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  1. #1
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Default THF vs TWF: current status and future

    As of U42, THF is widely recognized (devs and players) as a martial style inferior to TWF in most gameplay situations.

    The question questions are: i) how did we get to this point? (1st post) ii) how can it be fixed? (2nd post)

    I analize how difference sources of damage boost DPS relatively more for some styles than others and find that:

    • Most forms of damage enhancers are biased towards one style or the other, with no neutral sources (at least I couldn't think of any).
    • When the devs introduce a higher value for one such source, they need to realize that this, by itself, already changes the balance between the styles.
    • Over the past few years, the devs have boosted disproportionately enhancers that favor relatively more TWF.


    ANALYSIS

    • The analysis will be done using comparative statics on the damage per animation formulas, because it is where the core difference lay.
    • In order to see the effect of a source of damage on overall damage per animation, I take the partial derivative of the damage formula with respect to that element.
    • Instead of posting all the results, I will just classify the damage elements according to whether they favor one style or the other.


    Abbreviations

    1. Att: attribute damage mod
    2. hB / lB: high / low base dice damage weapon
    3. Misc. : miscellaneous boni to damage, including PrE based, deadly, and so on.
    4. Sk: seeker
    5. mAa: attacks per animation for main hand; this is essentially double strike since I am not dealing with alacrity bonuses.
    6. Cc: critical chance
    7. Cm: critical multiplier
    8. Pr: proccs
    9. cPr: chance to enable a proc.
    10. cGB: glancing blow chance
    11. dGB: glancing blow damage
    12. Oh: off hand hit chance
    13. oAa: attacks per animation off hand
    14. thfDPA / twfDPA: two handed / two weapon fighting damage per animation



    Assumptions

    • Melee power is simply scaling damage up, and it is the same across styles.
    • Cc and Cm are the same for both styles.
    • I will not deal with hB and lB, would require case specific comparisons; feel free to update the calculations with them.



    Damage THF

    thfDPA =
    # Critical hit
    (Att*1.5+hB+Misc+Sk)*mAa*Cc*Cm + Aa* Pr
    # Normal hit
    +(Att*1.5+ hB + Misc)*mAa*(1-Cc)
    # GB damage
    + (Att*1.5+ hB + Misc)* cGB* dGB + cPr*Pr*cGB


    Damage TWF

    twfDPA=
    # Critical hit
    (Att + lB + Misc + Sk)*mAa*Cc*Cm+Aa*Pr
    # Normal hit
    (Att + lB + Misc)*mAa+Aa*Pr
    # Off hand critical hit
    (Att*0.5 + lB + Misc + Sk)* oAa*Cc*Cm*Oh+oAa*Pr*Oh
    # Off hand normal hit
    (Att*0.5 + lB + Misc )*oAa*Oh+oAa*Pr*Oh

    Results

    • Favor THF: Att; mAa; cGB; dGB; cPr
    • Favor TWF: Misc; Pr; Oh; oAa; Sk; Cc; Cm


    CONCLUSION

    In recent years, there has been an explosion for the values of the damage sources that favor TWF. A very significant example is sneak attack damage (a proc like damage), but we all know that we have seen massive boosts to critical and misc boni. This has resulted in TWF pulling ahead of THF to the point that most THF builds are considered flavor.
    Last edited by BigErkyKid; 08-11-2019 at 05:03 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Default The way forward

    Based on the analysis of the first post, there aren't many options available for the devs to boost THF without designing specific items around the style. The latter is not a viable solution, IMHO, because it requires constant rebalancing due to power creep.

    There, thus, three realistic available ways for devs to boost THF, which I discuss below:


    • Attribute scores: this could be an issue given the already outstanding tempest PrE.
    • Main hand double strike: as we close in to sustained 100% DBs, this is no longer a viable option.
    • Glancing blow specific things: boosting massively GB related enhancers seems to be the most pragmatic option, given that the first two aren't true options.


