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  1. #21
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    First, I want to say that am very happy that SSG has prioritized an ED pass. I am very happy about the changes overall. I welcome anything that promotes more destiny diversity.

    I have particular concerns about the continued viability of Shadowdancer, especially for ranged in the face of the Shiradi improvements, and have voiced those concerns and proposed solutions in this and other threads. I only continue to post because I am a ‘Rogue’ lover, since when it was called a Thief. I feel a very personal connection to the SD tree, it is all of those things that I value, sneak attack, maximizing defenses, bypassing fortification, etc. It was the one thing that I was most excited about when I purchase MOTU and moved into Epics.

    In an effort to be proactive and positive, I want to propose the following additions/changes to Shadowdancer. I have re-read all of the suggestions made in the Official Discussion thread and tried to boil them down to a group of fundamentally important improvements. I have tempered my expectations and I am assuming that no new abilities are possible now, so I am trying to work just within the existing framework of the destiny. My goal is to strengthen SD so that players will be encouraged to run in SD, and not just twist it. I've tried to keep the changes within the spirit of SD. This seems to align with SSGs stated goal of this ED pass. I feel especially strongly about the first two recommendations to the cores, which will help overall but especially address SD being viable for ranged toons, like mechanics, artis, and others, given the new Shiradi benefits. I welcome all feedback on these suggestions, my goal is to keep the conversation going so that the SD changes are given another look. Proposed changes are bolded.


    Cores
    • Shadow Training I: Passive Bonus: You gain +2 Sneak Attack die, +10 Melee and +7 Ranged Power, and +3% fortification bypass for each level of Shadowdancer (Note: there is a lot of support for adding +1 Assassinate but I can’t personally speak to that)
    • Shadow Training IV: In addition to Shadow walk, “you gain 6% profane bonus to your chance to Doublestrike and Doubleshot”. Remove all weapon restrictions. This change helps ranged but was also strongly supported by melee players. For ranged, it allows SD to compete with Shiradi’s Whirling Wrists. Type it the same as Whirling if you don’t want the possibility of a double dip.
    • Shadow Mastery V: You now have Improved Evasion. Keep the ‘on roll of 20’ sneak attack proc. +2 to Assassinate DC’s is a good addition.

    Tier 1
    • Shadow Lance - Please make the animation much faster. In no way is it worth waiting that long for it to start during combat.

    Tier 3
    • Shrouding Strike / Shot (this needs help! A maximum of 3 stacks of Improved Destruction is not attractive, no way it’s worth 3 AP right now): Active Ability: (Cooldown: [40/30/20] seconds) Melee or Ranged Attack: Perform an attack with +[1/2/3]W damage. On hit, you envelope your target in shadows making it vulnerable to sneak attacks for 5 seconds. This gives a little bit of Assassin’s Trick which is so important to all SA toons. Single target only and once every 20 seconds at best, so not OP. This is very similar to Pin, which all ranged toons twist, but actually less powerful since sneak attack is for less time (5 vs 18 sec) and there is no loss of movement for mob. Cooldown is also longer than Pin. Pin is also a Tier 2, and this is Tier 3. In that light, I feel that this is a very modest request.

    Tier 4
    • Improved Invisibility: remove Shrouding Strike/Shot as a prerequisite. This no longer makes sense with the removal of Shadow Charges.

    Tier 5
    • Shadow Manipulation: Change cooldown back to 2 minutes. It was never that great to begin with, already having a save and limited mob types be affected.
    • Executioner’s Strike/Shot: (Cooldown: 30 seconds) Melee or ranged attack: Perform an attack with +4 critical threat range and +1 critical damage multiplier. Scales 400% with melee or ranged power. On hit: You have a 50% chance to kill a target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Character level + INT/DEX modifier + Assassinate Bonus). Even on successful save target takes an additional [50/75/100] damage from this attack. This is very underwhelming at the moment and seems to execute no one in Legendary.

    Tier 6
    • Shadow Form: add Ghost Touch and Immunity to Knockdown. (DDOwiki states that it already includes Ghost Touch, I’m not sure if that is correct or not.)
    • Dark Imbuement - the toughest challenge of all. I am truly glad to see that improvements were made. However, it is still lacking to myself and others. I understand that there is not much flexibility in making big changes to the Epic moment. May I suggest this.

    Dark Imbuement: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 2 minutes) Enchant your melee and ranged attacks with shadowy energy. For 30 seconds, you gain +15 MP/RP and 2 SA die, and all targets are automatically subject to sneak attack damage. All damage scales by 200% MP/RP. You deal an extra 9d6 unholy damage with every strike, scaling with 200% MP/RP, the effective range of your melee attacks increases dramatically, and your ranged attacks have a 30% chance to explode, dealing 18d6 unholy damage to all enemies in a large radius around your target, scaling with 200% RP.

