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  1. #1
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Exclamation epic characters not allowed in heroic quests on the hardcore server?

    I got yesterday a tell from a player with a level 20 character that his character is treated as epic and there is seemingly an additional rule on the hardcore server that prevents this characters from entering 16-19 quests (the normal and not the effective level).
    For me, this additional rule makes no sense at least for a character who only wants to claim favor on this server.
    And I have a slight impression that the developers exaggerate here.

    The FAQ for the hardcore server tells us only one rule for over level restrictions:
    "There is a level lockout to prevent characters from running quests too far over level. (Base level +4, or effective level on elite +2)"

    So I would kindly ask if you can remove this rule because it does not need to apply exactly the same rules for favor claim as for reaper gain?

    The rule for not entering a quest below your character level (5 or more) is also, in my opinion, good, and to be honest I would even like this rule on a normal server.

    And before you quickly answer it is alright and it is hardcore and it has to be difficult etc. maybe read my reasoning below.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
    -Immanuel Kant-

    "Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has."
    -René Descartes-

  2. #2
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Question so what is in D&D heroic and what is epic?

    I feel I have to ask this question because it becomes with the rules of permadeath much more importance.
    So the question again, what is an epic character and what is an epic level in DDO and should DDO not follow the usual D&D rules?

    A quick read up with help of wiki and google was done by me because, to be honest, I'm not a D&D pen and paper veteran of some sort, my personal D&D story started with DDO.

    My suspicion from what I see in DDO was already that DDO is unfortunately basically inconsistent here again, in some rules the epic level is 21 and in others it is 20.
    Just an example, the epic destinies activate in level 20 and the first dungeons got an epic version with a dungeon level of 20 (on normal).
    The only quest and the only two raids with a natural normal level of 20 seemingly also count as epic in the opinion of the developers because you can enter them with an epic character on reaper mode on the normal server.
    But then other rules in DDO tell us the epic level is 21 like a level 20 character is not allowed to enter an epic challenge.
    Another sign that the final heroic level is 20 when you see that the normal enhancement system ends at level 20 with the last capstone.
    And last but not least you got 20 class level to get (the max level for a pure class is also 20)

    But back to my small google/wiki research, also here I see what I already assume, the first epic level in Dungeons and Dragons is quite obviously level 21.
    And therefore a level 20 character should be also in DDO threated as a heroic character, just by logic and consistency with the rules of seemingly every version of the Dungeons and Dragons rules where epic character levels are possible.

    So what got this question now important for me?
    Because it is, of course, a big difference if you can not enter a heroic quest because your character is level 20 and therefore basically heroic.

    Just to say it clearly, I'm absolutely ok when characters with the Power of Epic Destinies cannot enter heroic quests in DDO.
    This was also the reason why I did not speak up regarding this question in the past.
    But because it got now more important for me I take it a little closer.
    Basically, in DDO, the Epic Destinies should activate at level 21.
    And for the question, if a quest is epic or heroic, the effective quest level of a quest should count.

    This means that a level 20 character should be allowed to enter e.g. a level 16, 17 and 18 quests.
    And if you take it close, a level 21 character should be allowed to enter a level 19 quest in elite or reaper and a level 20 quest only on hard, elite and reaper.
    This is evidently pure logic when you set the border at level 20 for heroic and 21 for epic which is seemingly Dungeons and Dragons consistent and only DDO differs here.

    If the game designers want to make exceptions for particularly reasons this should be always in favor of the players in my opinion.
    e.g. the basically simple rule on the current hardcore version of DDO.
    The Hardcore server FAQ reads ONLY this:
    „There is a level lockout to prevent characters from running quests too far over level. (Base level +4, or effective level on elite +2)“
    But a player who has a level 20 character already on hardcore told me he cannot enter level 16-19 quests because his character is treated as epic.

    So I would say this additional rule on the hardcore server should be removed.

    AND basically, the same rule could be used also for reaper difficulty, with one exception in both cases.

    Your epic destinies should be inactive, the epic levels without any ED are not really more powerful and therefore I see this as the right compromise in that question if you dont to take this even closer.

    This means on a new character who has not claimed any ED that he still counts as heroic until he claims his first ED

    And on a character after a TR the Eds should be reset and deactivated and the character should count as epic again after he activates his EDs and spends the APs he earned in his last lives.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
    -Immanuel Kant-

    "Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has."
    -René Descartes-

  3. #3
    Community Member Rivet's Avatar
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    This seems like something that's not working as intended. If I had to guess some functionality of the reaper lockouts was used for this server and this Epic characters were caught up in it. That is just a guess but either way, people REALLY need to be warned of this asap. It's gonna hit so many people down the line and this is something that everyone on the server should be aware of as it wasn't mentioned anywhere.

