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  1. #1
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Default Question for the level 20 reward on the Hardcore server,

    because I just hit the heroic experience cap on the hardcore server and I was actually able to test it, this question comes up.
    Even with enough experience for level 20, I'm not allowed to claim the level 20 reward.
    I have to take level 20 but currently, I cannot do this if I dont want to lose all possible favor for level 14-19 quests.

    Mortality Says on the first selection menu "Tell me if I have achieved enough Expirence to be remembered."
    If you hit the hard cap for the heroic experience on a character in DDO you have actually enough experience for level 20.
    It is at least debatable if you have to be actually level 20 or if it is enough to have earned enough expirence for this goal.
    In my opinion, it should be in doubt in the favor of the player and there is no need for this additional risk.
    Not to mention that I would like to actually claim my reward now and maybe use it, in my opinion, it is earned at this point. (I can talk of course only for me but I can imagine the majority sees it in the same way at the moment they reach this point)

    The question is if this additional difficulty and risk and delay are really intended by the developers or just only something they have not thought of?
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  2. #2
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    Seems pretty clear in the event details...

    Reach Character Level 20 - Commemorative Hardcore League Cloak cosmetic

    Doesn't say anything about reaching max heroic xp, it says reach level 20 - you haven't done that yet so you can't get the reward yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    We are fixing this bug by deleting this ability from the game

  3. #3
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    Well do lvl 14s and you can take 20.
    You just won't be able to run on reaper.

  4. #4
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockHeavy View Post
    Seems pretty clear in the event details...

    Reach Character Level 20 - Commemorative Hardcore League Cloak cosmetic

    Doesn't say anything about reaching max heroic xp, it says reach level 20 - you haven't done that yet so you can't get the reward yet.
    I know what the current technically demand is but If you are at this point you will maybe see it different when you are aiming to reach 5k favor at the very end.
    Mortality says at first "Tell me if I have achieved enough Expirence to be remembered." and this also tells you that the important point to earn the reward is enough experience.
    That Mortality tells you thereafter that you have to be technically level 20 means not necessarily that the developers want us to have a big delay and additionally level of risk to lose this available reward.
    The reason can be just only that they have not thought of this issue at this point and if they would thought of it, they would have decided in favor of the player.
    Therefore it is a rightful question in my opinion that should be answered at least so the players can plan accordingly.
    I just assume that the majority of players would like that they can claim their rewards at this point and then take the decision if they still want to go for 5k favor or not.
    I know if someone complains on this forum against something it causes often already a first negative reaction because he appears as some kind of dissatisfied troublemaker who wants the developers to do some work for his personal advantage.
    But please see that I'm just one of a few who are already at this point and therefore this problem is earlier actual for me.
    And that I bring this up here might be in the interest of much more DDO players and even of the developers who have now still the chance to act before many more players are affected in a negative way by this.
    Hopefully, no one missed his reward yet for this reason, as far as I know not.
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  5. #5
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    I applaud you for getting that far on the server, well done. I could never do that well or anything close to it.

    However, as someone not on the server and thus with no dog in the race, it seems absolutely logical that the reward is for actually being level 20 regardless of the wording. Anything else would just be wishful thinking. Similarly to not being able to use level 8 weapons just because I have enough xp for level 8 - I actually have to be (atleast) level 8. Entirely logical and reasonable.

    I can see why that is very inconvenient but then again it is a Hardcore server after. I hope you and the others playing hardcore continue to have fun even so.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    Well do lvl 14s and you can take 20.
    You just won't be able to run on reaper.
    Because you might not get the information already, there is an unannounced additional rule that applies not only for the reaper difficulty.
    You are not allowed yet to enter heroic quests when your character is 20 or higher.

    Therefore to do level 14s and 15s we have to stay at level 18 and 19 anyway and this means already a quite long time and additional risk before you are technically allowed to claim your basically already earned reward.
    But with this additional rule, you cannot even take this reward when you do 16s, 17s, 18s, and 19s quests.

