bonuses to specific schools/spells, but without adding more SLAs..

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by lppmor View Post
    Playing my Pale Master I already have 3 SLAs plus a HUGE amount of spells. The amount of spells is actually insane. It's not by chance that D&D 4th and 5th editions decided to shrink the Wizard spell list.

    So, thinking about the coming Archmage revamp, I really don't think more SLAs would be good for a Wizard's life.. yet I understand Archmage currently is based on school SLAs.

    So, my question for you guys (and Devs) is:

    Can Archmage become something else other than an SLA horder?
    Can it be instead a jack-of-all-trades caster? Maybe focusing on metamagic, extra spell points, spell points regeneration, etc?
    Or at least grant bonuses to specific schools/spells, but without adding more SLAs..
    The main reason I play a wizard is because it has a lot of options in terms of spells it can choose from, etc. May I suggest you play a warlock, my dude?

  3. #3
    Community Member Requiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lppmor View Post
    Playing my Pale Master I already have 3 SLAs plus a HUGE amount of spells. The amount of spells is actually insane. It's not by chance that D&D 4th and 5th editions decided to shrink the Wizard spell list.

    So, thinking about the coming Archmage revamp, I really don't think more SLAs would be good for a Wizard's life.. yet I understand Archmage currently is based on school SLAs.

    So, my question for you guys (and Devs) is:

    Can Archmage become something else other than an SLA horder?
    Can it be instead a jack-of-all-trades caster? Maybe focusing on metamagic, extra spell points, spell points regeneration, etc?
    Or at least grant bonuses to specific schools/spells, but without adding more SLAs..
    SL-a is part of the Archmage.
    But I suggest a different approach in my thread
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  4. #4
    Community Member Itchybeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lppmor View Post
    /snip/

    So, my question for you guys (and Devs) is:

    Can Archmage become something else other than an SLA horder?
    Can it be instead a jack-of-all-trades caster? Maybe focusing on metamagic, extra spell points, spell points regeneration, etc?/snip
    I find this specific idea very useful for archmage. Perhaps in a core ability or high-tier ability? It doesn't have to be very high in terms of spell points per minute. (Aside from lost souls) drinking yugo pots and concordant opposition for GS is great, but something inherent in the wizard itself seems to be begging for a small mana regen.
    >>>Itchybeard (Crafter), Greensmash (Main), All Others (Mules)<<<

  5. #5
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    As far as I am concerned, SLA's are the only real spells a caster has. You can empty your spell points way too fast using normal spells and so I only use them few and far between. SLA's are where it is at. The quality of casting class is based on its SLA's in my opinion (along with whatever it can cast a no spell point cost like a warlocks basic blasting attack). I would like to see a ton of SLA's for Archmage myself. The more the better.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    As far as I am concerned, SLA's are the only real spells a caster has. You can empty your spell points way too fast using normal spells and so I only use them few and far between. SLA's are where it is at.
    Sure. But that is kind of the problem IMO. We have a **** load of spells available as Wizard, but only use a few in the form of SLAs. SLAs became the bread and butter of DDO, which is good for DPS meters, but bad for all other spells and bad for the feeling of being a Wizard.

    For example, instead of getting 3 force SLAs as Evocation Archmage, I'd rather getting an ability that reduces the cost of Magic Missiles, Chain Missiles and Force Missiles by 50%, and also allow free metamagic for these spells. This way we don't need to add MORE versions of existing spells in the form of SLAs, and can instead boost a range of EXISTING spells.

  7. #7
    Community Member CSQ's Avatar
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    Unless they really compensated for meta magic costs and spell points, it would be really hard to make Wizard work without SLAs because of the way meta magics work. SLAs help casters economize, and Wizards are one of the classes that need that the most. Unlike Clerics, who are full casters but typically not as thirsty for SP because they wear a bunch of hats and can use the pointy end of a stick decently well, and Sorc/FvS who have huge SP pools, Wizards are most likely to need more SP. Changing this without taking away from Sorc/FvS, though, is the problem. If you give Wizards a tree that gives them Sorc/FvS gimmick of tons of SP, then they're basically just Sorcs with slower spells- the SP pool limitation compensates for Wizards being able to know any spell they could possibly need for a given situation and being able to readily switch them at shrines/taverns.