    Now, how could GB be boosted in a way that scales well into the future?

    I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear what the community has to say. Have I made any mistakes in my analysis? Any finer points you want to make? Bring in practical IG experience? I am eager to learn from you.
    Last edited by BigErkyKid; 08-11-2019 at 12:07 PM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Increasing the sources of glancing blow damage could work, and may be part of any solution.

    Other ideas I would like to explore:
    • Letting them crit.
    • Removing the hit roll.


    Basically what I would like is for them to be a special proc that does some percentage of base damage to all targets in range. They are almost this already but the hit roll and lack of scaling with crits is a massive penalty. IMO

  4. #4
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Increasing the sources of glancing blow damage could work, and may be part of any solution.

    Other ideas I would like to explore:
    • Letting them crit.
    • Removing the hit roll.


    Basically what I would like is for them to be a special proc that does some percentage of base damage to all targets in range. They are almost this already but the hit roll and lack of scaling with crits is a massive penalty. IMO
    Happy to see you comment.

    I think letting them crit is a good idea, however I think that there are two things that should be kept in mind going forward, not to get back here in a few months:

    i) Understanding that almost everything in the DPS equation affects the balance between styles (from crit multis, to DBs, and the obvious off hand stuff and so on)
    ii) Any change implemented has to be designed with future scaling in mind

    Do you think that adding practical examples with actual values might help? And is the kind of analysis done in the first post clear?

    Thanks!

  5. #5
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    Honestly I didnt really go through your math because it felt like doing a decoder ring puzzle...

    But it looks like you're trying to make THF and TWF numerically comparable. I think that's a mistake, because there's always going to be one number that's bigger than the other. I think the way to balance them would be to make them situationally useful. TWF geared more for single targets, THF for AOE.

    I think that can be accomplished simply by making GBs proc on every hit, having them work as full-on hits, just like offhand strikes do for TWF. They would start with an -80% damage penalty though, then the THF feats would each reduce that penalty by 20%, so with PTHF you'd be doing 100% damage on all your GBs

    THF would still be the slowest of all the fighting styles on a per-hit basis, and against a single target (ie bosses) would still be inferior damage with a lower hitrate for on-hit procs like EK or Blood Strength or Blitz. But if you had two or more enemies in your hitbox, then your overall DPS quickly goes up since you're hitting them all at one.

    DoD would still give Tempests a "best of both worlds" situation of course, but without full uptime, and at the cost of their T5.

    I think that would create two distinct niches in playstyle, with a viable role for both types of characters in a party, without having to actually make the two styles mathematically equal. THF would be optimized by gathering lots of mobs around you all at once - so building Intim tanking, heavy armor, etc. would help you boost your effective DPS as well since you could manage larger and larger swarms (maybe cap it at BAB/4 + 1 max additional targets so people dont break the servers pulling huge swarms)

    SWF would still have a role too, also as a single-target style - but its niche would be more for builds that couldnt manage the DEX for TWF, since it only has a Balance prereq (eg all the melee vampire EKs about to hit) or for Swashes and others specializing in SWF...with the ability to also do GBs at 20% (but with 30% faster attacks and 1.5x stat bonus), with Daxe or Bsword, so kind of straddling between TWF and THF.
    Last edited by droid327; 08-11-2019 at 01:30 PM.

  6. #6
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Honestly I didnt really go through your math because it felt like doing a decoder ring puzzle...

    But it looks like you're trying to make THF and TWF numerically comparable. I think that's a mistake, because there's always going to be one number that's bigger than the other. I think the way to balance them would be to make them situationally useful. TWF geared more for single targets, THF for AOE.
    I am glad you posted. Just to be clear, let me answer this part. I won't comment on the suggestions, not because they are bad, but because this is for the devs to see and judge, and not me.

    I am NOT trying to make them have equivalent damage. I am just explaining how things that might seem unrelated to the balance between THF and TWF, such as crit enhancers, are in fact impacting the relative performance of one vs the other.