    I can at least imagine this was not really the intention of the developers and also here they would have opted in favor of the player otherwise.

    And for level 16 17 18 and 18 quests on hardcore again...
    Also notice that you do this under the current rules with additional difficulty because you are not allowed to take at least the last class level 20 that belongs technically evidently to a heroic character.
    In Dungeons and Dragons and basically also in DDO a character is at level 21 epic and not in level 20.
    It is just an inconsistency in DDO that you can claim and use your Epic Destiny already in level 20.
    This inconsistency was until now in the favor of the player but here this is clearly a disadvantage to treat a character that is per D&D definition still heroic as epic.
    In DDO even more, because a pure class cannot use his heroic level 20 capstone enhancement.

    And just to mention it, the simple rule for reaper not to be allowed in heroic level quests at level 20 is for this reason also questionable and also maybe demands a change.
    Here the DDO rules take it not exactly enough, this was so far not a big problem because the majority of player did not care and take level 20 and ignore the remaining heroic quests.
    But if you start to care for it you should see that also here something is wrong in DDO in general and that not only on the hardcore server.

    Basically, the epic level in DDO should be shifted to level 21 and therefore you should have the advantage of your EDs at level 21 and higher.
    A compromise would be to allow a player to still activate the EDs at level 20 because they are used to it but treat the character as heroic until they do this.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    I applaud you for getting that far on the server, well done. I could never do that well or anything close to it.

    However, as someone not on the server and thus with no dog in the race, it seems absolutely logical that the reward is for actually being level 20 regardless of the wording. Anything else would just be wishful thinking. Similarly to not being able to use level 8 weapons just because I have enough xp for level 8 - I actually have to be (atleast) level 8. Entirely logical and reasonable.

    I can see why that is very inconvenient but then again it is a Hardcore server after. I hope you and the others playing hardcore continue to have fun even so.
    Sorry but this is obviously something different, to use an ML 8 level weapon in level 6 makes your character stronger but the cosmetic reward is not a balance issue of any sort.
    That's why your argument is baseless.
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  8. #8
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    The rules were very clear. You must claim what you earned and if you don't claim it and die you don't get it. That's true of favor and the level 20 reward. All you have to do is take 20 - fairly simple.

    If you choose to instead stay at 18 for rxp farming purposes that is a reasonable choice but it doesn't entitle you to the level 20 reward. The rxp cloak looks much better in my opinion anyhow.

  9. #9
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    The rules were very clear. You must claim what you earned and if you don't claim it and die you don't get it. That's true of favor and the level 20 reward. All you have to do is take 20 - fairly simple.

    If you choose to instead stay at 18 for rxp farming purposes that is a reasonable choice but it doesn't entitle you to the level 20 reward. The rxp cloak looks much better in my opinion anyhow.
    Sorry, but it is hard for me to explain the reason if you dont see it already by yourself.
    The point of being entitled to claim the reward for the cosmetic reward is to have earned enough experience for level 20.
    And if you have the "Maximum Heroic XP Achieved" in DDO you have exactly the needed experience points for level 20, you are not even short of one single point.
    And it is not any advantage that makes your character stronger in the still remaining 14-19 quests, it is just a reward that gives you a cosmetic cloak.
    The demand to technically level up to 20 and suffer the actual game technical disadvantages is not really required at this point.
    This is at least disputable and should in doubt decided in favor of the players.

    And also for you, it is on hardcore not only for reaper experience need to stay away from level 20, you also need that if you want to get the 5k favor reward.
    There is an unannounced additional rule for it that should be dropped or at least modified.
    Last edited by Chacka_DDO; 08-22-2019 at 05:10 AM.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
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  10. #10
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    The issue is easy to understand, even if not on the server. You explained it well right from the start.

    The best solution, imho, would be to allow level 20 chars to enter heroic level quests (except on reaper) as long as Epic Destinies are not activated. So, if the character has no twists and no points in the ED tree you can enter heroic level quests.

