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  1. #21

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    Severlin et al.,

    Out of curiosity, are there any quests in DDO that are never run anymore by any player on any of the servers? We all know that a number of quests and quest chains are not popular with the community, but is some of the older content now completely untouched? You don't have to indicate which quests are not being run at all, but I would like to know if this situation exists.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    2. Bravery Streak for both hard and elite will change to Hard Dungeons Completed and Elite Dungeons Completed. Bravery streaks will no longer end; they won’t have a chance for ending, you won’t need to turn off your streak (or worse, mess your streak up by forgetting), and you can freely play at any difficulty without the count resetting.

    The bravery streak bonus will be moved into the standard bravery bonus at its full value. We will still track how many times you finish hard and elite dungeons in the UI, but you are no longer required to playing 5 dungeons in a row at a specific difficulty to build a streak. More on this below.

    Bravery Bonus will be based on the base XP for the dungeon as if you were on elite, even if you are playing on hard. Right now the Bravery streak is, at full bonus, 70% of the base XP on Elite. We are increasing that bonus to 100% so players will get more XP the first time they play each quest.

    To clarify, playing a quest on Elite/Reaper will give the full 100% bonus. Playing the quest on Hard gives 50% of the Bravery bonus XP BUT you can reclaim the rest of the Bravery XP if you play it later on Elite. So the most efficient way to get the Bravery XP bonus is to play on Elite, but if you help a friend on Hard you can still get the rest of the difference on Elite/Reaper later. Yes, it is less efficient but you don’t *lose* the bonus.

    To clarify how the new totals work: as previously, when you complete a Hard dungeon quest your Hard Dungeons completed total will increase. When you complete a Elite or Reaper dungeon quest your Hard and Elite totals will be increased.
    I take it that the Bravery Marshall NPC will be removed from the Guild airships and the Hall of Heroes once these changes go live?

  3. #23
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    Tower of Frost, I just want to point out specifically as one of the most egregious offenders in terms of XP/min for its level. It needs like a 400% increase. Its giving 15,000 for about a 15 minute completion in Epic - that's baseline for HEROIC quests.

    I consider 1k xp/min baseline for Heroic (for L12-18...scaled slightly up and down above and below that range). 5k xp/min baseline for Epic. I dont know why you cant just balance ALL quest XP along those parameters, then adjust for relative difficulty/scaling compared to other quests at-level, annoyances like a long run-out or flagging requirements or failure conditions or excessive platforming, non-XP rewards like named loot or currency, etc.

    If every quest was equally worthwhile, then every quest would get run a lot more. The quests that are the most popular are ones with XP/min above the curve. The ones that never get run are because their XP/min is significantly lower. That's really the only factor that plays into it for 90% of the quests. If you want to normalize quest participation, normalize XP/min

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Human_Cypher View Post
    I take it that the Bravery Marshall NPC will be removed from the Guild airships and the Hall of Heroes once these changes go live?
    Correct! He fell off of an airship and died. RIP Kranston Bell, you will (not) be missed.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  5. #25
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    Just fix the optionals so they ransack like end rewards and adjust experience as needed if you feel this needs solving. Making ransack permanent through a life is a bad way to get a diversity of quests played. As mentioned above, it will prevent people from staying in epic for more than a few lives.

    Additionally, this feels like a problem that doesn't really need solving. What is the harm if a subsection of people want to run the same quest over and over again to level faster. It harms no one and you can entice people away with the other experience improvements you are making without beating this leveling style to death.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Correct! He fell off of an airship and died. RIP Kranston Bell, you will (not) be missed.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Correct! He fell off of an airship and died. RIP Kranston Bell, you will (not) be missed.
    Can we at least have an in-game memorial for him after so many years of loyal service?


  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Human_Cypher View Post
    Can we at least have an in-game memorial for him after so many years of loyal service?

