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  1. #1
    Founder & Super Hero Arkat's Avatar
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    Default How to Stop Driving People Away from the Game (No Politics Version)

    This post is not mine. It came from a thread that was locked because of some political language in the original post.

    I thought the post was basically pretty good so I am re-posting it here with some spelling and grammatical mistake fixes. I have also removed the offending political language and slightly altered the end of the post to reflect a conclusion that made sense in light of the removal of the political language.

    To be clear, I do not agree with *all* of the points made, but I felt the post was worthy of a discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by False_Gods View Post
    With the new success of the hardcore server it’s hard not to recognize an influx of players and player activity. We can all agree that a lot of the 'charm' that we all first became enamored with has returned.

    With that, we are starting to see a rise of "how tos" and “instructionals.” Serious minded players feel that with the stakes being higher the chances also increase of them ending up in a group with someone who maybe doesn't play or approach the game in the same way.

    People are free to have their own approach to the game. The problem arises when boundaries are crossed, others are not respected, and others are made to feel like the 'charm' of the game is gone and they would rather not deal with the aggravation of dealing with pushy players. What ends up happening then is that many of the players who also were more moderate and flexible don't want to be ostracized and then end up also avoiding those players who they otherwise might enjoy playing with. Who we are left with are the pushy players and maybe half of the moderate players while the other half the player population leave the game because its 'not for them'. And this is because pushy players need to learn about respect. Frankly, they need to learn that although they may have analyzed the game to death, there is a lot they need to learn about respecting other people's space. That means allowing people to play the game their way and not imposing their approach to the game on other people.

    Unfortunately, this has already resulted in the player population dropping by thousands of what it would otherwise be. And yes, I am 100% serious. I am one of the founding players and I have witnessed the evolution (of the game and the game's population) over the last 14 years.

    So let’s to it I am going to give you a simple method on how to stop inadvertently killing the game's population.

    1) "Integrity" of the game world. Imagine the game world is crystal clear tropical waters untouched by man where life thrives and nature abounds. Imagine a large cess-pump is then built by people who move in and every time someone talks over voice chat, that pump opens up and spills raw sewage into the water.

    If it is a life and death situation in the heat of combat, then yes, you are excused to go to the bathroom in the water by projecting *your* voice over *everyone's* game. Remember, once you start talking, people are no longer playing the game they were playing. They are no longer playing in Stormreach. The atmospheric music is cut off, the ambience is gone... the "spell" is broken. Once *you* start talking, the game is over, the spell is over, we are now playing *your* game. Your voice is now cutting through everything. For the love of god, please recognize that if you want to have a chat room or play a card game where everyone is first and foremost talking, and the game is secondary, do it in another channel. If you have a hard time understanding this, I am sorry to say it, but *you* have a serious problem with people and consideration.

    Just try to recognize the game with voice chat is 100% entirely different from actually playing DDO. Voice enabled is a shallow game where people have the need to "fill" the silence with stupid comments, their "laughing" that on some banal level they think is adding to the game, as if people are playing the game just to socialize with that person. For the love of god, if you find yourself laughing over voice chat, *try* to get it through your head that you are replacing the entertainment of the game with what you consider to be entertaining. Would you get up in a crowded movie theatre and go up on stage and start doing a stand-up routine when people are trying to watch the movie they paid for? Obviously not, so please don't *laugh* over voice chat.

    The best advice I can give you is to equate voice chat with a toilet. Please be considerate. Unless you are about to die and it is in the middle of combat, have mercy on everyone and type whatever you need to say. It is 1000% more considerate.

    #2: Stop invading people's personal space with your approach to the game. When you group with people in the public groups there is a very, very simple rule that you can follow, that you may have a very hard time understanding how it makes sense, but if you just do it, you will stop killing off the population in DDO like you have done over the past 14 years. It’s very simple: Play your character and act like you haven’t done the dungeon before. Not everyone is trying to get through the dungeon the fastest, or most efficiently... and even if they are or they aren't, it doesn't matter. Just do it. Do not talk, do not announce traps.