    Basically, Archmage has been, so far, specialized spells from your cores (so 5 SLAs) and then two force SLAs for a total of 7 SLAs. This gives Wizards seven cheap spells, though admittedly five of them are tied to multi selectors that may give you some garbage choices for spells besides the one/two/three you want from your school of choice. This gives Wizards a cheap, but potentially very powerful, arsenal of a few selected spells and then a much more expensive but robust set of spells that they could switch out at shrines. This is somewhat similar to Artificer, but Arti has a very limited spell list, so they don't really compare quite the same way, especially since they're not full casters.

    If I'm not entirely off base here, that's really the purpose of Archmage- to give Wizards SLAs. Just like Pale Master is pretty unique, Archmage is something that plays up Wizard's strengths- diverse casting abilities, the ability to make certain spells hit like trucks, etc. If I were to see any change, I would like to let you pick from different schools, so you could pick a bunch of cool spells that you want and build up DCs across different schools as well. Maybe I'm alone on that, though.
    I primarily play Zunzyne Siegemaker, and am the guild master of Ares Macrotechnology on Ghallanda.
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  8. #8
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    [QUOTE=lppmor;6245464]Sure. But that is kind of the problem IMO. We have a **** load of spells available as Wizard, but only use a few in the form of SLAs. SLAs became the bread and butter of DDO, which is good for DPS meters, but bad for all other spells and bad for the feeling of being a Wizard.

    For example, instead of getting 3 force SLAs as Evocation Archmage, I'd rather getting an ability that reduces the cost of Magic Missiles, Chain Missiles and Force Missiles by 50%, and also allow free metamagic for these spells. This way we don't need to add MORE versions of existing spells in the form of SLAs, and can instead boost a range of EXISTING spells.[/QUOTE

    So basically you want them to make your spellbook spells into SLAs? That's what the SLAs do, they take existing spells and they make them cost less and have free metamagics. Just don't memorize them in your spell book to reduce duplication. I disagree with your take on this 100%. How is it bad for all other spells and bad for the "feeling of being a wizard?" Yeah, this doesn't make any sense at all.

  9. #9
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    What I would care for at Archmage revamp.

    Displacement, Clouds, Lightning spells; somehow arcane self healing as SLAs. Also a familiar of sort.





    Some funny dance of avoidance mechanics !

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kutalp View Post
    What I would care for at Archmage revamp.

    Displacement, Clouds, Lightning spells; somehow arcane self healing as SLAs. Also a familiar of sort.





    Some funny dance of avoidance mechanics !
    Tom always struck me as more of a druid, but whatever.

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    What would really be crazy? If all the spells worked. As in, actually functioned in the game. As in, actually being useful in the game.

    What if, and I know this is just silly, a player looked at the available list of spells and had trouble deciding which to use because they were all so good?

    --

    Nah, forget about it. Lets look forward to the next divine martial arcane class for sale, a repeating crossbow wielding steam-powered robot. The twist? Instead of bolts, it shoots small metallic projectiles that have self-contained propellant.

  12. #12
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    Sort of out of D&D and more in to Tolkien fantasy but yeah sounds like a semi Arcane/semi Nature caster. Same for Radagast and some of those names there.

    ( I sense a hidden Bardic iconism there with their specialities,character and roles at the realm )

    About avoidance mechanics and spells and schools. I agree with you...It is a long story.

  13. #13
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    AM is the purest caster tree for Wizards, so it should focus on what pure casters need: DC, spellpower, spell crit, and SLAs. Of those, I think crit and SLAs are the most important. DC and Spellpower are already widely available, and if AM just became Mini Magister, I think it'd be boring and a missed opportunity. Spell crit could be a huge multiplicative channel for Wiz DPS output - something to match up with Sorc Savant trees - and I think it fits thematically that an Archmage's spells would crit more often.

