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  1. #41
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    Default Ascendant Shroud

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    snip
    CORES:

    • Core 1: Dark Reaping: For each Core Ability in this tree you get +5 Negative Spell Power, +5 Universal Spell Power, and +3 Negative Healing Amplification.
    • Core 2: Pale Shroud: Multiselector: All forms grant 100% critical hit resistance and allow you to be healed by Negative Energy. You take 50% healing from Positive, and double damage from Light. You are considered undead.
      • Shroud of the Zombie: While in this form, +4 Constitution, +2 Strength, +20% damage with attacks but you attack 20% slower than normal. You gain +3 PRR, +3 MRR.
      • Shroud of the Vampire: While in this form, +2 Charisma, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom. +3 Perform skill, and your melee and unarmed attacks have a chance to heal you for 1d3 Negative Energy damage per Wizard Level.
      • Shroud of the Wraith: While in this form, +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence. Enemy attacks have a 10% chance to miss you due to incorporeality, +1 Sneak Attack Dice, and you gain Feather Falling.
      • Shroud of the Lich: While in this form, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +10 Negative Amplification, +5 Negative Spell Power, and +15 Magical Resistance Rating.

    • Core 3: Multiselector: Improved Shrouding: Pick one of the following abilities that applies while in a Pale Shroud: (Passive: While in a Shroud, you can breathe underwater. +1 Spell Penetration.)
      • Deathly Tough: 25 Maximum Hit Points, +5 PRR
      • Deathly Resistance: 15 Magical Resistance Rating, +2 to all Saves
      • Inflict Weariness: Your attacks inflict 2-9 points of Negative Energy damage to a living target. This scales with 100% Spell Power. Your Vorpal Melee Hits cause Energy Drain, inflicting 1 Negative Level on victims.
      • Haunting in the Dark: +2 Assassinate DCs, +1 Sneak Attack Dice
      • Ghost in the Wind: +10% Incorporeal Miss Chance. (If you are in Wraith Form, this increases your total to 20%).
      • Deathly Power: +10 to Negative Energy Spellpower.
      • +2 Necromancy DC
      • +2 Enchantment DC
      • Undead Chill: +15% bonus to Cold Absorption. You no longer take extra damage from Light.
      • Undead Shock: +15% bonus to Electric Absorption. You no longer take extra damage from Light.
      • Unhallowed Touch: You gain Ghost Touch on all attacks, +5 Hide and Move Silently

    • Core 4: Pick an ability you didn't pick in Core 3. (Passive: +1 Spell Penetration.)
    • Core 5: Pick an ability you didn't pick in Core 3+4 (Passive: +50 Maximum Spell Points, +1 Spell Penetration.)
    • Core 6: Undead Overlord:
      • Active: Greater Death Aura SLA. (Envelops the caster in a sickly aura of negative energy. Living enemies stepping inside the aura take 3 to 12 negative energy damage plus 1 additional point per caster level every two seconds as long as they remain within it. A successful Fortitude save reduces the damage by half. Undead are instead healed by the aura. This aura can affect up to one target per caster level. D&D Dice: Deals 3d4 negative energy damage plus 1 per caster level every two seconds.) (This can be cast simultaneously with Lesser Death Aura and Death Aura).
      • Passive: You gain +4 Intelligence and Deathblock. +10 Negative Healing Amplification. +2 Spell Penetration.


    snip
    [*]Ascendant Shroud: You get bonuses based on your current form:
    • Zombie: While in Zombie Form, +20 Melee Power & 10 PRR. +20% Racial Bonus to maximum Hit Points.
    • Vampire: While in Vampire Form, +1 Enchantment DC. Your melee attacks have a chance to dominate your adversaries. On Hit: Target has a chance to be Paralyzed (Will save vs. DC 20 + INT Mod + Enchantment Spell Bonuses). On Save: -10% Movement and Attack Speed.
    • Wraith: While in Wraith Form, +5% Incorporeality (bringing your total to 20%, or 25% if you have Ghost in the Wind), +2 Sneak Attack Dice. +3% Dodge & Dodge Cap. +10 to Hide and Move Silently.
    • Lich: While in Lich Form, +15 to MRR cap, +10 Negative Spell Power, +10 Cold and Electric Resistance.
    [/LIST]

    snippety, snip."
    Looking over the proposal again and I'm even more dismayed for the lich form :
    To take a T5 we would get +15 MRR cap (so need to slot something to benefit) and the 2 ele res' in exchange for the +2INT on the live version.
    Compound that with on live : +4 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, +1 to DCs of your Necromancy spells, and occasionally gain temporary hit points when damaged. On Melee Hit: Your attack inflicts 2-9 points of Negative Energy damage to a living target.
    Against on proposal : +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +10 Negative Amplification, +5 Negative Spell Power, and +15 Magical Resistance Rating.