    Now it’s important to recognize here that you’re not being asked to babysit new players. That’s not what this about. What this is about is making other players uncomfortable by being too pushy with your approach. By just playing your character in silence (in other words not communicating anything based on your prior knowledge) and just *doing* it, they might die and yes you might end up soloing or duoing the dungeon while a few of the players are left behind. But the key here is that you are not making people uncomfortable. Everything stays 'low-key'. Yes that new or unexperienced player may die in the trap, but the charm is not going to be gone, the spell is not going to be broken, and they are going to be happy continuing to play the game. It’s called learning how to give other people the space they have a right to without imposing your approach or 'your way' on people.

    As I said before, because of people's failure to understand this important point, many players in the past have simply been driven away from the game. This has also resulted in a major dissatisfaction of many of the players who now don't have many players to play with because those players were driven away because they were made to feel uncomfortable (like they'd rather just "not deal with it"). I am sorry to say it but the pushy instructional players have basically nearly killed this game. The Hardcore league seems to have recently brought some of that "magic" back to the game and that is the reason I am now bringing this to people's attention.

    Be considerate. If you are that good, remember when you join a group, your group is part of the anomaly. Act "as if" you are in a real role playing game. You don't *know* the other characters... you *think* you do but you really don't know them, just like you don't know the skill of the other players or their prior experience with the dungeon. To "talk" to or communicate with them player to player is to do them a disservice. You have basically invaded the "space" of *their* game. You have violated the integrity of their game experience, whether you are aware of it or not, because you don't know how they approach the game or what how they play their character. You have basically *devalued* them as a player and basically stated that your time in doing the dungeon for the 100th time in the most efficient way possible is more important than whatever their experience may be. What you have done is you have insulted them, you have broken the "spell" of the game and the "charm" of the game has worn off which then causes them to leave the game and say the game "is not for me". Then many of your fellow players who take a more moderate approach (i.e. they can play with all kinds of people) are left with no one to play with (or as is the case with DDO, a massively reduced game population). Many of the moderate players either just leave the game as well or they learn to just be quiet about it and not stand up to the "control tyrants" (i.e. pushy instructional players) because they think they will be ostracized as well for taking what might be considered an unorthodox approach to the game (by the analytical, controlling types who take it upon themselves to *help* everyone complete the dungeons in the most efficient way possible because their time is so valuable).

    The bottom line is top disrespecting other people's game space with the assertion that your time is more valuable than their experience. If you group with other people, be quiet and "just do it." Act like it’s your first time in the dungeon. If you need other's to cooperate with your idea or strategy, if at all possible, type it in chat and put it in a way that doesn't devalue the game experience for everyone by making it obvious that you've done it 100's of times before and know how things turn out. Learn to play the game the way it was meant to be played and respect and value everyone's game experience and not run people over because your time is too valuable.

    I know that many of the people here are analytical control types and that is the way that *they* enjoy the game. And I'm not saying they aren’t entitled to enjoy the game as they choose. What I *am* saying is wrong is to de-value or ostracize the myriad of other ways to approach the game and act like your way is the *only* way to approach the game.

    "Instructing" people on how to play the game because your time is valuable is no different than stating for a fact that certain people are "jerks." Start to give people the respect they deserve and treat their space and time with respect and hopefully we will continue to see the growth of the game with more people coming back and staying with the introduction of the hardcore server.
    Last edited by Arkat; 08-23-2019 at 01:34 PM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    While I agree that there are people who talk to much, how is the quoted post not hypocritical?

    Don't talk, don't use your experience, don't teach.... because you might negatively affect someone else's gameplay.

    What about the person who enjoys talking to people? What about the people who enjoy teaching and sharing knowledge? Is their experience not as valuable?