    I have no idea though if that is hard to code or not though.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    The issue is easy to understand, even if not on the server. You explained it well right from the start.

    The best solution, imho, would be to allow level 20 chars to enter heroic level quests (except on reaper) as long as Epic Destinies are not activated. So, if the character has no twists and no points in the ED tree you can enter heroic level quests.

    I have no idea though if that is hard to code or not though.
    This would certainly lessen the problem.
    If you ask me I think that this additional rule can be simply dropped on hardcore because the advantage from EDs is at least currently only theoretically.
    The developers simply overdo it at this point, in my opinion, the additional 4 level rule is enough here and certainly needed or favor is relatively meaningless.
    After all, the main source of additional difficulty on hardcore should only come from the risk of permadeath and NOT to make DDO in addition on hardcore more difficult as it is on the normal server.

    For characters who strive for reaper points, it can also remain on hardcore as it is on a normal server even if also here a change is in my opinion recommendable for DDO in general.
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  12. #12
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    It seems pretty clear the heroic lockout is not intended, or they would have said it from the start. It's obviously a bug due to them just copying the reaper tech for the lockout.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chacka_DDO View Post
    Sorry, but it is hard for me to explain the reason if you dont see it already by yourself.
    The point of being entitled to claim the reward for the cosmetic reward is to have earned enough experience for level 20.
    And if you have the "Maximum Heroic XP Achieved" in DDO you have exactly the needed experience points for level 20, you are not even short of one single point.
    And it is not any advantage that makes your character stronger in the still remaining 14-19 quests, it is just a reward that gives you a cosmetic cloak.
    The demand to technically level up to 20 and suffer the actual game technical disadvantages is not really required at this point.
    This is at least disputable and should in doubt decided in favor of the players.

    And also for you, it is on hardcore not only for reaper experience need to stay away from level 20, you also need that if you want to get the 5k favor reward.
    There is an unannounced additional rule for it that should be dropped or at least modified.
    No sympathy on this. If you want the reward claim 20 otherwise accept it's your choice.

  14. #14
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    They overlooked it. Understandable, imo but they should adapt it asap.
    Anyway, gz to 20 and "Renn Chaka, renn!"

    Cheers,
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    If they made this change do you really think it would be fair to those folks who have already achieved level 20 (possibly through expense of real money) knowing they would miss out on favor and have to TR and start again to achieve the favor side of things, and thus incurring more risk? You shoot for 20 (take the money now option) or hold out for more (push to increase your favor) and risk it all.

    Making changes to the rules is a bad idea mid contest. They already in my opinion made one bad decision regarding game changes. I hope they dont make anymore.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chacka_DDO View Post
    because I just hit the heroic experience cap on the hardcore server and I was actually able to test it, this question comes up.
    Even with enough experience for level 20, I'm not allowed to claim the level 20 reward.
    I have to take level 20 but currently, I cannot do this if I dont want to lose all possible favor for level 14-19 quests.

    Mortality Says on the first selection menu "Tell me if I have achieved enough Expirence to be remembered."
    If you hit the hard cap for the heroic experience on a character in DDO you have actually enough experience for level 20.
    It is at least debatable if you have to be actually level 20 or if it is enough to have earned enough expirence for this goal.
    In my opinion, it should be in doubt in the favor of the player and there is no need for this additional risk.
    Not to mention that I would like to actually claim my reward now and maybe use it, in my opinion, it is earned at this point. (I can talk of course only for me but I can imagine the majority sees it in the same way at the moment they reach this point)

    The question is if this additional difficulty and risk and delay are really intended by the developers or just only something they have not thought of?
    Chacka is correct, must go with what is written and not 'guess' what the Devs meant. We already have one unintended consequence overturned- the Wilderness level lockout. There are a lot of differences to what sounds good in planning and then the reality of live game-play. Not to knock the Devs on this, Hardcore came about with as little work on their part as possible to implement. Not a bad idea to maximize the work vs. reward effort. Much as they thought players would take a long time to play R10 and get Reaper wings when in fact they were accomplished by players much faster than their wildest dreams, we have to wonder at a few game-play mechanics which are introduced for the first time. Are they working EXACTLY as the Devs intended when they wrote them or is there now a needed reality check after the players have had their turn with it?

