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  1. #1
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Default Is the glaring issue with Spellsinger ever going to be addressed?

    Spellsinger is good tree, but it has a very severe flaw: the two tier 5 SLA's are archaic, especially mass hold. Horn of Thunder has its issues but the man problem is Mass Hold Monster. With some of the new changes to the game with this coming update, crowd control is getting a slight re-balance. That's all fine and dandy, but spellsinger bards, in particular, are going to be hit hard by this change.

    • First, I really don't understand why bards don't get mass hold monster as a 6th level spell, anyway. It's one of the three quintessential enchantment spells in the game: Otto's Irresistible Dance, Otto's Sphere of Dancing, and Mass Hold Monster. Bards are all about enchantments and illusions, so I don't understand why they don't get it. Warlocks get it as a spell and they have only 6 spell levels, just like bards. I see no real reason why bards can't have it.
    • The Mass Hold Monster SLA in tier 5 of the spellsinger tree stems from an age of DDO where SLA's were being implemented and were somewhat restrictive. This SLA costs a whopping 6 AP to obtain, costs 50 spell points, and has a dangerously long cooldown of 20 seconds at rank 3. Yes, Mass Hold Monster is a strong spell, but the 20 second cooldown puts them at an extreme disadvantage behind other arcane spellcasters; wizards and warlocks have a 6 second cooldown while sorcerers have a 3.5 second cooldown, and the only difference is theirs costs 20 more spell points if they use quicken and embolden metamagics, which is a drop in the bucket when people easily have 3~7k spell points.
    • With the changes to enchantment duration in reaper mode, this puts spellsinger bard at an impasse. You're giving the spell to bards but ensuring they can't use it as needed like other arcanes, if it fails it goes on a glaringly long cooldown (which sucks further when mobs move around like they do and spells fail due to directional issues), it has a heavy AP cost in an already expensive tree, and the only benefit of it being an SLA is -10 spell point cost from being quickened compared to the actual spell used by other classes. Why is bard penalized so much for using this spell? Spellsinger already gives up a lot of damage potential in order to perform their role (spellsinger damage is really rock bottom), so why make it harder on them?


    Possible solutions:
    - The 6 AP cost is somewhat understandable due to the spell's power, so I guess we can let that slide. I don't like it, but I can accept the reasoning behind it. As an aside, Horn of Thunder has no reason to cost 6 AP; it has nowhere near the power level of Mass Hold Monster.
    - Reduce the spell point cost to 30/20/10 seconds instead of 60/40/20. This makes the cooldown a bit longer than other arcanes (because it's an SLA), but makes it manageable and more forgiving of issues outside of the player's control.
    - Simply add the spell to the bard's level 6 spell list. I honestly see no reason why they shouldn't already have it. This seems like a very easy thing to fix.
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  2. #2
    DDO Players Council Xyfiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Spellsinger is good tree, but it has a very severe flaw: the two tier 5 SLA's are archaic, especially mass hold. Horn of Thunder has its issues but the man problem is Mass Hold Monster. With some of the new changes to the game with this coming update, crowd control is getting a slight re-balance. That's all fine and dandy, but spellsinger bards, in particular, are going to be hit hard by this change.