    So when I put up an LFM for R3 Sharn and people don't talk and coordinate, can I say that they are ruining my experience because they are not using voice chat to our combined tactical advantage?

    A few years ago people were yelling at vets for not teaching new players the game. Now that vets are doing so it is suddenly "ruining" the experience???
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    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    I'm confused too. I could understand if its new content, or you know you are with a brand new player to give them the space to explore and get "first hand" or a discovery experience. But if you are mostly with static friends and guildies do you always still RP your characters? I RP with my daughter because that's what she finds fun in DDO but otherwise with static friends and even groups where we let a couple PUGs in to fill there is usually general friendly chatter or tactical chatter in the case of the few raids I'm willing to do. Even when we play PnP we aren't always in character. We fourth wall break like Deadpool... a lot.

    I guess I had no awareness that friendly conversations (at least I assume that's what the "laughter" comment was about) were turning away role players. I haven't ran across many in ages, and they mostly spent their time in the taverns talking to each other rather than questing it seemed at the time.

    I do wholeheartedly agree that when some members of the group are on XP potion timers their play becomes more perfunctory and they loose interest in having fun in order to be more efficient. Sometimes this makes them less courteous or patient with other members of the group that are not being as efficient.
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    Community Member Quikster's Avatar
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    Can't I just play the way I want too, and you can play the way you want to? If you want to dungeon crawl, don't join a LFM that says R1, Elite, Zerg, TR Train, Leveling, etc. I don't join LFM's that say Normal, Learning the Quest, Flower Sniffing, RP, ETC. If I get into someone else's group, I usually do as they ask. Then when the quest is over, I leave. I figure that's respectful enough. Now I need to change how I play all the time?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkat View Post
    This post is not mine. It came from a thread that was locked because of some political language in the original post.

    I thought the post was basically pretty good so I am re-posting it here with some spelling and grammatical mistake fixes. I have also removed the offending political language and slightly altered the end of the post to reflect a conclusion that made sense in light of the removal of the political language.

    To be clear, I do not agree with *all* of the points made, but I felt the post was worthy of a discussion.
    1. I am so very glad the original post was promptly reported; and that Cordovan shut it down for the obvious reasons, and did so before the weekend started.

    2. I sort of question the repost, if only because the "original" political content suggests a somewhat skewed perspective ("100's of millions of Americans" …).

    3. At a guess, the poor social behavior of a limited number of players amounts for but a fraction of player loss in DDO. Maybe around 10%, at the very most?

    4. Two words from the original post that merit consideration: "Be considerate."

  6. #6
    Community Member False_Gods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andu_Indorin View Post
    1. I am so very glad the original post was promptly reported; and that Cordovan shut it down for the obvious reasons, and did so before the weekend started.

    2. I sort of question the repost, if only because the "original" political content suggests a somewhat skewed perspective ("100's of millions of Americans" …).

    3. At a guess, the poor social behavior of a limited number of players amounts for but a fraction of player loss in DDO. Maybe around 10%, at the very most?

    4. Two words from the original post that merit consideration: "Be considerate."

    Obvious reasons? The post was shut down most likely due to an auto flag when a certain invidivual was named in the post. The post has absolutely nothing to do with that and it was only brought up at the very end of the post as a metaphor comparing certain individuals with certain opinions presenting their *opinions* as facts and how this is similar to people who approach the game a certain way assuming that everyone has the same approach and as a result disrespecting (either inadvertantly out of ignorance, or advertantly because they just don't care and feel their time is more valuable than others'), which has ultimately caused the game to lose a large section of the population over the years, because those people (who take a more fun, relaxed approach to the game didn't feel comfortable playing or being ostracized by the other types)

    What you call "poor social behavior" is as wide description as there are different types of players. That is the point of the post. What you consider helping someone, many other players may consider extremely poor social behavior. And the person helping that other person may or may not have good intentions... based on whether they have any clue that other ways of approaching the game even exist. That is the point of the post, to bring up discussion on the matter so that there is more understanding across the board.