    He lives on in the Test Dojo. Just become ethereal and walk through the north wall, he's next to the fountain.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  9. #29
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    If only 1st time bonus/BB reset on Epic Reincarnation. It would make the choice of staying in epic levels while doing 20x raids bearable.

  10. #30
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    Greetings!
    3. Increase the Daily bonus.

    To further encourage a diversity of dungeons, the Daily bonus will be increased from 20% to 25% for Heroic dungeons, and 30% for Epic dungeons.


    4. Move some of the XP from the First time bonus, which is per difficulty, to the Bravery bonus.

    It is not our goal to increase outgoing XP; to pay for the above increases we plan on lowering the First time bonus per difficulty.

    Normal difficulty will decrease from 25% to 10%.
    Hard difficulty will decrease from 40% to 20%.
    Elite difficulty will decrease from 80% to 45%.
    Reaper difficulty will decrease from 120% to 75%.

    What does this mean:
    ~ On Normal, Hard, and Elite the first time through a Heroic dungeon including the daily bonus will be the same as it is on live. The first time through Epic dungeons will actually give slightly more XP.
    ~ This makes the practice of repeating dungeons on each difficulty less attractive than finding a new dungeon.
    I must be missing something here. If the Daily bonus is increasing by +5% for Heroic dungeons, and Normal difficulty is decreasing by 15%, how does that give the same XP for a Heroic dungeon on Normal?

    Also, a note about bravery bonus: a true bravery bonus should be for players who have never played a particular quest ever who are playing it the first time through on a harder difficulty (bravely venturing forth into the unknown!). However, aside from new adventure pack releases, this primarily applies to new players to DDO...who can't unlock Hard or Elite difficulty on their own for a first play-through (unless they're VIP). A bit ironic?

  12. #32
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    Might I suggest adding Redfang and Garrison's Missing pack to the list of quests that need XP increases? Garrison's is deceptively long for a harbor quest, and Redfang can be challenging for new players and I've always felt the XP/time ratio is pretty terrible. I like to do a lot of quests while leveling (even these old F2P ones) but these two always make me wish I was doing something else.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    1. We are going to make some XP changes to specific quests to bring them into line with their completion time and difficulty. Four quests will have their XP lowered, while many quests will have their XP raised. The exact list has been added to the bottom of this post.
    Ok. These changes happen from time to time. Raising the XP in the quests listed is a good change. It is unnecessary to lower the XP of the quests listed.

    2. Bravery Streak for both hard and elite will change to Hard Dungeons Completed and Elite Dungeons Completed. Bravery streaks will no longer end; they won’t have a chance for ending, you won’t need to turn off your streak (or worse, mess your streak up by forgetting), and you can freely play at any difficulty without the count resetting.
    This change is spot-on. Very healthy for the game, so thank you.

    3. Increase the Daily bonus.
    Another excellent change.

    4. Move some of the XP from the First time bonus, which is per difficulty, to the Bravery bonus.
    Not necessary. As others have pointed out, this nets out to an overall loss in XP for those who run R1+ from 1-30.

    5. Optional objectives will ransack, and that ransack will not reset over time; they are essentially being changed to a play-through bonus with ransack that only resets with a Racial, True and Iconic Reincarnations. To compensate, optional objectives will ransack more slowly. With this change we can add more, or make more of them have greater rewards. Note: the reduced rate at which optional objectives ransack has not yet been changed on the test server.
    Horrible change. Why punish those who run "dailies"? At the start of the post you stated:
    We have been analyzing our data on quests, completion times, and completion numbers, and we have put together some changes we feel will improve players game experience throughout their leveling adventures. We realize that experience points and how players earn them can greatly affect a player's game experience, so we want players to understand the changes.
    (bold mine)

    This change suggests that there's a "right way" to level in DDO and those of us who enjoy daily runs in the evening aren't playing correctly. How many times per life is it appropriate to run a quest? Only once? Twice? What's the target here? This change is unnecessary and will not accomplish the goals as stated above. Some folks enjoy continuing to earn XP at cap, why punish them for not TRing?


