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  1. #21
    FreeDeeOh PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    While all the other balancing is going on, it would be a good time to nerf divine might and its divine presence/will analogs to be like divine grace and capped on class levels, and to also nerf barb run speed to be also based on barb levels (say 5% + 0.5% per level).
    I actually agree with "nerfing" these abilities (well, not nerfing, but binding them to class), because, frankly, they are and always have been OP for splashes instead of providing needed boosting to the MAIN class that the ability comes from. They also over-reward off-stat builds, which should properly need investment just to COME UP TO strength instead of actually being UNIVERSALLY BETTER than straight strength builds. Hit/damage is THE ONLY THING that strength does (well, and a couple of abilities that lag well behind pretty much every other ability in the game). ALL of the other stats have alternative value. This was done with the whole paladin saving throws thing and I think it overall improved the game dramatically. However, that still leaves the question of what are you going to do about Know the Angles and Deadly Instinct, since they're not tied to any class? I'd honestly say move them up to T5 in those trees (even though my main arti uses KTA . . . I can live without it and get a few points back better spent elsewhere.) They're AT LEAST as powerful as other T5 abilities--more so, in fact, they're often the only abilities that you invest in Falconry or Harper to GET.

    They should also boost the Stunning Blow (and maybe also Trip) feat DC to include your class levels in all "melee" classes, so, Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, and Paladin. That would bring at least a little more tactical access to those classes.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    I actually agree with "nerfing" these abilities (well, not nerfing, but binding them to class), because, frankly, they are and always have been OP for splashes instead of providing needed boosting to the MAIN class that the ability comes from. They also over-reward off-stat builds, which should properly need investment just to COME UP TO strength instead of actually being UNIVERSALLY BETTER than straight strength builds. Hit/damage is THE ONLY THING that strength does (well, and a couple of abilities that lag well behind pretty much every other ability in the game). ALL of the other stats have alternative value. This was done with the whole paladin saving throws thing and I think it overall improved the game dramatically. However, that still leaves the question of what are you going to do about Know the Angles and Deadly Instinct, since they're not tied to any class? I'd honestly say move them up to T5 in those trees (even though my main arti uses KTA . . . I can live without it and get a few points back better spent elsewhere.) They're AT LEAST as powerful as other T5 abilities--more so, in fact, they're often the only abilities that you invest in Falconry or Harper to GET.

    They should also boost the Stunning Blow (and maybe also Trip) feat DC to include your class levels in all "melee" classes, so, Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, and Paladin. That would bring at least a little more tactical access to those classes.
    That's a much better solution than my initial idea. I thought about binding the ability to the highest class level, so it's still a low-hanging fruit for all builds, but it only grows to its full potential on a single class build, but making those abilities T5 definitely fits the bill.
    Alternatively, tying it to the 4th or 5th core might work. Even if it didn't lock out T5s, the extra AP cost would still add some level of control over which builds can afford to fetch the ability.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wh070aa View Post
    Like at this point they are removing features from the game to sell them back.
    The only way to have a complete playable game and still be able to sell things in the future to keep the lights on is to do this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bjond View Post
    This would kill any hope of a new player ever hitting ice DCs on a bard. FVS divine presence is absolutely mandatory to make the bard icings work.
    They were designed that way because of FvS divine presence. Chicken and egg. However they shouldn't be, and to have pure bards be able to have a decent DC without splash bards being too powerful, we need Divine Might analogs to take a nerf.

    You just illustrated my point. The splashes screw up proper character development. In this case, the existence of /1 FvS splash screws up proper bard development. The solution is obvious. Balance the splash and fix the base class.

    -------------

    And while you are at it, bugfix the /2 arti runearm to deal proper damage and fire at the proper DC on the pew pew builds.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 08-11-2019 at 01:41 PM.