    The Devs have listened to reasonable feedback on their initial quest level idea and already changed it. Bravo for them as this was both the right thing to do and a correct readjustment.

    --Mortality Says on the first selection menu "Tell me if I have achieved enough Expirence to be remembered."-- Chacka is absolutely correct to ask, "The question is if this additional difficulty and risk and delay are really intended by the developers or just only something they have not thought of?"

    Whichever way they answer will then be definitive and we can plan accordingly, but we need an answer. Maybe they thought 5000 favor was a reasonable goal given the current max of around 6000 that a number of players had a chance at getting while discounting most raids and auto-death quests. Or maybe perhaps now they are thinking, "Oh man, guys, if players can't get to quests in the high teens hardly anyone is going to have a chance of reaching 500 favor and it looks pretty out of touch on our part to offer a reward for a nigh unobtainable goal."

    Given that they have removed the wilderness and too low level quests in chain arcs restrictions, it is not unreasonable for Chacka to ask about this. It is not taking anything away from anyone for the Devs to reconsider that what made it to live game-play is working counter to what they thought would be the case when they thought it up in the first place.

    Hardcore has been a lot of fun, most fun I've had I years. It was bound to have a few teething issues on the first run. It is better for everyone to get them settled as soon as possible. I applaud the Devs for listening to us now and not just assuming the mantle of everything we point out as something which should wait until next time.

    Many thanks to Chacka for running ahead for the rest of us and figuring out which questions need to be asked now. Ich bedanke mich sehr fuer Ihre bemuehung!
    Last edited by Sho-sa; 08-22-2019 at 07:54 PM.

  17. #17
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinyelvis View Post
    If they made this change do you really think it would be fair to those folks who have already achieved level 20 (possibly through expense of real money) knowing they would miss out on favor and have to TR and start again to achieve the favor side of things, and thus incurring more risk? You shoot for 20 (take the money now option) or hold out for more (push to increase your favor) and risk it all.

    Making changes to the rules is a bad idea mid contest. They already in my opinion made one bad decision regarding game changes. I hope they dont make anymore.
    Your reason is not unfounded but practiculary not very relevant YET.
    (The quicker the developers act here the fewer players are affected.)
    As far as I know, everyone who hit level 20 already and took it did this in a way that 5000 favor is not possible for them (they skipped quests entirely and did quests at hard to lower the risk.)
    The main reason why they took level 20 was mainly founded by the there less risky way to level 20.
    And the second point is that this is not at all unfair, with this argument you could say it is not fair that we now drive cars while our ancestors rode horses and for this reason, we should ride horses.
    I also dont complain that now other players can do quests I was locked out from because of the issue with the slayer areas it is good for them so it is easier for them to get their rewards.
    Of course, I would like that I get this favor too if any possible but just only because I suffered this disadvantage I would not insist that everyone else have to suffer this disadvantage too.
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  18. #18
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Default Risk of Lag that can kill you

    Because I suffered today the first time really bad lag I would like to add this to my argumentation here.
    Please everyone who splits hair and tells me everyone ion hardcore has to technically take level 20 just only because it is currently needed should consider this.
    Again you already have done what is need to claim your reward, just only the step to take level 20 prevents you from that.
    If you want to have the chance on 5000 favor you are forced to remain below level 20 for level 14-19 quests.
    And with this, you risk your already earned reward and this risk clearly includes really existent and relevant technical issues like this example.