    If all attacks are enchanted with shadowy energy, I think that the sneak attack addition is completely within reason and matches to spirit of the ability and the destiny. I actually think that is still a bad Epic Moment even with this addition. The startup animation must be dramatically shortened as well, waiting that long during combat is a killer.

    EDIT: The new version was underwhelming on Lam testing, I barely noticed any effects other than the explosions. Damage was modest, a tiny fraction of Hunt's End. I added the "all damage scales by 200% MP/RP" to Imbuement above after more testing tonight. It still needs help badly.


    Thank you for taking the time to read my wall of text.
    Last edited by 0ldschool; 07-26-2019 at 01:19 AM.
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith
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  2. #22
    Community Member Paisheng's Avatar
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    Default More Centered Love

    Quote Originally Posted by Cocomajobo View Post
    • Improve the ability for people to play in Destinies that match their Archetype (ranged characters in Shiradi, etc) without significantly hindering the current ability for people to play in Destinies that don't (casters in Shiradi, etc)

    Grandmaster of Flowers
    This tree needed a lot of love. It was only OK for Monks, and really not-great for everyone else.


    • A Dance of Flowers is now 0.25[w]/0.5[w]/1[w], but no longer requires you to be Centered.
    • Running with the Wind now adds 2/4/6% Doublestrike to everyone (no more stance requirement)
    • Hail of Blows now adds +3 melee damage in addition to its doublestrike
    • Walking with Waves no longer requires Ocean stance for its Dodge bonus
    • Standing with Stone no longer requires Mountain Stance for its PRR.
    • Dancing with Flame no longer requires Sun Stance for its (w) bonus.
    • Everything is Nothing moves to a 3 minute cooldown, no longer requires charging.
      • Everything is Nothing now has a smaller detect (double the size of Drifting Lotus, but still smaller than its existing version), and hits a maximum of 6 enemies. This is for both balance and performance reasons, as it significantly taxes the game on use & will now be used more frequently.
    First thanks for all your hard work to improve destinies. Despite some grumbling here and there, I believe the community is going to be very enthused and vibrant playing out in these new destinies.
    Now a couple of notes regarding the GMOf tree with the understanding that you are trying to make better and competitive with LD and make it appealing to many more build and especially make it more than "OK" for monks:


    1. EIN which was spectacular in its grand moment being made into a small death spell. I realize that this ship has sailed in terms of changing it back for your goals of balance and server performance. I know you went from 4 to 6 mobs which helps a bit. It would be a bit more grand if it by-passes death block or at least ignores those with death block and red names when it collects its 6 targets.


    2. Grand Master of Flowers needs to be open to more melees while retaining its monk emphasis. (GMOF is the original DnD title to the highest monk level). Clearly this is a tree you want performing for many other classes, but it seems you have taken away all the special flavor and powers for monk. Is that your goal or should not some additional boons be given to those centered? I believe there should just as in other trees highlight certain races, weapon builds and classes.

    In other Destinies you have specialized powers to Dragonborn with their breath weapons, or in LD Lightning Mace and Anvil of Thunder apply to certain weapons while excluding others including wraps). and in your new designs Two Handed Weapons will gain extra benefits from several tree feats beyond what others are getting from those same feats. These are just a few examples, there are many more. So why not in keeping with this flavoring and bonus abilities throw in some feats for monk or those centered in the tree that bears their name?

    Specific Ideas: Dance of Flowers. You could keep the original 1.5 W for those centered while still offering the 1W to other melees and ranged not centered. You could also extend additional abilities for the 4 stance feats of Running with the Wind, Walking on Waves, Standing with Stone, and Dancing with Flames if centered (applies to more than those just in stance) while maintaining the current powers for those not centered.
    Wind: +1 % melee Alacrity when centered
    Water:+1% Incorporeality when centered
    Earth: + 1% more AC when centered
    Fire: +1% more damage when centered


    These are just a couple ideas and if you are looking for other suggestions to make the GMOF tree shine for monks just a little brighter than others I would happily oblige.

    Again great work and thanks for involving the community in the feedback as always.

  3. #23

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    What's the point with the Master's Blitz multiselector for +50% Dodge when the dodge cap applies? Without Master's Blitz also providing a dodge cap increase, or it ignoring dodge caps altogether, it's a worthless multiselector compared to the 30 PRR alternative.
    Kobeyashi | Ying

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    What's the point with the Master's Blitz multiselector for +50% Dodge when the dodge cap applies? Without Master's Blitz also providing a dodge cap increase, or it ignoring dodge caps altogether, it's a worthless multiselector compared to the 30 PRR alternative.
    You might be correct about that, though a nonzero number of people do take it.