    SLAs exist because pure casters need an "auto attack" equivalent - something that can be spammed in rotation without being so SP heavy that you cant sustain it through an entire quest, especially since metas are de facto required. Melee caster hybrids (ie EKs) have an actual meaningful attack they can use, but a pure caster Archmage would need something to use...so absolutely I think AM should be rich in SLAs for your selected schools. They just need to be better ones more useful in the game as it is today, comparable to other SLA type options for other classes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    AM is the purest caster tree for Wizards, so it should focus on what pure casters need: DC, spellpower, spell crit, and SLAs. Of those, I think crit and SLAs are the most important. DC and Spellpower are already widely available, and if AM just became Mini Magister, I think it'd be boring and a missed opportunity. Spell crit could be a huge multiplicative channel for Wiz DPS output - something to match up with Sorc Savant trees - and I think it fits thematically that an Archmage's spells would crit more often.

    SLAs exist because pure casters need an "auto attack" equivalent - something that can be spammed in rotation without being so SP heavy that you cant sustain it through an entire quest, especially since metas are de facto required. Melee caster hybrids (ie EKs) have an actual meaningful attack they can use, but a pure caster Archmage would need something to use...so absolutely I think AM should be rich in SLAs for your selected schools. They just need to be better ones more useful in the game as it is today, comparable to other SLA type options for other classes.
    Exactly this. I'd only add that perhaps the tree needs significantly stronger SLA's somewhere seeing as how much of what is currently available for each school is just fluff.

  15. #15
    Community Member Zuldar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSQ View Post
    Unless they really compensated for meta magic costs and spell points
    Maybe have metamagic add a cooldown to the spell with stronger metamagics adding a longer cooldown. Than enhancements/items could reduce how much time any metamagic adds to the cooldown. Wizards having more spell slots could simply cast different spells in the meantime which they could afford since spells would be cheaper.
    Chaotic evil means never having to say you're sorry.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by lppmor View Post
    Playing my Pale Master I already have 3 SLAs plus a HUGE amount of spells. The amount of spells is actually insane. It's not by chance that D&D 4th and 5th editions decided to shrink the Wizard spell list.

    So, thinking about the coming Archmage revamp, I really don't think more SLAs would be good for a Wizard's life.. yet I understand Archmage currently is based on school SLAs.

    So, my question for you guys (and Devs) is:

    Can Archmage become something else other than an SLA horder?
    Can it be instead a jack-of-all-trades caster? Maybe focusing on metamagic, extra spell points, spell points regeneration, etc?
    Or at least grant bonuses to specific schools/spells, but without adding more SLAs..
    So because your PM has too many SLAs you want other wizards to not have any? There are many ppl that play wizard without PM tree and vice versa. Archangel should be chock full of SLAs among other things.

  17. #17
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    I'd like to see the tree changed so that at core 1 you choose a school. The entire tree should key off of this choice, be it extra boosts to that school (say 1/2/3 spell pen with an extra 1 spell pen at 3 for spells of your school) or selector abilities that are school specific (maybe a summon at T5 that boosts spell casting). The capstone should have some sort of school specific boost or boosts in it, be it spell point reductions, free quickening, extra spell pen, bonus damage, or what have you (different and appropriate for each school). You don't want to cripple the other schools, but boost the chosen school.

    Maybe also have spells cost 2% less per core ability that you have (at least spells in your school).

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hydian View Post
    I'd like to see the tree changed so that at core 1 you choose a school. The entire tree should key off of this choice, be it extra boosts to that school (say 1/2/3 spell pen with an extra 1 spell pen at 3 for spells of your school) or selector abilities that are school specific (maybe a summon at T5 that boosts spell casting). The capstone should have some sort of school specific boost or boosts in it, be it spell point reductions, free quickening, extra spell pen, bonus damage, or what have you (different and appropriate for each school). You don't want to cripple the other schools, but boost the chosen school.

    Maybe also have spells cost 2% less per core ability that you have (at least spells in your school).
    That's more or less my view.

    In current state, you choose to be an Evoker and as result you are obligated to like Force spells through the SLA missiles. That's why I'm against more SLAs. I want to specialize in Evocation but I want the freedom to choose my preferend Evocation spells. Reducing the costs of all spells of the chosen school would be great.

    Same with Enchantment school. If I choose to be an Enchanter, instead of just gaining SLA Hypnotism and SLA Dance Sphere, I'd rather have all my enchants to last longer, cost less, and even having extra effects.

    Necromancy.. if I instakill something, I could drain some spell points or health. And so on..