    Hence, maintaining balance going forward means keeping this in mind. Another example, adding a new source of artifact bonus to attributes is in fact changing the relative performance of THF and TWF.

    The analysis is extremely simple: just take partial derivatives of the damage formula wrt to the bonus you want to investigate, and compare the values of that p. derivative between styles. I am happy to give further details if they are needed.

    Hope this clarifies!

  7. #7
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Default My proposal to solve the problem

    So, we want to impose restrictions on a possible solution:

    • THF needs to be better than TWF for AoE, and TWF for single target
    • Any further changes to the common damage enhancers need to scale both equally (or as close as possible)


    Here is a proposal that mostly fits this:

    Modify the glancing blow damage formula to be the following:

    # GB critical hit
    (Att*0.5 + hB + Misc + Sk)* dGB*Cc*Cm*cGB+ cGB*Pr*cPr
    # GB normal hit
    (Att*0.5 + hB + Misc )* dGB* cGB +cGB*Pr*cPr

    This is the same formula used in off hand attacks, except that instead of allowing DBs on a single target, it allows you to splash the damage on additional targets.

    There are two tuning parameters in this formula:

    • i) the chance of proccing effects and stuff on a glancing blow,
    • ii) he amount of damage on a glancing blow.


    Further assumptions:

    • We are OK with the hB and lB differences
    • The chance to proc a GB will be made equivalent to the progression of off hand attacks


    GLANCING BLOW DAMAGE TUNING

    A possible way to calibrate the amount of damage in a glancing blow could be according to how many targets does a THF need to be fighting to be outputting a similar amount of total damage (across targets) as a TWF fighter.

    Suppose we set that parameter to two targets. Then, omitting the proc related damage, this would mean that dGB= oAa/2. That is, glancing blow damage needs to be equal to half the off hand double strike chances.

    PROC TUNING

    The final piece to calibrate, proc chances and proc effects, can follow a similar logic. Here, instead of the damage, you use the chance to proc to calibrate. Suppose we keep the 2 targets equal damage goal. Then, cPr=oAa/2. That is, the chance to proc effects needs to be half the off hand double strike chances. This would apply to things like sneak attack, or the benefits from special attacks. The latter could be discussed.

    THE BENEFITS

    • You have two styles balanced around two different types of damage, AoE and single target.
    • These two styles scale equally with most damage enhancers, so you don't need to recalibrate them every single update.


    Thoughts?

  8. #8
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Do you think that adding practical examples with actual values might help? And is the kind of analysis done in the first post clear?
    It makes sense to me take the partial derivative and get the rate of growth for a given style relative to the stat that your looking at. If the rate of growth of stat x is higher (or grows faster) its more beneficial for that style then the other.

    I'm not sure if hard numbers would be useful here or not since all your seeing is how fast the Combat Style scales with respect to the stat, hard numbers would just be useful in showing us if there are outlier stats that over tune a given style. Acceleration (second derivative) might be a better metric for this compare.

    I'm also not sure if I think all stats need to scale both styles at the same rate as long as both styles have stats that scale them well (well is a bit subjective ...).

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    • THF needs to be better than TWF for AoE, and TWF for single target

    GLANCING BLOW DAMAGE TUNING

    A possible way to calibrate the amount of damage in a glancing blow could be according to how many targets does a THF need to be fighting to be outputting a similar amount of total damage (across targets) as a TWF fighter.

    Suppose we set that parameter to two targets. Then, omitting the proc related damage, this would mean that dGB= oAa/2. That is, glancing blow damage needs to be equal to half the off hand double strike chances.
    I'm actually not a fan of the, TWF = Single Target, THF = AOE, SWF = In Between, paradigm that exists now this is why my combat style ideas (see sig) scrap that focus and go to a fast style, slow style, spike style focus.