    This means, in total, we lose : +2 Int, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, +1 Necro DC, the hp buff and the mellee dmg buff
    This means, in total, we gain : +10 neg heal amp, +15 MMR, +5 neg spell power
    This is standing Ascendant / Improved Shroud (Form+T5). I know which, as a casting wizard, I would prefer!

    Admittedly, we can offset / modify depending on the new Improved Shrouding Cores...at a cost!
    So lets assume we take : +2DC Necro, +2DC Enchant and the On Melee Hit: Your attack inflicts 2-9 points of Negative Energy damage to a living target (just for simplicity) and we get :
    This means, in total, we lose : +2 Int, +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Cha and the hp buff
    This means, in total, we gain : +10 neg heal amp, +15 MMR, +5 neg spell power, +1DC Necro, +2DC Enchant
    This is standing Ascendant / Improved Shroud (Form+T5). The choice becomes admittedly a little harder now, but what makes it easy to choose is I can have almost all of that on Vampire or Wraith PLUS all their inherent goodness since what 'we lose' we lose regardless...

    I see no way around this other than to considerably buff Lich Shroud (both base and especially T5 Ascendant Shroud) or ignore it. I've written enough, hope it stimulates some head scratching!
    Last edited by ned_ellis; 07-26-2019 at 06:50 AM. Reason: grammar

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by lppmor View Post
    Funny you say that, because when I played my last pure Wizard I went with EK and PM and was thinking about ways to improve my melee damage. Then I stopped and said to myself: "Wait, I'm a caster. Melee is just utility for me. I need to focus on my spells.".

    So, seems you are right: PM is lacking casting goodies. Otherwise Archmage will have to cover too much.

    IMO, Tier 4 and Tier 5 deserve a strong caster oriented enhancement. Deathly Versatile is utility. Unholy Avatar only allows you to not be nerfed against undead. Animate Ally is utility. Dark Discorporation is defensive.
    Indeed! I have set-up a melee EK alt and look forward to seeing how it pans out but...where's the pure wizard caster gone?! Possibly they think the newly 'functional' sla's are where it's at? I hope not...

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    [*]Core 2: Pale Shroud: Multiselector: All forms grant 100% critical hit resistance and allow you to be healed by Negative Energy. You take 50% healing from Positive, and double damage from Light. You are considered undead.
    • Shroud of the Zombie: While in this form, +4 Constitution, +2 Strength, +20% damage with attacks but you attack 20% slower than normal. You gain +3 PRR, +3 MRR.
    • Shroud of the Vampire: While in this form, +2 Charisma, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom. +3 Perform skill, and your melee and unarmed attacks have a chance to heal you for 1d3 Negative Energy damage per Wizard Level.
    • Shroud of the Wraith: While in this form, +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence. Enemy attacks have a 10% chance to miss you due to incorporeality, +1 Sneak Attack Dice, and you gain Feather Falling.
    • Shroud of the Lich: While in this form, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +10 Negative Amplification, +5 Negative Spell Power, and +15 Magical Resistance Rating.
    Sad to see the Forms are still locked to level. Was hoping it was just a regular selector.


  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue_Trapper View Post
    Sad to see the Forms are still locked to level. Was hoping it was just a regular selector.

    This is a bug.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  5. #45
    Community Member Rogue_Trapper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    This is a bug.
    Thanks for the quick response!

  6. #46
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    Default Regarding SLA damage

    Regarding the SLAs:
    While 3.5dmg per caster level is not huge, it should be more than the 75 damage at L30 reported in the thread. Perhaps they are just broken and currently do not scale with spell power at all? Has anybody tested this?

    Exactly how much damage free SLAs should do is an open problem, but similar Evo AM and sorc ones aren't doing huge numbers either (3.5-6.5/caster level), they are meant to be cheap fillers. I think somebody claimed PM SLAs actually have no max caster level (EDIT: Maybe that was AM?), which if true should put them fairly close. Also note the new SL9 negative damage nuke.