  4. #24
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    The entire point of making 1-3 level splashes of a build really strong is so it makes it a decent choice versus the perk of a pure 20 capstone. As it is now, for many builds it is a pretty balanced choice, some in favor of the splash (melees) some in favor of the pure (most casters). If you nerf the level 1 ability, and require a lot of levels for the relative benefit, you will really harm the splashing of builds, and most people will just run around as a pure build.

    Kinda boring meta

  5. #25
    DDO Players Council Renvar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    maybe it's time for multiclassed builds to be retired from DDO.
    This is one of the worst ideas I've seen espoused in a long time on these forums. The flexibility of the character creation, building, and multi-classing system is usually listed as one of the top strengths of the game by most veterans who have stayed around for a decade or longer and are spending money.

    Get rid of it and you will lose a lot of players and revenue as your game becomes cookie-cutter like every other fantasy MMO.

    No thanks.

    There is no way to nerf multi-classing or early class features to balance completionist vets and new players. That is a fool's errand. It can't be done. Nor should it. So, I've invested years into a character, possibly a lot of money, and have spent a lot of time researching and testing build concepts to find one that is optimal, but it is not substantially better than a brand new character playing a basic build? That makes sense how? Progression is the whole point of an MMO. Otherwise, just play single play thru games.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Indoran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Hey, I'm all for balancing lower levels to be more welcoming for retaining newer players.

    Plus, we don't want to nerf in update 43, then just have a buncha power gamers swap to the next OP splash or thing, and nerf them again in update 44 and make them twice as unhappy. Even you have to admit it is just good timing.
    look buddy, some people worked really hard to NOT be balanced. if you don't like it... sorry ddo is just not balanced the way you want.

    and ddo doesn't need that... you need to learn to play.
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  7. #27
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    While all the other balancing is going on, it would be a good time to nerf divine might and its divine presence/will analogs to be like divine grace and capped on class levels, and to also nerf barb run speed to be also based on barb levels (say 5% + 0.5% per level).

    Like reaper points, these provide an insurmountable advantage to /1 splash for veterans over pure classes of newer players in heroic balance.

    For example, a first life pure dragonborn fighter at level 4 would have 20 base + 1 level + 4 pot (enhancement) +2 ship = 27 strength (+8 to hit and damage and tactics).

    However a veteran 2 fighter 1 cleric 1 barb would not only move faster, it would also have 20 base + 4 pot (enhancement) + 5 racial completionist + 3 tome + 2 yugo +2 ship = 36 charisma = 13 strength from divine might.

    The veteran 2 fighter 1 cleric barb would have a 20 base + 1 level + 4 pot (enhancement) + 3 racial completionist + 3 tome + 2 yugo + 2 ship + 13 (divine might) +4 (rage) = 52 strength (+21 to hit and damage and tactics).

    For the same reasons a veteran having 150 hitpoints from reaper points at level 4 was insurmountable to a newer player and was nerfed to 50 hitpoints, +21 to hit and damage and tactics from a faster moving veteran with divine might in heroics should also be brought closer to the +8 and speed of a newer player, and capping divine might analogs and barb run speed by class levels is the way to do so.
    Your examples do not show divine might being an issue. You did not include what it takes to get yugo favor, or racial stat points, or a tome, or a ship buff. Yes I know some of this is easily obtainable, but at some point a veteran had to put in time and effort to earn those rewards. What's the point of putting in any time effort to tr get racial completions to simply be the same as someone that just started the game.

    I really don't think the change to Reaper hit points was more about balancing between veterans and new players but simply lowering the hit points and creating a higher difficulty at lower levels because they were too astronomical for level four.

    As far as Barbarian movement speed goes old Barbarian is a free-to-play class that anyone can choose and anyone can pick one level of Barbarian and get the speed there is no balancing issues that come with one level Barbarian.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    As far as Barbarian movement speed goes old Barbarian is a free-to-play class that anyone can choose and anyone can pick one level of Barbarian and get the speed there is no balancing issues that come with one level Barbarian.
    Except the obvious one that a veteran isn't using their accumulated power to build a better pure fighter. They are building something else solely to amplify the intended difference in power.