    What people need to know is that many, many people have left the game over the years because pushy controlling types have taken over, and many people would rather simply not play the game than be labeled as 'weird' by an aggressive, pushy, inconsiderate section of the population that really has no idea how an actual role playing game is supposed to work.

    I am not saying there is one way of playing the game. Everyone is entitled to approach and enjoy the game however they like, so long as they respect others. What I am saying is that there would be many, many more players playing the game today if the pushy, controlling, aggressive, inconsiderate, controlling types stopped ostracizing people who do not approach or are not willing to approach the game in the same 'efficient' manner as they do. Furthermore, there are many 'moderate' types who have simply been quiet about this for fear of being ostracized themselves, and what I am telling you now (whether you want to believe it or not) is that this has resulted in a massive reduction of the game's population, that is now being felt by everyone on the regular servers.

    If people were A) more considerate and B) had more of an understanding that there is more than one way to approach the game and C) had more respect for other people we would not be in this boat with all the other servers being dead.
    Last edited by False_Gods; 08-24-2019 at 02:17 AM.

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    I love the analogy of people's voices being the equivalent of polluting the water. I couldn't agree more. What is worse is some people *only* talk so if you don't have your game set to hear their terrible voice you will never be able to communicate with them. I miss the old days when MMO's didn't have built in voice chat.

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    because pushy controlling types have taken over
    I am not asking you to use comms, you are asking me to stop using them.

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    Community Member False_Gods's Avatar
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    Now.. back to focusing on the solution. I know that many players are kind of seeing this as being forced to accept crummy players or people who approach the game in a haphazard way or what many might consider to be 'dumb' players who join a reaper group without having the proper experience/knowledge thus putting everyone else's characters at risk.

    What I am saying is that there is a somewhat universal solution to this and that is to treat everyone in the group kind of like how you treat the other variables in the game world that arent' under your control. The key here is that by doing this you are also respecting their 'player space' and affirming your own 'player space'. The result being that regardless to the outcome in game, people aren't going to walk away from the game feeling 'less than' and this will result in an overall much healthier game environment for all.

    I think Rush said it best: Show Don't Tell. Just do it. Start to actually play your character from your character's perspective and it will enrich the overall game environment making it a healthier and more vibrant place for all. Even those who are still learning.

    I hope it made sense and thank you to Arcat for opening up the thread for further discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by False_Gods View Post
    What people need to know is that many, many people have left the game over the years because pushy controlling types have taken over, and many people would rather simply not play the game than be labeled as 'weird' by an aggressive, pushy, inconsiderate section of the population that really has no idea how an actual role playing game is supposed to work.
    This has not been my experience on the servers I have played. I have certainly encountered a very limited number that do fit your description, I can see the validity of your point. I tend to avoid grouping with such players a second time; and I have on rare occasions told them to shut the **** up after they have joined a group mid-quest.

    Perhaps on the servers you play most, more people have left the game because of such "helpful" people, rather than blacklist and avoid grouping with them. My experience has been one where the recreational players have left because of specific changes to the game.

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    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    or you know you are with a brand new player to give them the space to explore and get "first hand" or a discovery experience.
    How many new players are there ?

    None.

    And that's why some people assume everyone knows everything.
    "You are a Tiefling. And a Cleric, with the Domain of the Sun. Doesn't that contradict each other ?" "No, all my friends are playing evil. I found that so boring that I decided to be on the good side. And, besides, Sun and Fire, where is the difference, really ?"

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    Community Member False_Gods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andu_Indorin View Post
    This has not been my experience on the servers I have played. I have certainly encountered a very limited number that do fit your description, I can see the validity of your point. I tend to avoid grouping with such players a second time; and I have on rare occasions told them to shut the **** up after they have joined a group mid-quest.