    6. The over and under level bonuses for Reaper will be changed to be the same as Elite. This will reduce confusion and provide a wider grouping level.
    This is the best change in the entire list. This will help to improve the health of the game and the player experience.

    The only other thing really missing here is removing the increased XP for 2nd life +. This would really help those who are new to the game or enjoy alt-play and have tons of class/racial TRing ahead of them. Since we are talking XP revamp, it's a great time to dig deep to discuss this topic.
    Last edited by karatemack; 07-24-2019 at 08:50 PM.
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  14. #34
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    I was really hoping for a new top heavy epic curve... but these changes to base xp seem appropriate. I'd say no need to nerf von3 directly the optional ransack already killed it. I'm not happy with reaper first time going down. I do like a first time hard not punishing you.

  15. #35
    Community Member TitusOvid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post

    First, I want to explain our goals with these changes:
    ~ The rate of leveling overall should not drop for an average player who is playing a lot of different quests.
    Good.

    ~ Players should be rewarded for playing a wide variety of quests instead of repeating quests over and over.
    Why force players to run quests they don't like for one reason or another?

    ~ Players should not be punished for breaking their regular play pattern to join a group or to help out friends and guild mates.
    Good

    ~ We want to close some loopholes for optional objectives.
    Why does it have to effect ALL objectives? Why not just the problematic ones? I can't imagine there are a lot of them.

    snip
    we hope that more dungeons are viable for normal experience gains, and that playing through a wide variety of dungeons is more appealing and playing dungeons over and over is less appealing.
    It would be possible to achieve this with Favors, too. I know there was an overhaul not long ago. Pick it up from there. Give +2% for every 1k favor for example. But leave the xp of daillies alone.

    1. We are going to make some XP changes to specific quests to bring them into line with their completion time and difficulty. Four quests will have their XP lowered, while many quests will have their XP raised. The exact list has been added to the bottom of this post.
    Balance XP is alright. But do it on an objective system and not because you don't like the concept of dailies.

    2. Bravery Streak for both hard and elite will change to Hard Dungeons Completed and Elite Dungeons Completed. Bravery streaks will no longer end; they won’t have a chance for ending, you won’t need to turn off your streak (or worse, mess your streak up by forgetting), and you can freely play at any difficulty without the count resetting.

    The bravery streak bonus will be moved into the standard bravery bonus at its full value. We will still track how many times you finish hard and elite dungeons in the UI, but you are no longer required to playing 5 dungeons in a row at a specific difficulty to build a streak. More on this below.

    Bravery Bonus will be based on the base XP for the dungeon as if you were on elite, even if you are playing on hard. Right now the Bravery streak is, at full bonus, 70% of the base XP on Elite. We are increasing that bonus to 100% so players will get more XP the first time they play each quest.

    To clarify, playing a quest on Elite/Reaper will give the full 100% bonus. Playing the quest on Hard gives 50% of the Bravery bonus XP BUT you can reclaim the rest of the Bravery XP if you play it later on Elite. So the most efficient way to get the Bravery XP bonus is to play on Elite, but if you help a friend on Hard you can still get the rest of the difference on Elite/Reaper later. Yes, it is less efficient but you don’t *lose* the bonus.

    To clarify how the new totals work: as previously, when you complete a Hard dungeon quest your Hard Dungeons completed total will increase. When you complete a Elite or Reaper dungeon quest your Hard and Elite totals will be increased.
    Given that the math is adding up, this is a good change. Thank you.

    3. Increase the Daily bonus.

    To further encourage a diversity of dungeons, the Daily bonus will be increased from 20% to 25% for Heroic dungeons, and 30% for Epic dungeons.

    4. Move some of the XP from the First time bonus, which is per difficulty, to the Bravery bonus.

    It is not our goal to increase outgoing XP; to pay for the above increases we plan on lowering the First time bonus per difficulty.