  4. #4
    Community Member Xyfiel's Avatar
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    Hit 20 before servers went down and just got back on to do a few 16's. Nope. Now to rework my plans.

  5. #5
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Hit 20 before servers went down and just got back on to do a few 16's. Nope. Now to rework my plans.
    And for this reason and also for the reason that we were not aware of the lock out from some slayer areas we lost some favor is my second suggestion.
    A fair solution would be to make it possible to accumulate favor on several lives, and currently, it looks like this is already hard enough for the majority of the DDO players (maybe including me).

    But as I said, the modest proposal is that the achievements of one life should be preserved after a TR and you have an all-new chance on another life.

    I have the impression that the developers underestimated the difficulty of DDO if you are not allowed to die a single time because I can imagine that no developer attempted this at all in a way a player has to do it.
    One sign is the favor demand set to 5k which is the same as you need for the +5 tome it gives me the strong impression this number was not chosen by the result of any meaningful test how difficult this really is.
    The perspective of a player is different and it's not enough just only to estimate how it feels, you have to try it.
    Therefore If you want to keep the rule for one life I would kindly ask to lower this demand to 4000 favor and from what I see so far this is already quite hard to do.
    The cosmetic gain should be possible for players who are not on the leaderboard, my estimation might be wrong but currently, it looks like that even only a few players on the leaderboard will have the 5k or even more at the end.
    Of course, a developer can always tell us this is the intention, it is even possible that they set a reward only for the first 3 on the leaderboard.
    But I wonder if this was honestly the intention for the cosmetic that even the players on the leaderboard dont have the related cosmetic at the end.
    Last edited by Chacka_DDO; 08-21-2019 at 11:25 AM.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
    -Immanuel Kant-

    "Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has."
    -René Descartes-

  6. #6
    DDO Players Council Renvar's Avatar
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    There has always been a reaper lockout on a level 20 running level 19 and lower content, but never a lockout on a level 20 running level 19 and lower on N/H/E. This was also not mentioned in any of the lama or release notes. I'd suspect it is not WAI. Hopefully it gets addressed soon.
    Asheras - Velania - Renvar - Ventarya - Officer in Loreseekers and Officer of Lava Divers - Khyber

  7. #7
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    With one of the leader boards being for favor are people running over level to sandbag as many completions as possible?
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    With one of the leader boards being for favor are people running over level to sandbag as many completions as possible?
    You're locked out of the quest if you're more than 4 levels over, even if you try to go in on elite. You can't just race to 30 and then do all of the quests over-level for favor. I'm wondering if they just set the reaper lockout to apply to all difficulty levels, which is why level 20 is being locked out of all heroic quests, even level 19's. If they leave it this way, it's going to make getting elite favor for level 18/19 quests much more difficult as your ability to run over-level is squeezed.

  9. #9
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zretch View Post
    You're locked out of the quest if you're more than 4 levels over, even if you try to go in on elite. You can't just race to 30 and then do all of the quests over-level for favor. I'm wondering if they just set the reaper lockout to apply to all difficulty levels, which is why level 20 is being locked out of all heroic quests, even level 19's. If they leave it this way, it's going to make getting elite favor for level 18/19 quests much more difficult as your ability to run over-level is squeezed.
    This would be my guess, a copy/paste and no developer going back to make sure that you could run Elite Dreaming Dark @ 22 (for example). Maybe in next week's patch. I knew there would be growing pains for the Permadeath server. I'm also really glad that it is a 90 day event so they can collect data and make improvements.
    Quote Originally Posted by hp1055cm View Post
    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  10. #10
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    The rules are the same for everyone. Pretty much the worse thing someone running a competition can do is change the rules midstream. Change them for the next run, but leave the current run alone. Sure, you may be effected adversely if something that you did not contemplate occurs. But someone else may have planned for this and making changes effects their position relatively speaking.

    Sit back and watch, dont change anything.

  11. #11
    Community Member Xyfiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinyelvis View Post
    The rules are the same for everyone. Pretty much the worse thing someone running a competition can do is change the rules midstream. Change them for the next run, but leave the current run alone. Sure, you may be effected adversely if something that you did not contemplate occurs. But someone else may have planned for this and making changes effects their position relatively speaking.

    Sit back and watch, dont change anything.
    You can't plan for things unknown. A lot of the issues weren't known until we found out the hard way. The worse thing someone can do is change the rules from live and not tell anyone.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinyelvis View Post
    But someone else may have planned for this and making changes effects their position relatively speaking.