    It's the same with the druid wolf splits currently getting nerfed. Veterans are able to survive with less druid healing, which means the builds they make change to solely amplify the intended difference in power. Which then results in nerfs to the base class and base class design. Sound familiar, like say bards not being designed for appropriate freeze DCs because divine might analog splashes?

    We need to retain new players for the game to exist long term, which means that base class design for newer players on default or basic pure builds needs to be appropriate. That means the the splashes used solely to amplify intended differences in power which screw up base class design need to get nuked.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 08-12-2019 at 12:43 PM.

  9. #29
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Except the obvious one that a veteran isn't using their accumulated power to build a better pure fighter. They are building something else solely to amplify the intended difference in power.

    It's the same with the druid wolf splits currently getting nerfed. Veterans are able to survive with less druid healing, which means the build they make change to solely amplify the intended difference in power. Which then results in nerfs to the base class and base class design. Sound familiar, like say bards not being designed for appropriate freeze DCs because divine might analog splashes?

    We need to retain new players for the game to exist long term, which means that base class design for newer players on default builds needs to be appropriate. That means the the splashes used solely to amplify intended differences in power which screw up base class design need to get nuked.
    So... that means every single multiclass combo that isn't strictly worse than going pure with one class.

    Not cool. Part of what makes DDO great is the fact that we can try out interesting combinations of things that can make our characters better (or worse) based on our own choices.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    So... that means
    Exactly what I said:

    That means the the splashes used solely to amplify intended differences in power which screw up base class design need to get nuked.

  11. #31
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Exactly what I said:

    That means the the splashes used solely to amplify intended differences in power which screw up base class design need to get nuked.
    WHICH IS EVERY SINGLE MULTICLASS unless that multiclass makes the build worse.
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  12. #32
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
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    If multiclass builds were "behind" pure builds, we would be having the same discussion except the roles would be reversed. There is always going to be a BIS/Goat current build. There can be only 1, and those have changed over the years.

    Just dont come in here, and talk about balance between a new player and a veteran 10+ year player. There SHOULD be a separation between the two. And there is 14 difficulty levels to help cater to those different levels of skill, time investment, items accumulation, ect......

    I still have yet seen a reason to change barbarian run speed.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    WHICH IS EVERY SINGLE MULTICLASS unless that multiclass makes the build worse.
    The 10/6/4 Endless Fusillade amplifies all power and doesn't screw up the base class design of any base classes. Divine Presence screws up the class design of bard warchanter and amplifies differences in power due to interacting with tomes/pls/etc. See the difference?

    Barb splash amplifies differences in power because the person with more can afford the barb splash, and then get to mobs faster and have more combat time to apply that increased power, while surviving solo due to increased power until others catch up. A newer player that splashes barb and runs ahead just dies. Divine might and barb splash are now screwing up base druid class with nerfs to pure druids because the amplified power difference of a veteran that can survive on such a splash build with reduced druid healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Not cool. Part of what makes DDO great is the fact that we can try out interesting combinations of things that can make our characters better (or worse) based on our own choices.
    It would be, but as evidenced by the druid nerfs to come they can't put interesting combinations of things at low levels because people will multiclass them together to over perform and amplify differences in power, resulting in nerfs to base classes making them uninteresting (EG. bards that can't freeze because their DC doesn't work and druids wolves that don't attack fast unless they have one specific T5 ability). At this point in DDO when characters have so much accumulated power to amplify, if you want interesting, multi-classing has to end.

    Think simply. Is it interesting for the rogue assassin in the group that the 1 arti X warlock with a ton of accumulated power both traps and kills the dungeon?
    Last edited by Tilomere; 08-12-2019 at 10:47 PM.

  14. #34
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    The 10/6/4 Endless Fusillade amplifies all power and doesn't screw up the base class design of any base classes. Divine Presence screws up the class design of bard warchanter and amplifies differences in power due to interacting with tomes/pls/etc. See the difference?