    I know it is a bit hard to see if you not actually the one who is at the controls and try moving and the character doesn't move etc.
    But you can e.g. see that I swing my weapon and with a delay of several seconds the monster damage is displayed.
    You can see even the hireling is floating and stuck in the air at one point.
    Then you can see how I hit Dismiss Rage so I can use the teleport (the first time so far) and even if the effect appears on the character the rage buff doesn't disappear.
    And how I'm stuck in the air while I try that.
    I also hit the teleport several times before it actually worked.
    Also, notice that my character got at this moment 1029 hp and lost 272 for a wizard on this server this might be already a death (also consider that my PRR and AC is relatively high for this server).
    The chat tells you that Ariabronx got the same issue at the same time and he lives not even in the same country, if you now want to tell me, this is only a problem on my end.
    Arialbronx told me too thereafter that he was 10 seconds before within a trap if lag would have hit him at this moment he would be dead now.

    Anyway, lag is real in DDO and even on the hardcore league server and it is in my opinion just not right to burden the player with the risk the already earned reward for gathering enough XP for heroic level 20.
    So please no hair-splitting here let us claim the reward after we have done the work.
    Last edited by Chacka_DDO; 08-22-2019 at 10:36 PM.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chacka_DDO View Post
    Because I suffered today the first time really bad lag I would like to add this to my argumentation here.
    Please everyone who splits hair and tells me everyone ion hardcore has to technically take level 20 just only because it is currently needed should consider this.
    Again you already have done what is need to claim your reward, just only the step to take level 20 prevents you from that.
    If you want to have the chance on 5000 favor you are forced to remain below level 20 for level 14-19 quests.
    And with this, you risk your already earned reward and this risk clearly includes really existent and relevant technical issues like this example.



    I know it is a bit hard to see if you not actually the one who is at the controls and try moving and the character doesn't move etc.
    But you can e.g. see that I swing my weapon and with a delay of several seconds the monster damage is displayed.
    You can see even the hireling is floating and stuck in the air at one point.
    Then you can see how I hit Dismiss Rage so I can use the teleport (the first time so far) and even if the effect appears on the character the rage buff doesn't disappear.
    And how I'm stuck in the air while I try that.
    I also hit the teleport several times before it actually worked.
    Also, notice that my character got at this moment 1029 hp and lost 272 for a wizard on this server this might be already a death (also consider that my PRR and AC is relatively high for this server).
    The chat tells you that Ariabronx got the same issue at the same time and he lives not even in the same country, if you now want to tell me, this is only a problem on my end.
    Arialbronx told me too thereafter that he was 10 seconds before within a trap if lag would have hit him at this moment he would be dead now.

    Anyway, lag is real in DDO and even on the hardcore league server and it is in my opinion just not right to burden the player with the risk the already earned reward for gathering enough XP for heroic level 20.
    So please no hair-splitting here let us claim the reward after we have done the work.

    You should take a break for a couple days. It sounds like your nerves are frazzled. Also, how do you play with the tetris game style heads up display?
    Last edited by tinyelvis; 08-22-2019 at 11:05 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chacka_DDO View Post
    Your reason is not unfounded but practiculary not very relevant YET.
    (The quicker the developers act here the fewer players are affected.)
    As far as I know, everyone who hit level 20 already and took it did this in a way that 5000 favor is not possible for them (they skipped quests entirely and did quests at hard to lower the risk.)
    The main reason why they took level 20 was mainly founded by the there less risky way to level 20.
    And the second point is that this is not at all unfair, with this argument you could say it is not fair that we now drive cars while our ancestors rode horses and for this reason, we should ride horses.
    I also dont complain that now other players can do quests I was locked out from because of the issue with the slayer areas it is good for them so it is easier for them to get their rewards.
    Of course, I would like that I get this favor too if any possible but just only because I suffered this disadvantage I would not insist that everyone else have to suffer this disadvantage too.
    The quest you were locked out of you can makeup in epic play. The change helped you. You will be able to have points now that you could not have before.

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