    Sit back and watch, dont change anything.

    How could someone plan for a bug and or "rule" that was never listed?
    Triple All

    Ghallanda forever.

  13. #13
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    With one of the leader boards being for favor are people running over level to sandbag as many completions as possible?
    I was very tempted to download DDO on my laptop to play the hardcore league while traveling. However, it made me sad to see things like what you mention. While there is a 4 levels restriction, it is still gaming the system. That, and passing along loot, and other multiple ways too cheese.

    Don't get me wrong, I am happy we are getting this kind of stuff. But a few things make me sad:

    i) no plans to introduce more of these ''fair'' competitions in the normal servers: many more interesting characters are possible on live (more than 2 roles, and so on), while hardcore resembles the mentality of r10 (uber specialized / one dimensional characters), for organized groups.

    ii) the amount of metaing the competition: choosing easier quests, level cushions to go back to quests, and so on (repeat easier quests for rXP and so on).

    iii) store: just get rid of it, be happy people are resubbing to play.

    I understand this is a first step in the right direction. But I would have loved for something more constrained to avoid all these cheesy strategies.

    I also understand that some people might feel that playing easier quests and generally meta gaming like that is part of the game, I just don't share that preference. I think skill should be showed in actually executing stuff in game (or prepping beforehand) without gaming the system.

    For me, the better implementation would have been:

    Play a sequence of quests in a given order for a given designed score at a given level.

    Score should be given for the difficulty of the quest (we all know there are quests that are far easier than others, often depending on how old they are). This minimizes the order / repeat / choice of levels and so on.

    Anyway, can't please everyone I guess.

  14. #14
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zretch View Post
    You're locked out of the quest if you're more than 4 levels over, even if you try to go in on elite. You can't just race to 30 and then do all of the quests over-level for favor. I'm wondering if they just set the reaper lockout to apply to all difficulty levels, which is why level 20 is being locked out of all heroic quests, even level 19's. If they leave it this way, it's going to make getting elite favor for level 18/19 quests much more difficult as your ability to run over-level is squeezed.
    Epic characters have been locked out of heroic quests for quite some time. I remember commenting in that thread how its odd that we can run 2 levels over and get elite BB (at the time) but cant be 20 running an 18 or 19 level quest.

    Chances are many folks who are just finding this out didn't know about it due to running reaper which was at-level for full RXP.
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  15. #15
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I was very tempted to download DDO on my laptop to play the hardcore league while traveling. However, it made me sad to see things like what you mention. While there is a 4 levels restriction, it is still gaming the system. That, and passing along loot, and other multiple ways too cheese.

    Don't get me wrong, I am happy we are getting this kind of stuff. But a few things make me sad:

    i) no plans to introduce more of these ''fair'' competitions in the normal servers: many more interesting characters are possible on live (more than 2 roles, and so on), while hardcore resembles the mentality of r10 (uber specialized / one dimensional characters), for organized groups.

    ii) the amount of metaing the competition: choosing easier quests, level cushions to go back to quests, and so on (repeat easier quests for rXP and so on).

    iii) store: just get rid of it, be happy people are resubbing to play.

    I understand this is a first step in the right direction. But I would have loved for something more constrained to avoid all these cheesy strategies.

    I also understand that some people might feel that playing easier quests and generally meta gaming like that is part of the game, I just don't share that preference. I think skill should be showed in actually executing stuff in game (or prepping beforehand) without gaming the system.

    For me, the better implementation would have been:

    Play a sequence of quests in a given order for a given designed score at a given level.

    Score should be given for the difficulty of the quest (we all know there are quests that are far easier than others, often depending on how old they are). This minimizes the order / repeat / choice of levels and so on.

    Anyway, can't please everyone I guess.
    Yeah, pretty much. Not that we didn't understand what this was beforehand, but when we saw TRs on the morning of day 2 already at mid level again, we just grinned and shrugged.
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  16. #16
    Community Member vryxnr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yeah, pretty much. Not that we didn't understand what this was beforehand, but when we saw TRs on the morning of day 2 already at mid level again, we just grinned and shrugged.
    we saw that? Who? I didn't see that. I saw a large number of people playing, and a large number of people dying, and very few characters breaching the double digits (usually via ignoring reaper and focusing on favor via hard/elite). Maybe one or two people much higher level with no favor/no presence on the leaderboards at all due to using gold rolls suddenly dying because they had no decent gear. When I opened the who tab on day 3 there was no one above 12, and everyone I saw was a first lifer. Are you talking about the one or two people who got to 20 asap to get the level 20 cloak reward and shared pics of them on the forums? I appreciate them for showing us one of the rewards. It's something to aim for, and knowing what it is makes me more motivated to get it. I do wish there was no/limited use of the store for the sake of "competition", but I also want SSG to make money.