    The reason I'm not a fan of this is its going to change based on the meta no matter what you do. If the important quests for a given meta are loaded with trash or boss fights with hoards of small fry enemies then AoE damage will be more important, alternatively meta is focused on killing a single target then the other styles will be more desirable. This makes quest design harder on the developers and is not really a good idea and I think hindsight of how the pendulum has swung shows this.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Modify the glancing blow damage formula to be the following:

    # GB critical hit
    (Att*0.5 + hB + Misc + Sk)* dGB*Cc*Cm*cGB+ cGB*Pr*cPr
    # GB normal hit
    (Att*0.5 + hB + Misc )* dGB* cGB +cGB*Pr*cPr
    So have glancing blow damage only get 1/2 damage increase from Stat Attribute (e.g STR) and then let them crit this is fine by me. Its a good place to start and and see what comes.

  9. #9
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Honestly I didnt really go through your math because it felt like doing a decoder ring puzzle...

    But it looks like you're trying to make THF and TWF numerically comparable. I think that's a mistake, because there's always going to be one number that's bigger than the other. I think the way to balance them would be to make them situationally useful. TWF geared more for single targets, THF for AOE.

    I think that can be accomplished simply by making GBs proc on every hit, having them work as full-on hits, just like offhand strikes do for TWF. They would start with an -80% damage penalty though, then the THF feats would each reduce that penalty by 20%, so with PTHF you'd be doing 100% damage on all your GBs

    THF would still be the slowest of all the fighting styles on a per-hit basis, and against a single target (ie bosses) would still be inferior damage with a lower hitrate for on-hit procs like EK or Blood Strength or Blitz. But if you had two or more enemies in your hitbox, then your overall DPS quickly goes up since you're hitting them all at one.

    DoD would still give Tempests a "best of both worlds" situation of course, but without full uptime, and at the cost of their T5.

    I think that would create two distinct niches in playstyle, with a viable role for both types of characters in a party, without having to actually make the two styles mathematically equal. THF would be optimized by gathering lots of mobs around you all at once - so building Intim tanking, heavy armor, etc. would help you boost your effective DPS as well since you could manage larger and larger swarms (maybe cap it at BAB/4 + 1 max additional targets so people dont break the servers pulling huge swarms)

    SWF would still have a role too, also as a single-target style - but its niche would be more for builds that couldnt manage the DEX for TWF, since it only has a Balance prereq (eg all the melee vampire EKs about to hit) or for Swashes and others specializing in SWF...with the ability to also do GBs at 20% (but with 30% faster attacks and 1.5x stat bonus), with Daxe or Bsword, so kind of straddling between TWF and THF.
    Great post. I highly recommend your suggestions.

    I will say, however, that my THF is still fairly solid compared to my TWF build. I play both, and although TWF is indeed more powerful, I wouldn't call my THF guy a gimp by any means.
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  10. #10
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    It makes sense to me take the partial derivative and get the rate of growth for a given style relative to the stat that your looking at. If the rate of growth of stat x is higher (or grows faster) its more beneficial for that style then the other.
    That's my point. I was also hoping for it to be a heads up for the devs, since I am not sure they keep in mind those things when designing gear or PrEs. Just because you don't touch the combat style's formulas, it doesn't mean that they are not being imbalanced.

    I'm not sure if hard numbers would be useful here or not since all your seeing is how fast the Combat Style scales with respect to the stat, hard numbers would just be useful in showing us if there are outlier stats that over tune a given style. Acceleration (second derivative) might be a better metric for this compare.
    Of course! I meant more in terms of evaluating some emblematic changes. For example, changes to sneak attack, and then compare TA vs Assassin before and after, thus showing the principle of the analysis above in practice. I do not think most people are following otherwise (my fault in presenting it, I guess).


    I'm also not sure if I think all stats need to scale both styles at the same rate as long as both styles have stats that scale them well (well is a bit subjective ...)
    .