    • First, I really don't understand why bards don't get mass hold monster as a 6th level spell, anyway. It's one of the three quintessential enchantment spells in the game: Otto's Irresistible Dance, Otto's Sphere of Dancing, and Mass Hold Monster. Bards are all about enchantments and illusions, so I don't understand why they don't get it. Warlocks get it as a spell and they have only 6 spell levels, just like bards. I see no real reason why bards can't have it.
    • The Mass Hold Monster SLA in tier 5 of the spellsinger tree stems from an age of DDO where SLA's were being implemented and were somewhat restrictive. This SLA costs a whopping 6 AP to obtain, costs 50 spell points, and has a dangerously long cooldown of 20 seconds at rank 3. Yes, Mass Hold Monster is a strong spell, but the 20 second cooldown puts them at an extreme disadvantage behind other arcane spellcasters; wizards and warlocks have a 6 second cooldown while sorcerers have a 3.5 second cooldown, and the only difference is theirs costs 20 more spell points if they use quicken and embolden metamagics, which is a drop in the bucket when people easily have 3~7k spell points.
    • With the changes to enchantment duration in reaper mode, this puts spellsinger bard at an impasse. You're giving the spell to bards but ensuring they can't use it as needed like other arcanes, if it fails it goes on a glaringly long cooldown (which sucks further when mobs move around like they do and spells fail due to directional issues), it has a heavy AP cost in an already expensive tree, and the only benefit of it being an SLA is -10 spell point cost from being quickened compared to the actual spell used by other classes. Why is bard penalized so much for using this spell? Spellsinger already gives up a lot of damage potential in order to perform their role (spellsinger damage is really rock bottom), so why make it harder on them?


    Possible solutions:
    - The 6 AP cost is somewhat understandable due to the spell's power, so I guess we can let that slide. I don't like it, but I can accept the reasoning behind it. As an aside, Horn of Thunder has no reason to cost 6 AP; it has nowhere near the power level of Mass Hold Monster.
    - Reduce the spell point cost to 30/20/10 seconds instead of 60/40/20. This makes the cooldown a bit longer than other arcanes (because it's an SLA), but makes it manageable and more forgiving of issues outside of the player's control.
    - Simply add the spell to the bard's level 6 spell list. I honestly see no reason why they shouldn't already have it. This seems like a very easy thing to fix.
    I don't take it on my Spellsinger. Not worth the cost imo. Then factor in helpless damage is being reduced. Daze is still useful and I will have two greater shouts now. I get by using Glacial and focusing on Evocation dcs.

  3. #3
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    Wholeheartedly agree. The ap and sp costs are too high, and even more than that, the cooldown is way too long. I take mass hold on my spellsinger, but I've been thinking of switching to evo spec to make sound burst and glacial wrath more reliable vs depending on a 20 sec cooldown mass hold.

    If it were up to me, I'd give bards mass hold as a spell, change the sla to 1/1/1 ap, AND change the cooldown to 30/20/10.

  4. #4
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    I don't take it on my Spellsinger. Not worth the cost imo. Then factor in helpless damage is being reduced. Daze is still useful and I will have two greater shouts now. I get by using Glacial and focusing on Evocation dcs.
    The issue is that saying "do something else" doesn't fix the problem. It ignores the problem and then it never gets addressed, apparently like it is, right now.
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  5. #5
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    Hello. It seems like the "problem" you are describing is that you have to hit more than 1 button, and you feel you should be able to just spam 1 button over and over and win DDO. I have a lot of experience with that. That 1 button to use is soundburst, but you have to play within a difficulty that 1 button allows your character to win. If you want to increase the difficulty beyond 1 button win DDO, you will have to look at other abilities such as:

    You can permanently AoE lock down mobs by rotating between dire charge and burst of glacial wrath.

    You can alternatively or in addition AoE lock down and kill mobs with AoE fear spells and LGS Salt with capstone wail.

    You can alternatively or in addition AoE lock down mobs with mass hold SLA and disco balls.

    You can alternatively or in addition AoE lock down mobs with bard song.

    Bards aren't master of anything, which means they don't have a 1 button win ability like mass hold. Play a sorc if that's what you want.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 07-26-2019 at 08:36 PM.

  6. #6
    DDO Players Council Xyfiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    The issue is that saying "do something else" doesn't fix the problem. It ignores the problem and then it never gets addressed, apparently like it is, right now.
    All I can say is I brought it up to the PC recently. Devs know about. I don't think it will be before things we know they are working on: Savants, Archmage, Kotc, etc. I don't even think all of those will be this year.