    Perhaps on the servers you play most, more people have left the game because of such "helpful" people, rather than blacklist and avoid grouping with them. My experience has been one where the recreational players have left because of specific changes to the game.
    Believe me I have been here since the beginning and there used to be a massive number of people who enjoy playing the game and grouping in the public groups without taking it so seriously. Those people are now gone. First they try to go to another server, and then they eventually disappear completely because dealing with scrutiny in public groups is just not worth it and they decide the game is not for them.

    People need to learn the concept of walking lightly in the forest. Many people *were* here to enjoy the game and learn it and experiment and the enjoyment for them was finding things out for themselves, experimenting, and being able to join public groups without coming across someone to "help" them by telling them how to build their character, how to play their character, how to get through the dungeon the quickest. Those people are now gone because the enjoyment of the game was gone. The negativity they encountered was simply not worth it and the charm of the game wore off, and as a result the whole idea of "soloing" everything came along. Moderate players at the same time learned to be silent lest they also be 'classified' as 'dumb' people and find that they were also avoided by what would soon become the vocal majority.

    Now there is a huge section of the population missing who simply wanted to group with other people in the public groups and learn the game at their own pace. What power gamers apparently do not get is that a big part of the game is figuring things out for yourself, experimenting and trying new things. The whole game does not revolve around finding a build on the forum and learning the most efficient way of doing things to make sure you don't accidentally waste someone's time in a public group.
    Last edited by False_Gods; 08-24-2019 at 07:15 AM.
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    Is objecting to voice chat really a common issue at all? That's the first time I've heard it. I know now everyone uses it, but I never got the impression there was a significant group of people that was rabidly against it. Much less a major factor in driving people away from the game.


    The whole rant seems really idiosyncratic. He's entitled to his opinion, but I don't think it's representative of anyone other than this one particular individual.
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    Quote Originally Posted by False_Gods View Post
    Believe me I have been here since the beginning and there used to be a cabbage number of people who enjoy playing the game and grouping in the public groups without taking it so seriously. Those people are now gone. First they try to go to another server, and then they eventually cabbage completely because dealing with scrutiny in public groups is just not worth it and they decide cabbage.

    People need to learn the concept of walking lightly in the forest. Cabbage people *were* here to enjoy the game and learn it and experiment and the enjoyment for them was finding things out for themselves, experimenting, and being able to join public groups without coming across someone to "help" them by telling them how to build their character, how to play their character, how to get through the dungeon the quickest. Those people are now cabbage because the enjoyment of the game was gone. The negativity they encountered was simply not worth it and the charm of the game wore off, and as a result the whole idea of "soloing" cabbage came along. Moderate players at the same time learned to be silent lest they also be 'classified' as cabbage and find that they were also avoided by what would soon become the vocal majority.

    Now there is a cabbage section of the population missing who simply wanted to group with other people in the public groups and learn the game at their own pace. What power gamers apparently do not get is that a big part of the game is figuring things out for yourself, experimenting and trying new things. The whole game does not revolve around finding a build on the forum and learning the most efficient way of doing things to make sure you don't accidentally waste someone's time in a public group.
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    Quote Originally Posted by False_Gods View Post
    Believe me I have been here since the beginning and there used to be a massive number of people who enjoy playing the game and grouping in the public groups without taking it so seriously. Those people are now gone. First they try to go to another server, and then they eventually disappear completely because dealing with scrutiny in public groups is just not worth it and they decide the game is not for them.

    People need to learn the concept of walking lightly in the forest. Many people *were* here to enjoy the game and learn it and experiment and the enjoyment for them was finding things out for themselves, experimenting, and being able to join public groups without coming across someone to "help" them by telling them how to build their character, how to play their character, how to get through the dungeon the quickest. Those people are now gone because the enjoyment of the game was gone. The negativity they encountered was simply not worth it and the charm of the game wore off, and as a result the whole idea of "soloing" everything came along. Moderate players at the same time learned to be silent lest they also be 'classified' as 'dumb' people and find that they were also avoided by what would soon become the vocal majority.