    Here is a major issue: the devs DO NOT scale all stats at similar rates, and this leads to massive imbalances between styles over time. I think that having a formula that scales equally across damage stats would massively simplify balancing. Wouldn't you agree?

    I'm actually not a fan of the, TWF = Single Target, THF = AOE, SWF = In Between, paradigm that exists now this is why my combat style ideas (see sig) scrap that focus and go to a fast style, slow style, spike style focus.

    The reason I'm not a fan of this is its going to change based on the meta no matter what you do. If the important quests for a given meta are loaded with trash or boss fights with hoards of small fry enemies then AoE damage will be more important, alternatively meta is focused on killing a single target then the other styles will be more desirable. This makes quest design harder on the developers and is not really a good idea and I think hindsight of how the pendulum has swung shows this.
    This is a good point, and IMHO it can only be addressed with good quest design. Otherwise, the differences between combat styles would be completely reduced to proc rates and other second order damage sources.

    Unless yo have a specific proposal on how you would design the damage formulas to provide meaningful differences? I am all ears.

    So have glancing blow damage only get 1/2 damage increase from Stat Attribute (e.g STR) and then let them crit this is fine by me. Its a good place to start and and see what comes.
    It still needs tuning, though. Ultimately, one of my other points is that there is no need to increase 10% here or there. The ultimately way to balance is to design a formula that: i) scales well, ii) provides an actual balanced damage value given your design choices.

    As I showed in the balancing of glancing blows, there is a tuning parameter that needs to be chosen. There is no way to balance the styles without it, but once that is chosen, balancing them and scaling them well over time is pure algebra.

    Thanks again for the quality commentary. I always hesitate to put in the effort because of...well, you can see why.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Honestly I didnt really go through your math because it felt like doing a decoder ring puzzle...

    But it looks like you're trying to make THF and TWF numerically comparable. I think that's a mistake, because there's always going to be one number that's bigger than the other. I think the way to balance them would be to make them situationally useful. TWF geared more for single targets, THF for AOE.

    I think that can be accomplished simply by making GBs proc on every hit, having them work as full-on hits, just like offhand strikes do for TWF. They would start with an -80% damage penalty though, then the THF feats would each reduce that penalty by 20%, so with PTHF you'd be doing 100% damage on all your GBs

    THF would still be the slowest of all the fighting styles on a per-hit basis, and against a single target (ie bosses) would still be inferior damage with a lower hitrate for on-hit procs like EK or Blood Strength or Blitz. But if you had two or more enemies in your hitbox, then your overall DPS quickly goes up since you're hitting them all at one.

    DoD would still give Tempests a "best of both worlds" situation of course, but without full uptime, and at the cost of their T5.

    I think that would create two distinct niches in playstyle, with a viable role for both types of characters in a party, without having to actually make the two styles mathematically equal. THF would be optimized by gathering lots of mobs around you all at once - so building Intim tanking, heavy armor, etc. would help you boost your effective DPS as well since you could manage larger and larger swarms (maybe cap it at BAB/4 + 1 max additional targets so people dont break the servers pulling huge swarms)

    SWF would still have a role too, also as a single-target style - but its niche would be more for builds that couldnt manage the DEX for TWF, since it only has a Balance prereq (eg all the melee vampire EKs about to hit) or for Swashes and others specializing in SWF...with the ability to also do GBs at 20% (but with 30% faster attacks and 1.5x stat bonus), with Daxe or Bsword, so kind of straddling between TWF and THF.
    I think that's the way THF is now. It's more viable the more mobs you get into the hit box, and it's pretty obviously the "trash pack" stance for melee. The thing is that THF is so woefully bad compared to the alternative trash pack kings (Sorcerers), that getting your brain around making them actually functional against trash would probably have you slamming on the breaks and screaming "overperforming!" in your head.

    The other issue is that, let's face it, no one other than warlocks is getting nerfed due to their ability to handle trash. Nerfs are hitting the single target builds like monk and wolf because raids involve large bags of hitpoints and people who reduce those bags too fast trivialize content. Heck, Too Hot to Handle even actively discourages any kind of AoE that's not a 100% instantaneous insta-kill (keep your implosions out of that raid). High performing glancing blows against that trash would cause problems.