  7. #7
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Hello. It seems like the "problem" you are describing is that you have to hit more than 1 button, and you feel you should be able to just spam 1 button over and over and win DDO. I have a lot of experience with that. That 1 button to use is soundburst, but you have to play within a difficulty that 1 button allows your character to win. If you want to increase the difficulty beyond 1 button win DDO, you will have to look at other abilities such as:

    You can permanently AoE lock down mobs by rotating between dire charge and burst of glacial wrath.

    You can alternatively or in addition AoE lock down and kill mobs with AoE fear spells and LGS Salt with capstone wail.

    You can alternatively or in addition AoE lock down mobs with mass hold SLA and disco balls.

    You can alternatively or in addition AoE lock down mobs with bard song.

    Bards aren't master of anything, which means they don't have a 1 button win ability like mass hold. Play a sorc if that's what you want.
    This is the kind of post I hate. I'm not looking for a 1 button build. If I did I would play a warlock. My bard is reaper 10 capable when he's at cap with enchantment DC's between 114~121ish depending on temporary buffs and pots, and evocation and necromancy in the low 100's. I don't need a lecture on how to play a bard, thank you. You know what you can do with your sarcasm and snide attitude.

    Spellsinger gives up so much in terms of damage output that they have healbot dps. It's not like they can mass hold and then nuke an entire group of enemies out of orbit like a sorcerer and then be ready to do it again within 5 seconds. That their mass hold has a 20 second cooldown is completely unjustified. Directional errors screw bards over when a mob moves just 1 pixel to the side and the spell misses entirely, placing it on a long cooldown. Targeting a mob that suddenly gets instakilled by the trigger happy warlock puts your mass hold on a long cooldown. It's situations like these that just don't need to happen, and they're beyond the player's control.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    This is the kind of post I hate. I'm not looking for a 1 button build.
    So you aren't asking for Mass Hold SLA reduced cool downs and to add it to the bard spell book so you can spam it and win DDO basically with 1 button like the sorc you bring up?

    Because it kinda seems like you are:

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Spellsinger is good tree, but it has a very severe flaw: the two tier 5 SLA's are archaic, especially mass hold. ...the man problem is Mass Hold Monster.

    [LIST][*]First, I really don't understand why bards don't get mass hold monster as a 6th level spell, anyway.
    [*]The Mass Hold Monster SLA in tier 5 of the spellsinger tree stems from an age of DDO where SLA's were being implemented and were somewhat restrictive. This SLA costs a whopping 6 AP to obtain, costs 50 spell points, and has a dangerously long cooldown of 20 seconds at rank 3. Yes, Mass Hold Monster is a strong spell, but the 20 second cooldown puts them at an extreme disadvantage behind other arcane spellcasters; wizards and warlocks have a 6 second cooldown while sorcerers have a 3.5 second cooldown...
    [*]With the changes to enchantment duration in reaper mode, this puts spellsinger bard at an impasse. You're giving the spell to bards but ensuring they can't use it as needed like other arcanes,


    - Reduce ... to 30/20/10 seconds instead of 60/40/20.

    - Simply add the spell to the bard's level 6 spell list.
    You aren't asking for anything other than to spam 1 button (ok 2 if you count an SLA and base spell as different) more often. That is how sorc is built, since it has faster cool downs and mana to do so.

    You said mass hold spam was needed, so I didn't think you were aware of other options and was just trying to help toss out options since the shout option was already given.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 07-27-2019 at 12:20 AM.

  9. #9
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    So you aren't asking for Mass Hold SLA reduced cool downs and to add it to the bard spell book so you can spam it and win DDO basically with 1 button like the sorc you bring up?

    Because it kinda seems like you are:



    You aren't asking for anything other than to spam 1 button (ok 2 if you count an SLA and base spell as different) more often. That is how sorc is built, since it has faster cool downs and mana to do so.