    One could perhaps attach a negative level to each of the SLAs, that would equate to a 20-30% hp debuff in the first volley, which is pretty much always useful and gives PMs a cheap way to soften up high-DC targets for IKs, similar to AM Enervation SLA.


    Regarding the new Lich form:
    I agree that it looks weak. 10 spell power is trivial end-game. Perhaps give them 10-15% spell crit with negative energy or something like that.

    In general:
    Mainly nice changes. The +2 extra spell pen is a nice boon to first lifers.
    I still feel Wizard is lacking in pure number of IKs compared to warlock/clerics, even FvS, unless they play a gnome w/ the extra illusion DCs and PK SLA. While you can pick PK SLA out of AM, due to its dual saves it is much harder to make it shine w/o gnome.I think the racial advantage is just too great here. On the other hand, Wizards will have slightly higher DCs after the ED changes, so perhaps this weakness of (non-gnome) wizards is needed.
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 07-27-2019 at 02:57 PM.

  7. #47
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    Could I suggest extra spell points while in the lich shroud? Or maybe something like the sharn necro orb: extra Spell points each time you cast a necromancy spell?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delosari View Post
    Could I suggest extra spell points while in the lich shroud? Or maybe something like the sharn necro orb: extra Spell points each time you cast a necromancy spell?
    That would work for me. Anything able o make it a better caster than the other forms. Extra penetration.. extra spell points.. extra DC.. extra cold spellpower.. extra negative spellpower (ACTUAL benefit, not +10)..

  9. #49
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    Default My two cents worth of opinions and suggestions on the proposed PM tree

    1) Swap Dark Reaping and Shroud.* PMs should be able to Shroud right off and not have to wait for 3rd level. Dark Reaping isn't all that useful until 3rd level, which is when they can get LDA and really use that negative spell power.
    2) What is with Deathblock on the final core? Do undead shrouds lose death immunity like they currently have? Does that Deathblock reduce negative healing as intended?
    3) Greater Death Aura should probably be "added to your spellbook" instead of an SLA. As much as I would love the SLA, I think it'll be OP.

    *If shrouds are a bit too powerful for those first two levels, perhaps they could scale up for each core. For example:
    Shroud of the Zombie: While in this form, +1 Constitution, +5% damage with attacks, +1 PRR, and +1 MRR per Pale Master Core you possess. Your attacks are 20% slower.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Careall View Post
    2) What is with Deathblock on the final core? Do undead shrouds lose death immunity like they currently have? Does that Deathblock reduce negative healing as intended?.
    Deathblock is part of the current PM capstone also. You are immune to finger and wail unless the devs are making a change but probably subject to any instakill undead are subject to - implosion, undeath to death, etc. Frequency - very low I would think but it's in the current capstone so there is really no need to take it away.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Deathblock is part of the current PM capstone also. You are immune to finger and wail unless the devs are making a change but probably subject to any instakill undead are subject to - implosion, undeath to death, etc. Frequency - very low I would think but it's in the current capstone so there is really no need to take it away.
    Funny I never noticed that. Now that I think of it, I probably have never taken, or even planned to take, the PM capstone. I guess it wasn't worth it.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Careall View Post
    2) What is with Deathblock on the final core? Do undead shrouds lose death immunity like they currently have? Does that Deathblock reduce negative healing as intended?
    I think the idea is that Deathblock applies even if you're not in undead shrouded form. Maybe the capstone should expand on that:

    In your human form you gain Deathblock, 100% critical hit resistance, and can breathe underwater. You gain ____ Negative Resistance. You are healed by Negative Energy, but it is partly offset by your Negative Resistance.
    __________________
    Shawn

  13. #53
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    Necrotic SLAs should have their cooldowns reduced. 1 second reduction would be a nice start.

    6 second cooldown for Necrotic blast is just too much.

    Cooldowns shoud be 5/4/3 for fully upgraded Necrotic Blast/Bolt/Touch.

    And it wouldn't hurt to give them the same type of debuffs like Chill touch has (some ability damage and special effects on undead).

    Necrotic bolt should be faster and more precise like its light variant in the cleric tree.

    Final core could also grant immunity to level drain on top of deathblock.