    So not only is gear bolstering TWF, but raid design is emphasizing the importance of single target DPS while de-emphasizing the importance of AoE DPS. Quite the opposite of quests.

    Rather than make THF for trash packs and TWF for bosses, I'd be looking at giving them similar damage, but having THF hit harder and slower while TWF was more about even sustain. Perhaps something like a momentum and fatigue mechanic (I'm thinking Titan Weapons from CoH), where your first swing is slow, but subsequent swings are fast and hard hitting for a few seconds, and then you need to "re-gather yourself" for your next series of swings. You want to be careful about the "alpha strike" effect where one shot killing everything rapidly trivializes content, but you also don't want to throttle the burst such that you can't sustain good DPS on a 10 minute boss fight.

    Leave Aoe to the casters, THF is about hitting hard.

  12. #12
    Community Member Retired_Old_Gamer's Avatar
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    Not so much for falchion, but a GA & GS sure have enough weight on the weapon to cause a knock-down when a crit is rolled. THIS has never been addressed and IMO is one of the biggest shortcomings in the attack sequence.

    Of course standard check rolls for monsters that can be affected should apply. But this would help quite a bit, having the ability built into anyone taking GTHF.

    I think twf w/ tempest is in a good spot. As for swf, nerf it

    There is a sliding scale where attacks per melee round increases, damage decreases. and visa-versa.

    Ga & GS should by nature do more damage per attack, and dual weapons do less damage with a % increase in attacks per melee round. It's always been that way since D&D 3.5 rule sets.

    In our current tree make-ups, I dont see a need to change anything on the base formula.

    Adding things like i suggested to THF is as far as I'd go.
    Last edited by Lagin; 08-12-2019 at 05:09 PM.

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    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Here is a major issue: the devs DO NOT scale all stats at similar rates, and this leads to massive imbalances between styles over time. I think that having a formula that scales equally across damage stats would massively simplify balancing. Wouldn't you agree?
    Sure, but if you have state A which increases TWF at some good rate but THF at some bad rate but then have state B that scales THF at a good rate and TWF at a bad rate you can work your balance there as long as A'' = B'' (second derivatives with respect to A and B are equal). I think.

    This is where an example might help.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    This is a good point, and IMHO it can only be addressed with good quest design. Otherwise, the differences between combat styles would be completely reduced to proc rates and other second order damage sources.

    Unless yo have a specific proposal on how you would design the damage formulas to provide meaningful differences? I am all ears.
    In a nut shell the idea I proposed was THF = A(2D), TWF = (2A)D, SWF = 0.75AD + 0.25A(5D) those (where A = Attacks per second, D= Damage per attack) provide balance of output (DPS = 2AD) but very different play styles/experiences.

  14. #14
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post

    In our current tree make-ups, I dont see a need to change anything on the base formula.

    Adding things like i suggested to THF is as far as I'd go.
    If they don't change the base formula, they need to keep in mind the different rates and which THF and TWF benefit from the different damage stats. Given the vast diversity of stats, and the already complicated itemization problems, that is almost impossible.

    I am not making this up, it is baked in the damage formulas.

  15. #15
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    Sure, but if you have state A which increases TWF at some good rate but THF at some bad rate but then have state B that scales THF at a good rate and TWF at a bad rate you can work your balance there as long as A'' = B'' (second derivatives with respect to A and B are equal). I think.
    Right, however here are the problems with attempting to do that.

    • There are 13 separate stats for damage. To further complicate, it is not true that they are somehow evenly split in their preferential style; TWF benefits from far more stats than THF.
    • The rate at which they improve damage is different across those 13 stats, so you'd need to balance so that the total change is the same using different stat increases.