    You said mass hold spam was needed, so I didn't think you were aware of other options and was just trying to help toss out options since the shout option was already given.
    I didn't ask for both the SLA to be reduced AND the spell to be given. If the spell was actually given to bards then the SLA could be removed (perhaps replaced with dominate monster or something of that sort). If the SLA cooldown was reduced, then we wouldn't need the actual spell. I wasn't asking for some 3.5 second mass hold that I could then spam nukes on it (which bard can't do) but 20 seconds is unreasonable. Bard doesn't have the damage of other arcanes and doesn't have instakills outside a mostly-thematic wail that really isn't super useful in high difficulty and is necromancy-based.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Bjond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Spellsinger gives up so much in terms of damage output that they have healbot dps. It's not like they can mass hold and then nuke an entire group of enemies out of orbit like a sorcerer and then be ready to do it again within 5 seconds.
    I've tried to play as a pure SS/Evoker/Holder. Your DPS is almost zeroed in epics. Heal-bot is a really good description of what you are. IMHO, the "spell casting bard" style is so broken it's non-viable. Personally, I'd have "fixed" this by replacing the SS "dps" SLAs (which are a joke/tease that don't do dps) with SLAs more useful to a bard that is using the things that do work well, such as dire charge and the WC tree's icings; ie. I'd give SS SLAs for sleet, icestorm, and one of the fogs -- improve the melee support aspects and just give up on the joke/tease SLAs.

    The problem is that suggestion would totally neuter H.Pudding's style. Sorry, after trying that style myself, I thought anyone that also tried it would give up and punt it. I do understand the desire to make a challenging build work, though. The problem with an improved spell-book is that it would make the more common icing-bard style much more powerful. I love my icing bard, but giving her the heal spell would be a bit over the top.

    If people think making HP's style more fun and perhaps viable for folks that don't want to put in the level of grind to get where he is, I'd suggest adding more useful SLAs to the SS tree and reducing the AP cost, tier, and CD for the Mass Hold. As a DC spell, there is no way an icing bard could make it work; you have to go all-out on DC gear to stick that. So, it only shores up the SS-caster. Follow up with similar things that only improve a caster-geared SS. There is a TON of useless fluff in the SS tree that could be replaced with SLAs that could only be used by a DC caster, would fit the bard theme, and greatly enhance that style without being unbalancing.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post

    • First, I really don't understand why bards don't get mass hold monster as a 6th level spell, anyway. It's one of the three quintessential enchantment spells in the game: Otto's Irresistible Dance, Otto's Sphere of Dancing, and Mass Hold Monster. Bards are all about enchantments and illusions, so I don't understand why they don't get it. Warlocks get it as a spell and they have only 6 spell levels, just like bards. I see no real reason why bards can't have it.

    ...
    - Simply add the spell to the bard's level 6 spell list. I honestly see no reason why they shouldn't already have it.

    You're right, you don't understand it. But it's really pretty simple:
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/bardSpells.htm#sixthLevelBardSpells
    Simply adding it to the Bard spell list is not appropriate or balanced or consistent with D&D lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post


    • The Mass Hold Monster SLA in tier 5 of the spellsinger tree stems from an age of DDO where SLA's were being implemented and were somewhat restrictive. This SLA costs a whopping 6 AP to obtain, costs 50 spell points, and has a dangerously long cooldown of 20 seconds at rank 3. Yes, Mass Hold Monster is a strong spell, but the 20 second cooldown puts them at an extreme disadvantage behind other arcane spellcasters; wizards and warlocks have a 6 second cooldown while sorcerers have a 3.5 second cooldown, and the only difference is theirs costs 20 more spell points if they use quicken and embolden metamagics, which is a drop in the bucket when people easily have 3~7k spell points.

    ...
    - Reduce the spell point cost to 30/20/10 seconds instead of 60/40/20. This makes the cooldown a bit longer than other arcanes (because it's an SLA), but makes it manageable and more forgiving of issues outside of the player's control.
    It is a fairly long cooldown on the SLA. Somewhat reducing the cooldown and/or SP cost would be reasonable.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post

    You're right, you don't understand it. But it's really pretty simple:
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/bardSpells.htm#sixthLevelBardSpells
    Simply adding it to the Bard spell list is not appropriate or balanced or consistent with D&D lore.