    +10 Cold and Electric Resistance for the Lich upgrade makes no sense and should be replaced with something useful.

    +1 Sneak Attack Dice for Wraith form is too focused on rogue multiclassing. This is a wizard tree. Replace that with less threat generation on melee, ranged, and spellcasting so it would be useful to wizards too.

    I noticed that the Cloak of Night removes penalties to light damage with no drawbacks, so that makes the removal of light damage in cores unnecessary (trap choice). Maybe removal of light dmage in cores could be replaced with something useful.

    And finally, 50% positive healing should not be granted off the start. There should be a multiselector in the "Negative Energy Adept" to choose between positive healing possibility and negative healing improvement.

  14. #54
    Community Member Zeklijan's Avatar
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    Are undead traits changed?

    Why are we specificly getting water breathing and death block from cores progression? Aren't undead immune to those things off the get go? (Core 3 and 6)
    Last edited by Zeklijan; 07-28-2019 at 06:38 AM.
    Sorcerer Pass Discussion and Ideas, found here:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...91#post6144091

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeklijan View Post
    Are undead traits changed?

    Why are we specificly getting water breathing and death block from cores progression? Aren't undead immune to those things off the get go? (Core 3 and 6)
    Sometimes, you're not using a shroud. While that happens, you get to keep the deathblock/waterbreathing. Not that you'll see many palemasters outside of their preferred undead forms, but it'll happen.

  16. #56
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    well ... I said the problems of this pass before, and I was ignored, but ... this time more briefly:

    1- SLAs cost too many points and doing too little damage. They are useless now and will be useless after the pass.

    2- Tier 5 is incredibly bad. Three useless SLAs (one because it does too little damage, another because the resurrection scrolls are better and everyone uses scrolls, and the third because a defensive SLA that ends when casting a spell is plain useless) and an improved shroud that It hardly gives any benefit. Very very bad. The weakest tier 5, and by far, of all classes

    3- You have turned the lich into the weakest shroud. There is literally no reason to choose lich. Vampire is better at DC casting. Wraith is better defensively and has the same DC bonuses. Hell, even zombie has a use for tanking (I have to point out that the idea of a wizard doing tank functions gives me hives, the class should be useless for that) Anyway... yourselves, devs. If you want some balance between the shrouds, lich needs something else.

    I am disappointed to see no improvement in this tree to fight undeads. Pale masters should be the undeath masters. Well, yes, unholy avatar, but considering that the dps is not the strong point of the wizards, and the shortage of negative energy spells I would have expected an additional undeath to death SLA, or at least a cooldown reduction of this spell.

    By the way, the "halt undead" spell needs improvement. It is quite inefficient.
    Last edited by Iriale; 07-28-2019 at 07:14 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    2- Tier 5 is incredibly bad. Three useless SLAs (one because it does too little damage, another because the resurrection scrolls are better and everyone uses scrolls, and the third because a defensive SLA that ends when casting a spell is plain useless) and an improved shroud that It hardly gives any benefit. Very very bad. The weakest tier 5, and by far, of all classes
    Agree.

    I still prefer to go Harper to get +1 DC to ALL spells instead of only +1 Necro, also +10 DC buff, and also free Extend to save lots of sp.

    Lower tiers look great. But Pale Master needs something much better at Tier 4 and Tier 5. Maybe something that decreases the cost of Necromancy spells.. Or free Heighten to all Necromancy spells.. Or a proc that adds a buff when you insta-kill something, etc..
    Last edited by lppmor; 07-28-2019 at 08:41 AM.

  18. #58
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    Get rid of the whole spell critical column. Replace it with 1 slot for spell critical. I've never used spell critical bonus. It's a waste.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    "Some of our goals for this pass included:
    [*]Help address concerns of survivability

    ...we believe the positive benefit to survivability and party dynamics is worth the change."
    If you care about survivability, make it +50% damage from light. The only time my pale masters are killed is from double and triple light damage.
    Last edited by Ferrell_Redhill; 07-28-2019 at 11:32 AM.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    [*]Haunting in the Dark: +2 Assassinate DCs, +1 Sneak Attack Dice
    Wizards don't have Assassinate ability. Stop giving bonuses that only apply to OTHER classes.
    Last edited by Ferrell_Redhill; 07-28-2019 at 11:30 AM.

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