    The first issue is, IMO, why the styles are so imbalanced now. Even if we grow each damage stat at the same rate, this would stack in favor of TWF.
    Personally, I think it is an impossible task; they are better of scaling them equally (along the lines of my proposal), and then focusing on good item design. As opposed to trying to balance items and styles at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grailhawk View Post
    In a nut shell the idea I proposed was THF = A(2D), TWF = (2A)D, SWF = 0.75AD + 0.25A(5D) those (where A = Attacks per second, D= Damage per attack) provide balance of output (DPS = 2AD) but very different play styles/experiences.
    Interesting! My comments:

    • At a technical level, I am not sure that the two damage formulas come out to the same amount of damage; what about proc based damage? Think sneak attack.
    • Suppose you manage to make them have the same damage: how does this play differently beyond the cosmetics?


    The only thing I can come up with that makes them difference is due to the dice spread from rolling to times 1d6 vs 1d12+0.5. Am I missing anything?

    As an example, you can plug that into R.

    d12 <- 1:12 #the faces on a d12
    N<-1000000
    roll.d12 <- numeric(length = N)
    for (i in 1:N){
    roll.d12[i] <- sample(d12,1)
    }

    hist(roll.d12,breaks = 10,freq = FALSE,ylim=c(0,1), xlim=c(2,12))


    fd6 <- (1:6) #the faces on a d6
    N<-1000
    roll.fd6 <- numeric(length = N)
    for (i in 1:N){
    roll.fd6[i] <- sample(fd6,1)
    }

    sd6 <- (1:6)
    N<-1000
    roll.sd6 <- numeric(length = N)
    for (i in 1:N){
    roll.sd6[i] <- sample(sd6,1)
    }

    two_rolls<-numeric(length = N)
    for(i in 1:1000){
    two_rolls[i]<-roll.sd6[i]+roll.fd6[i]
    }

    hist(two_rolls,breaks = 10,freq = FALSE,ylim=c(0,1), xlim=c(2,12))

  16. #16
    Community Member Retired_Old_Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    If they don't change the base formula, they need to keep in mind the different rates and which THF and TWF benefit from the different damage stats. Given the vast diversity of stats, and the already complicated itemization problems, that is almost impossible.

    I am not making this up, it is baked in the damage formulas.

    SO what's the point? I read your op. Changes to melee have been ongoing. SSG is making some realistic choices lately (yes I had small piece of tin foil left from 3 years ago)

    You left out S&B builds fyi.

    This has been overlooked for 3 years since SOME of the vanguard stats get a bump (then nerfed) The glancing blow rate and damage for a fully spec'ed and geared dwarf S&B (example) suckks. You want to have this conversation with all the math, you need to include these builds.

    My idea stands, give Great swords and axes a knock-down feature.

    Give the Tempest T5 abilities a better GB rate for whirlwind and cleave attacks.

    That's all that's needed really atm IMHO

    Keep in mind the upcoming changes to casters. The this topic will become more relevant
    Last edited by Lagin; 08-12-2019 at 06:46 PM.

  17. #17
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    PROC TUNING

    The final piece to calibrate, proc chances and proc effects, can follow a similar logic. Here, instead of the damage, you use the chance to proc to calibrate. Suppose we keep the 2 targets equal damage goal. Then, cPr=oAa/2. That is, the chance to proc effects needs to be half the off hand double strike chances. This would apply to things like sneak attack, or the benefits from special attacks. The latter could be discussed.

    THE BENEFITS

    Thoughts?
    You do realize that most TWF based off hand doublestrike chances are 0%? While chance an additional off-hand attack is usually up to 80%.