    Also, playing easier quests to 'game' the system? What? One of the goals is 5k favor. There are some quests that have to be avoided (heroic shroud) because death, any death, is permanent and ends that characters ability to participate. Most quests, easy AND difficult, will need to be done. As first livers with no hand-me-down gear, if you're going for the favor rewards, you're constantly holding levels and not gaining any exp because you're doing everything at each quest level before moving on to the next. Avoiding quests/raids with instant death effects that can't be blocked is smart (though some may be willing to risk it for the thrill. It's a very different play experience when death is permanent). Even at quest base level +4, some quests are extremely difficult to complete on elite/reaper as first lifers with no pre-farmed gear and no past lives, but people are still doing them to have any chance at the 5k favor rewards, and the shear number of deaths and slow climb of names on the leaderboards over the last week show that.

    I know this game has such a wide range built into it that each person playing it can have wildly different play experiences, but sometimes I do wonder if some of us really are playing the same game at all (though many forum posters have admitted in the past that they don't play but still to post).

  17. #17
    Community Member Mindos's Avatar
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    I haves the confus. Whats the rule? Is it a new rul? Is it only reaper? Is it on all servers, or we just misunderstanding, etc.


  18. #18
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinyelvis View Post
    The rules are the same for everyone. Pretty much the worse thing someone running a competition can do is change the rules midstream. Change them for the next run, but leave the current run alone. Sure, you may be effected adversely if something that you did not contemplate occurs. But someone else may have planned for this and making changes effects their position relatively speaking.

    Sit back and watch, dont change anything.
    This is nonsense, maybe handful players maybe affected yet, I may have not seen everyone but there only a handful who took level 20 at all (if there are not anonymous guys but those would appear on the leaderboard)

    Therefore it is clearly NOT too late to act, the few players who took level 20 to save there level 20 cosmetic cloak (you cannot claim the reward when you are at the heroic level cap but not actually level 20) can still get some missed favor if they want.
    All the players I personally saw stopped playing at this point and started a new toon because 5k is out of range for them for the reason that they took at the end the safe way and played below elite and because of that they are surprised by this unannounced additional rule for the hardcore server.

    Again it is NOT too late to act but the longer the developers wait here the more players are affected in a negative way.
    And in addition, the players who are at level 20 currently can still get the missed favor after they were surprised by this not announced additional rule.
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
    -Immanuel Kant-

    "Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has."
    -René Descartes-

  19. #19
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I was very tempted to download DDO on my laptop to play the hardcore league while traveling. However, it made me sad to see things like what you mention. While there is a 4 levels restriction, it is still gaming the system. That, and passing along loot, and other multiple ways too cheese.

    Don't get me wrong, I am happy we are getting this kind of stuff. But a few things make me sad:

    i) no plans to introduce more of these ''fair'' competitions in the normal servers: many more interesting characters are possible on live (more than 2 roles, and so on), while hardcore resembles the mentality of r10 (uber specialized / one dimensional characters), for organized groups.
    My guy is a arti/barb/rogue halfling mutt with healing dragonmarks... He plays more than one "role" on the hardcore server. And he sure isn't uber specialized.

    For me, the better implementation would have been:

    Play a sequence of quests in a given order for a given designed score at a given level.

    Score should be given for the difficulty of the quest (we all know there are quests that are far easier than others, often depending on how old they are). This minimizes the order / repeat / choice of levels and so on.
    Decent idea, but then you'd also have to give different scores based on character builds, group composition, etc. Because some quests are easier for wizards and some are easier for clerics, and some are trivial if you have both and a paladin in front.

    Good idea in the abstract... Extremely hard in execution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago. Note - This was posted in 10/2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

  20. #20
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindos View Post
    I haves the confus. Whats the rule? Is it a new rul? Is it only reaper? Is it on all servers, or we just misunderstanding, etc.
    The title says it I think, it is a rule ONLY for the hardcore server, and this rule was not announced at all anywhere, alone, for this reason, it should be removed just because in the name of fairness.
    Not to mention the reason I gave here in the second post.
    This lockout makes it just way more difficult to play level 17, 18 and 19 quests at level 19 while it makes it not much easier if you are allowed to play e.g. a level 19 quests at level 23 (because no one has any ED active)
    "Act according to a maxim which can be adopted at the same time as a universal law."
    -Immanuel Kant-

    "Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has."
    -René Descartes-

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