    That said, we don't intend to add cap increase/cap ignorance on this ability, so we're going to leave it alone in the interest of not nerfing the few people who do use its current incarnation.
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  5. #25

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    Perhaps you could update the tooltip so it states Dodge cap applies. There are a nonzero number of people who don't know that. Players shouldn't have to go to the DDO Wiki to get this detail.
    Kobeyashi | Ying

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Perhaps you could update the tooltip so it states Dodge cap applies. There are a nonzero number of people who don't know that. Players shouldn't have to go to the DDO Wiki to get this detail.
    Dodge is always limited by Dodge Cap unless an ability/effect specifically says it doesn't. (Meld into Darkness' tooltip is being fixed in this Update - If you know of others that ignore cap but don't say so, let us know).
    We don't only build for the builds that exist.
    We don't only build for the builds that are good right now.

    The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    Dodge is always limited by Dodge Cap unless an ability/effect specifically says it doesn't. (Meld into Darkness' tooltip is being fixed in this Update - If you know of others that ignore cap but don't say so, let us know).
    That's all well and good - especially if the rule is actually being applied consistently now - but I think there's still an implicit expectation that any skill that singlehandedly grants significantly more than the cap in Dodge will also grant an increase in Dodge Cap. Its very similar to Improved Uncanny Dodge, which iirc DOES ignore your current cap.

    It doesnt really make sense otherwise - why grant 50% Dodge when the baseline cap is 25? Are there players that are increasing their Dodge cap but arent actually capping their Dodge? Is that a strategy you intend and support?

    I get where Dodge Blitz cant totally ignore cap, or it'll pretty much make players unkillable and always be better than PRR Blitz. But there's gotta be a compromise between "broken OP" and "total noob trap". How about this - it grants 50% Dodge and +2 MDB per stack? That way you're still limited by your Dodge Cap, but it becomes much more useful for armor wearers (particularly heavy) who normally would be limited by their MDB (but for whom the PRR version might be diminishing returns). And people arent likely to run with more Dodge than their MDB can support, either, so its not redundant with sensible itemization.

    That provides an option beneficial to both defense archetypes - Light armor/Evasion builds that already run at capped Dodge will get PRR (since they usually have less). Med/Heavy armor tank builds that already have lots of PRR can get their Dodge up to cap (since they usually have less).
    Last edited by droid327; 07-26-2019 at 10:23 AM.

  8. #28
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    I had a lot to comment about EIN when this was first announced and I was pretty critical of the change. I am happy with the result of it moving to 6 mobs. Thank you devs for meeting us halfway (even if it is not seen as grand moment anymore).

    As for the 1W vs. 1.5W, this is not a huge issue as now we have devastating critical.

    These changes will not materially change how I play at all.

    when is this going in? I am in heroics now, but will be in epics in a week probably.

    Thanks,
    Nico

  9. #29
    Community Member Paisheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickodeamous View Post
    I had a lot to comment about EIN when this was first announced and I was pretty critical of the change. I am happy with the result of it moving to 6 mobs. Thank you devs for meeting us halfway (even if it is not seen as grand moment anymore).

    As for the 1W vs. 1.5W, this is not a huge issue as now we have devastating critical.

    These changes will not materially change how I play at all.

    when is this going in? I am in heroics now, but will be in epics in a week probably.

    Thanks,
    Nico
    This tree was just "ok" for monks according to the dev's assessment. What they are proposing has several nerfs and buffs so the tree appears to remain just "Ok" for monks.


    Nerfs:

    1.5W to 1W is still a .5W nerf to monks since it applied to those centered. After all the other W losses from earlier nerfs to monk trees and monk cores, this is just brings one more. I would rather have the .5W back rather than the Devastating Critical....as it applies to all hits rather than just critical hits. Wraps shares the lowest critical range with only a few other weapons (and there are no endgame wraps yet with expanded critical range since you may get Improved Critical as a feat).

    EiN which was seldom used under 12 mobs, and sometimes as large as around 20+, now impacts 6. So 15 min of 6 mobs at 3min = 30 mobs available to EiN. 15 min at say at easy average of 15 mobs is 45 mobs available by the current system. And that disparity would continue to grow. Although they are adding stunning dc to it to make it more effectual, a well built wisdom monk had decent dc. However the area of effect is going to be reduced as well a bit. Overall this in my book still remains a considerable nerf to EiN.