    Sources of Off-hand Doublestrike
    Perfect Two Weapon Fighting: +10
    Dervish: +25
    Aasimar Scourge iconic PL feat: +2, stacks 3 times
    Vistani: +5 and +5
    https://ddowiki.com/page/Doublestrike


    Additional chances to proc off-hand attack
    Tempest enhancements, second and fifth core ability - 2x +10%
    Shintao enhancements, Deft Strikes and Meditation of War (in Wind Stance)
    Vistani Knife Fighter enhancements, Double Daggers - +20% (daggers only)
    Raid weapon set with two Brilliant Crescents - +20%
    Forest's Versatility - +5%
    https://ddowiki.com/page/Two_Weapon_Fighting

    So for calculation if you are taking the basic values then 80% of 0% = 0

  18. #18
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuneyMunster View Post
    You do realize that most TWF based off hand doublestrike chances are 0%? While chance an additional off-hand attack is usually up to 80%.


    Sources of Off-hand Doublestrike
    Perfect Two Weapon Fighting: +10
    Dervish: +25
    Aasimar Scourge iconic PL feat: +2, stacks 3 times
    Vistani: +5 and +5
    https://ddowiki.com/page/Doublestrike


    Additional chances to proc off-hand attack
    Tempest enhancements, second and fifth core ability - 2x +10%
    Shintao enhancements, Deft Strikes and Meditation of War (in Wind Stance)
    Vistani Knife Fighter enhancements, Double Daggers - +20% (daggers only)
    Raid weapon set with two Brilliant Crescents - +20%
    Forest's Versatility - +5%
    https://ddowiki.com/page/Two_Weapon_Fighting

    So for calculation if you are taking the basic values then 80% of 0% = 0
    Yep, good catch!

    I was basing it off current top TWF builds. Typically those use either Aasimar, tempest or vistani.

    Either way, it is easy to have a minimum value or something like that.

  19. #19
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagin View Post
    SO what's the point? I read your op. Changes to melee have been ongoing. SSG is making some realistic choices lately (yes I had small piece of tin foil left from 3 years ago)

    You left out S&B builds fyi.

    This has been overlooked for 3 years since SOME of the vanguard stats get a bump (then nerfed) The glancing blow rate and damage for a fully spec'ed and geared dwarf S&B (example) suckks. You want to have this conversation with all the math, you need to include these builds.

    My idea stands, give Great swords and axes a knock-down feature.

    Give the Tempest T5 abilities a better GB rate for whirlwind and cleave attacks.

    That's all that's needed really atm IMHO

    Keep in mind the upcoming changes to casters. The this topic will become more relevant
    I left out SWF too. You are right, those are important styles; I used to be pretty intense about S&B builds. However, the basic principles in this thread still apply.

    That's all that's needed really atm IMHO
    Here is were we disagree. The whole point of the first post was to show you how, through the damage formula, different damage stats contribute with different strength to the two styles AT THE MOMENT.

    As long as this is not changed, balancing styles is close to impossible. Every single PrE, feat addition, piece of gear results in indirect imbalancing effects on the two styles.

    Hence, my emphasis on trying to have both styles scale equally from all damage stats.

    This has nothing to do with adding knockdowns and what not; it could be a nice flavor addition, but won't solve the fundamental problem in balancing TWF vS THF (and all the other styles).

  20. #20
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    • At a technical level, I am not sure that the two damage formulas come out to the same amount of damage; what about proc based damage? Think sneak attack.
    • Suppose you manage to make them have the same damage: how does this play differently beyond the cosmetics?
    The key to keeping the formulas output the same is making sure that this Style Factor (the 2 in the 2AD or A2D) is always applied as the last computation and make sure it scale every thing. So for example if you take base to be 4 attacks per second 100 average damage base 50 average damage from sneak attack and say 30 average damage from proc effects.
    • TWF will make 8 attacks at 100+50+30 each on average for 1440 DPS
    • THF will make 4 attacks at 200+100+60 each on average for 1440 DPS
    • SWF will make 3 attacks at 100+50+30 each and 1 attack at 500+250+150 on average for 1440 DPS


    The above will play different and feel different but over time have the same DPS. A Fast attacking style feels and plays different from a Slow attacking style which both feel and play different from a Spike damage style.

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