    Barb splash amplifies differences in power because the person with more can afford the barb splash, and then get to mobs faster and have more combat time to apply that increased power, while surviving solo due to increased power until others catch up. A newer player that splashes barb and runs ahead just dies. Divine might and barb splash are now screwing up base druid class with nerfs to pure druids because the amplified power difference of a veteran that can survive on such a build with reduced druid healing.
    A newer player with any class split that runs ahead just dies. The barb splash is not the cause. Even some veteran players die running ahead. ????

    Some players have an amazing ability to morph, twist and otherwise mangle 3 separate classes, there creating something that nobody else could see as a finished build. These players are just as amazing as the builds they create. And not only do they have this ability to build, but these players can also take these builds into quests, and dominate.

    However, it is true that there are many players that might be able to replicate said build, but even with matches and gasoline, they still could not build a fire. Ultimately, one of the ways these lesser than par players think about balance, is to just try to bring the top players down to there level. Because that might be easier than trying to reach their.

    Let the devs deal with the balance. And let the good players excel, and let the rest attempt to not drown.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunker View Post
    Some players have an amazing ability to morph, twist and otherwise mangle 3 separate classes, there creating something that nobody else could see as a finished build. These players are just as amazing as the builds they create. And not only do they have this ability to build, but these players can also take these builds into quests, and dominate.
    That single sentence made me think of another player on the forum, that built this whole stream of character builds on the premise that he wanted to have Soundburst available on all of them, no matter what the rest of the build looked like.
    Are you really trying to describe Tilo here? Because you kinda did! XD

  16. #36
    Community Member Bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    That single sentence made me think of another player on the forum, that built this whole stream of character builds on the premise that he wanted to have Soundburst available on all of them, no matter what the rest of the build looked like.
    Are you really trying to describe Tilo here? Because you kinda did! XD
    I've never quested with Tilo, so I'm not sure he qualifies the entire statement.
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  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    maybe it's time for multiclassed builds to be retired from DDO
    You're out of touch with reality if you think removing a sacred cow from D&D is up for discussion.
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  18. #38
    Community Member Wh070aa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Looking at Update 43 has got me thinking maybe it's time for multiclassed builds to be retired from DDO.
    Multi classing is literally the thing that makes DDO stand out from ****** WoW clone. Other thing is Traps and stealth mechanics in older quests, but they abandoned alternate win conditions and play styles besides run and kill for few years now, so in depth character building is only thing going for this game. Mean that and DnD brand name, and the Sunk Cost Fallacy.

    They really, REALLY need to rework capstones, instead of killing off yet another fun aspect of the game. IMO capstones should be cool active abilities that affect game play a lot. Not this "Oo lets remove abilities that make classes feel unique" stuff you are trying.

  19. #39
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    Please explain how live nerfed druid base class due to splashes is more unique than disabling multi-classing which allows unique low level abilities to be powerful like wolf form.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 08-20-2019 at 02:24 AM.

  20. #40
    FreeDeeOh PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xgya View Post
    That's a much better solution than my initial idea. I thought about binding the ability to the highest class level, so it's still a low-hanging fruit for all builds, but it only grows to its full potential on a single class build, but making those abilities T5 definitely fits the bill.
    Alternatively, tying it to the 4th or 5th core might work. Even if it didn't lock out T5s, the extra AP cost would still add some level of control over which builds can afford to fetch the ability.
    Or, instead of tying it to specific class levels, they could tie it to religious lore/wilderness lore/arcane lore/martial lore feats (I think they should add a martial lore feat for the martial classes--and possibly Rogue since I don't think Rogue gets any other kind of lore). This would open it up for SOME variety but still also have SOME restriction, and there could even be some options like "your number of religious lore feats OR your full stat if you're in X form or Y stance".

    This might be an interesting design idea in general, to get away from binding abilities to class and toward binding them to lore types.

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