    Normal difficulty will decrease from 25% to 10%.
    Hard difficulty will decrease from 40% to 20%.
    Elite difficulty will decrease from 80% to 45%.
    Reaper difficulty will decrease from 120% to 75%.

    What does this mean:
    ~ On Normal, Hard, and Elite the first time through a Heroic dungeon including the daily bonus will be the same as it is on live. The first time through Epic dungeons will actually give slightly more XP.
    ~ This makes the practice of repeating dungeons on each difficulty less attractive than finding a new dungeon.
    Other threads commented on the math already.

    5. Optional objectives will ransack, and that ransack will not reset over time; they are essentially being changed to a play-through bonus with ransack that only resets with a Racial, True and Iconic Reincarnations. To compensate, optional objectives will ransack more slowly. With this change we can add more, or make more of them have greater rewards. Note: the reduced rate at which optional objectives ransack has not yet been changed on the test server.
    At least make it reset after ETR, too.

    6. The over and under level bonuses for Reaper will be changed to be the same as Elite. This will reduce confusion and provide a wider grouping level.
    snip
    I encourage this for grouping. But it takes away a bit of reaper challange and you open up a new can of worms.
    If I can run a quest now 2 lvl above base, I will likely increase my skulls to hold onto the challange. That will result in more rxp. That is awesome. And then 6 month later you will add another grind or destroy quests like Amber because people are lvling too fast in reaper trees. No, thank you.

    Cheers,
    Titus.


    EDIT: I would give droid327 +1 for his 1st post in here, if I could.
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  16. #36
    Community Member TitusOvid's Avatar
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    I'd like to add that you forgot to up the xp of a couple of raids. Overall I say those need an increase most of all.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    First, I want to explain our goals with these changes:
    ...
    ~ Players should be rewarded for playing a wide variety of quests instead of repeating quests over and over.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    3. Increase the Daily bonus.
    Did you read your own goal, about a wide variety? Why are you instead incentivizing repeating quests every day?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    To further encourage a diversity of dungeons, the Daily bonus will be increased from 20% to 25% for Heroic dungeons, and 30% for Epic dungeons.
    That doesn't make any sense. Rewarding people for repeating quests every day is encouraging less diversity.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 07-24-2019 at 10:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  18. #38
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    Sev,

    Can you please give a few examples of the new level spread for Reaper? For example hard and fast: Lvl X Quest can be run at 'such and such' level range. Include the specific levels where Reaper XP will scale.

    You will recall when Reaper first came out you guys said over and over again how it was going to be, we understood what was said, and then it was different on live.

    Just want to be sure you are saying what you think you are saying and we understand EXACTLY what you are saying this time.

    Thanks.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harkmar View Post
    *snip*

    So if the goal is to keep the numbers the same what is reaper going to get to close up this gap? Am I just missing something?
    I thought I was missing something as well when I looked over the numbers; so I went to Live and Lamannia to compare, and well...

    Last edited by Ryethiel; 07-24-2019 at 10:50 PM. Reason: Typo!
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeCash View Post
    5. Optional objectives will ransack, and that ransack will not reset over time; they are essentially being changed to a play-through bonus with ransack that only resets with a Racial, True and Iconic Reincarnations. To compensate, optional objectives will ransack more slowly. With this change we can add more, or make more of them have greater rewards. Note: the reduced rate at which optional objectives ransack has not yet been changed on the test server.

    Why not reset on ER as well? If you only play in epics and only do ER's, after a few reincarnations, you'll be getting no optional XP's from any quest.
    I'm glad to see that efforts are being made to promote quest diversity. Thumbs up! However, I want to add my voice to the many that already commented on this particular change. There really needs to be a reset after ER as well, or you are diminishing quest diversity, and certainly making epic quests less fun in groups as many (those who remain in epics and ER) will want to permanently skip optionals that are ransacked for them. This change seems to against your stated goals. Please give this strong consideration.
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