    SLAs are pretty shallow IMO.
    Last edited by lppmor; 09-03-2019 at 11:55 AM.

  19. #19
    Community Member Kutalp's Avatar
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    Archmage, allright...


    - Archmage would certainly need a strong passive, stacking , ability that can not be dispelled to provide or at least to boost avoidance mechanics blurry/ghostly/dodge even good old Mirror image spell !

    - Passive, triggered and undispellable , meaningfull amount of % Temporary hitpoints that can renew itself without casting but may be toggling on (at least). There can be extra % hp and % sp and % to fortitude saves at T5 and Core or after lvl 12+ enhancements. The combination would bring avoidance and temproray hitpoints and extra %; instead of imitating the Divine healing or Negative healing.


    - By means of untyped magical effects, undispellible, Better MRR(%) but not PRR, Spell resistance (%)and physical dodge chance(%) and +1 reflex save for every T and core line (around +10 total reflex save at cap at lvl 20 character) , only while wearing robes.


    - Dispellible SLAs such as improved Haste like effect and improved Stoneskin like effect at lvl 8+ and 12+ levels.


    - No cost Expand, Extend, Quicken at T5 and at lvl 12+(?)


    - Undispellible, Immunity to level drain at lvl 8 Archmage and % resist vs Negative spells and non harmfull ability score gimping spells, which improves through Archmage enhancements and Wizard levels.


    - Undispellible, Passive physical and magical reflection effect which improves through wizard levels and enhancement tree with certain amount of %. Reflects any type of damage including untyped damage to the opponent with % chance as Bane damage. Does not avoid the damage taken. ( Take that Beholders and Champions! ) Requires Staves and Archmage 9+


    - Also as I may be repeating myself, Displacement, Glitterdust, Clouds, Lightning like no aim SLAs that has balanced offensive and defensive fast paced mechanics ,aoe and no or at least very low cost . Shadow walk/Dimension door/Teleport like SLA. Invisiblity like SLA. These can be dispellible.


    - Spell casting DC calculated over Character level. Requires 12+ Archmage and Staves.


    - After level 9+ Archmage. An unkillable and useful Familiar that can renew sp non stop , with % chance and % amount of total SP pool. Some boost to Spell penetration with % chance which improves through wizard level. This is much better than bursting spell points total and loading Maximize, Empower and anytihng that turns a Wizard in to a wannabe Sorcerer.

    Familair may come earlier with smaller chances of spell penetration. SP renewal shall be after lvl 9+ Archmage and shall improve with % after that level. To keep it unique for Archmage.


    - Meaningfull boost to good old summons after level 8+ Archmage ( I love Fiendish bat for all levels ) by means of meat shielding and distracting flying or running around the place , at least.


    - A meaningful boost to wand and scroll use with extra DC and non skill based UMD chances but also faster cooldowns for recasting through scrolls for Archmage after level 8+


    - Level 8+ Archmage Your Staff deals Untyped damage instead of its base damage. The amount of damage is not effected. No extra to hit chances.


    - Powerfull Spell combination SLAs that can auto cast groups of spells instant by increasing SLA cost with a meaningful amount. This can be powerfull but also dangerous (and funny).

    % chance SLA with drag and trigger similar to weapon set at hot bar. Funny side effects like self jump and feather fall or pop up a grease spell and low level summon ( dispells your higher level summon ) and some other ridiclous results; instead of casting the original Spell combination set, may pop up to make everyone smile. After lvl 12+ Archmage and requires Staves.


    - Archmage 8+ Beholders (Aberrations) as natural enemy. Extra to hit and bane damage with staves and spell dc and spell pen against Beholders (Aberrations).


    - My humble opinon.



  20. #20
    Community Member FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    If SLAs providing even more things to hotbar is a problem, maybe a significant reduction in the SP cost (including if metamagics are applied) for spells from the chosen school could be a possibility? Since it's possible to have a school-specialised archmage without taking any spell focus feats (i tend towards this approach on a nuker type since those spells aren't as DC critical), maybe if you have the focus feat for the school the archmage enhancement could increase the SP discount, encouraging people to spend the feats to specialise.
    I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was, now what's it is weird and scary to me.

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