    Now there is a huge section of the population missing who simply wanted to group with other people in the public groups and learn the game at their own pace. What power gamers apparently do not get is that a big part of the game is figuring things out for yourself, experimenting and trying new things. The whole game does not revolve around finding a build on the forum and learning the most efficient way of doing things to make sure you don't accidentally waste someone's time in a public group.
    I agree with almost all that you have said here. My principal difference is the belief that the poor implementation of reaper, which badly fragmented the gaming population, did more to drive recreational players away than those players who insist that they know what is best for everyone. Nonetheless, your points DO have merit.

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    Community Member Oliphant's Avatar
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    1. Voice is charming and helpful. Don't overdo it a.k.a. be rude.
    2. Follow the star. It's a temporary role, nothing personal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by False_Gods View Post
    Now.. back to focusing on the solution.
    Back up a bit first. You're coming off a tad authoritarian, and I don't remember voting for you in any election. Have you considered that people on the other side of this have a perspective as valid as yours?

    What I am saying is that there is a somewhat universal solution to this and that is to treat everyone in the group kind of like how you treat the other variables in the game world that arent' under your control. The key here is that by doing this you are also respecting their 'player space' and affirming your own 'player space'. The result being that regardless to the outcome in game, people aren't going to walk away from the game feeling 'less than' and this will result in an overall much healthier game environment for all.
    Sounds kind of Social Justicey, don't want any of that in my chocolate, thanks. And I notice you've assumed the role of spokesperson for the thousands of gamers who have left. Do they know? Did they approve? Are you championing THEIR cause, or are you using them as props to further your own personal cause? Because I left the game years ago - over the Curse and Winter Festival nerfs, it had nothing to do with comms or rude zergers. And I knew the new players, because I had alts parked at various levels to run "newbie friendly, no zerg" groups through quests like Gwylans, Tear and Tempest Spine.

    Show Don't Tell. Just do it. Start to actually play your character from your character's perspective and it will enrich the overall game environment making it a healthier and more vibrant place for all. Even those who are still learning.
    Upthread you complained about telling others how to play. Don't you see this as telling others how to play? Have you read Chesteron's Fence? It's short, so here:

    "In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”

    This paradox rests on the most elementary common sense. The gate or fence did not grow there. It was not set up by somnambulists who built it in their sleep. It is highly improbable that it was put there by escaped lunatics who were for some reason loose in the street. Some person had some reason for thinking it would be a good thing for somebody. And until we know what the reason was, we really cannot judge whether the reason was reasonable. It is extremely probable that we have overlooked some whole aspect of the question, if something set up by human beings like ourselves seems to be entirely meaningless and mysterious. There are reformers who get over this difficulty by assuming that all their fathers were fools; but if that be so, we can only say that folly appears to be a hereditary disease. But the truth is that nobody has any business to destroy a social institution until he has really seen it as an historical institution. If he knows how it arose, and what purposes it was supposed to serve, he may really be able to say that they were bad purposes, or that they have since become bad purposes, or that they are purposes which are no longer served. But if he simply stares at the thing as a senseless monstrosity that has somehow sprung up in his path, it is he and not the traditionalist who is suffering from an illusion." — G.K. Chesterton


    See, other people may be mean to you, but I think you are acting in good faith and simply don't see the other side's pov, and maybe a little blind to how controlling you come off.

    Think it over, trying to come up with arguments FOR why people prefer voice comms. In the Marines, clear comms was our most lethal weapon.

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    I still remember you, Memnir. But I can't recall if that's a good thing or a bad thing. LOL
    Last edited by Fenrisulven7; 08-24-2019 at 02:23 PM.

  20. #20
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrisulven7 View Post
    I still remember you, Memnir. But I can't recall if that's a good thing or a bad thing. LOL
    “Too much of anything is bad, but too much good whiskey is barely enough.” ~ Mark Twain

    .58098.

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