    Consistency with lore: In first edition, bards were a combination of fighter / rogue / druid. In later editions, bards gained arcane spells, becoming full caster with 9th level spells in 5th edition. Bards already have several enchantment spells. I don't see how it would be inconsistent with lore.
    Balanced: What kind of bard build do you have in mind that would be unbalanced with Mass Hold was a regular sixth level bard spell?
    Appropriate: In DDO, bards have the reputation of being the ultimate CC casters. Why would it be inappropriate if bards had easier access to this spell?

  13. #13
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjond View Post
    I've tried to play as a pure SS/Evoker/Holder. Your DPS is almost zeroed in epics. Heal-bot is a really good description of what you are. IMHO, the "spell casting bard" style is so broken it's non-viable. Personally, I'd have "fixed" this by replacing the SS "dps" SLAs (which are a joke/tease that don't do dps) with SLAs more useful to a bard that is using the things that do work well, such as dire charge and the WC tree's icings; ie. I'd give SS SLAs for sleet, icestorm, and one of the fogs -- improve the melee support aspects and just give up on the joke/tease SLAs.

    The problem is that suggestion would totally neuter H.Pudding's style. Sorry, after trying that style myself, I thought anyone that also tried it would give up and punt it. I do understand the desire to make a challenging build work, though. The problem with an improved spell-book is that it would make the more common icing-bard style much more powerful. I love my icing bard, but giving her the heal spell would be a bit over the top.

    If people think making HP's style more fun and perhaps viable for folks that don't want to put in the level of grind to get where he is, I'd suggest adding more useful SLAs to the SS tree and reducing the AP cost, tier, and CD for the Mass Hold. As a DC spell, there is no way an icing bard could make it work; you have to go all-out on DC gear to stick that. So, it only shores up the SS-caster. Follow up with similar things that only improve a caster-geared SS. There is a TON of useless fluff in the SS tree that could be replaced with SLAs that could only be used by a DC caster, would fit the bard theme, and greatly enhance that style without being unbalancing.
    Eh, spellsinger is amazing as a spellcaster. Yes, your dps is rock bottom in epics, but your crowd control, healing, and buff/support goes through the roof, and in several months I've only seen 2 other spellsingers at cap on Argo that can do what we do. It's not a solo-friendly build, but you become one heck of a support. My spellsinger is r10 capable in Sharn quests, both healing and CC (preferably not at the same time, multitasking two vital roles in R10 is dangerous), but this 20 second cooldown is unjustified. All I'm saying is 20 seconds is a long time for an SLA attached to a tree that already has low dps, especially when that tree is built around enchantment/evocation crowd control.

    Again, this isn't some sorcerer where you can spam mass hold and fireball/chain lightning at the same time for tons of helpless damage asking for a 1 second mass hold SLA. This is a support class asking for reasonable things.

    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    Appropriate: In DDO, bards have the reputation of being the ultimate CC casters. Why would it be inappropriate if bards had easier access to this spell?
    This is exactly my point. Spellsingers are not a dps build in any way, shape, or form: they're known for buffing and crowd control with some ability in healing. That's their thing. A 10 second mass hold sla would be perfectly acceptable to a spellsinger. This isn't about more power, it's about efficiency.
    Last edited by HastyPudding; 08-30-2019 at 09:38 AM.
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  14. #14
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    While we're talking about Spellsinger and Horn of Thunder, how about changing the sound effect so it's an actual horn (archon vuvuzela)instead of another screaming spell? It would be cool too if it had more of an electric effect to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hipparan View Post
    While we're talking about Spellsinger and Horn of Thunder, how about changing the sound effect so it's an actual horn (archon vuvuzela)instead of another screaming spell? It would be cool too if it had more of an electric effect to it.
    The Godzilla scream, maybe? Resonant, pulsing, with just a hint of crackling energy...
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