    Buffs


    Scattering of Petals receives a reasonable buff other than the MRR cap isn't expanded during the 12secs in this tier 6 ability.

    Drifting Lotus and others in the left line now benefit from stunning dc and are affected by melee power making these effectually nice

    Adding Devastating Critical helps some though we are already AP starved for tiers 5 and 6.

    Most of the other adds are helping those who twist feats and those not monks running in GMOF (eliminating the centering requirements and stance requirements).


    I will certainly try to test out GMOF in the next Lammania preview and give a fair shake, but by paper there are some perks that make more feats useful, but some deep cuts, especially to EiN, which make GMOF appear still only "OK" for monks, but "Good" for non-monks. I will give the Devs the benefit of the paper doubt because they were under a short term time-frame to make changes and they will revisit and tweak things in the Destinies in the future after U43 according to the Original Post.

  10. #30
    Community Member Shadow_Jumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    You might be correct about that, though a nonzero number of people do take it.

    That said, we don't intend to add cap increase/cap ignorance on this ability, so we're going to leave it alone in the interest of not nerfing the few people who do use its current incarnation.
    By removing it you’d still be buffing them, even if they didn’t know it - which I think is carpone’s point. The people taking the dodge variant aren’t doing it because they need that much dodge to cap out, they’re doing it because they think it ignores cap.
    The Shadow Assassin, and all around Miserable Elitist

  11. #31
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    Default Shadowdancer for ranged characters

    All the changes to shadowdancer look nice. The biggest concern I am having with it all is that even though I want to, and I REALLY want to play my ranged characters, archers and all, in the shadowdancer tree, it really offers nothing beyond flavor. It needs to be a viable option for me so I have a reason to jump into a tree that fits the flavor of my builds, but in the end doesn't scale well enough to compete with shriradi. It needs more RP. A 40pt disparity is just too much to overlook when I get into mid-high epics.


    Also, it would be awesome if some sort of synergy between wraith and shadow form was made, because now wraith fits shadowdancer better in many ways than shadow (assassinate DC, Dex and Int, sneak dice). On a toon with wizard levels (ranged or melee) I should have a good reason to use the form granted by T6 of my destiny over the form I got at level 6 (to get core 3 assassinate).

  12. #32
    Squirrel Enthusiast Lokeal_The_Flame's Avatar
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    Default Full BAB Option Please?

    Could you please give one of these trees a full BAB enhancement option?

    Not like Tensor's Transformation, but more like Knight's Transformation from the Eldritch Knight Tree.

  13. #33
    Community Member DYWYPI's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why the Developers didn't move 'Meld Into Darkness' to 'Tier Six'. Anyway, I'd agree with lot of what 0ldschool said regarding animation slowness and some of the 'Team DDO' proposed changes not really being thematic with regards to the Rogue profession or sneaky resourceful play-style.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0ldschool View Post
    [...] In an effort to be proactive and positive, I want to propose the following additions/changes to Shadowdancer. [...]

    Tier 6
    • Shadow Form: add Ghost Touch and Immunity to Knockdown. ...
    You are effectively an incorporeal shadow, having similar qualities of smoke. Therefore you shouldn't have any issues bypassing Incorporeal miss chance. Since now they are considering it (Shadow Form) a "Major Form", I would agree there should now have functional "Knockdown immunity" and even possibly; breath indefinitely underwater added, while in 'Shadow Form' state.

    Yes, something like an; innate 'Deception' process, to any wielded weapons or Sneak Attack bonus, or Fortification bypass, would have been more in-keeping rather than just increase some generic damage output figures.
    Last edited by DYWYPI; 07-30-2019 at 04:54 AM. Reason: You probably smell it, smoke from a burning pan.

  14. #34
    Community Member Rog's Avatar
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    Default Monk changes look good

    I hate to be the one to point this out to you but " A Scattering of Petals no longer grants Dodge, and instead grants +100 PRR and MRR for 12 seconds."
    MRR on a monk caps out at 50.
    a 100 mrr is a waste of a buff.
    to make room for your new buffs you could start with removing Feather Fall from the tree this buff is a total waste of a slot.
    and a bigger waste of a twist.
    Last edited by Rog; 07-29-2019 at 03:34 PM.

  15. #35
    Community Member Rog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Jumper View Post
    Still very meh on these changes imo.

    My big issue is that the dev team simply decided that to increase power (to compete with LD) to just copy/paste devastating critical.

    Come on guys. There’s seriously a lot more ways you could have increased power to better tailor each ED. Rogues who use SD? They don’t want a 19-20 crit multi. They want 200-250% MP scaling with current SA dmg. Monks? They want mrr cap increases.

    For all the talk of wanting to make each ED have it’s own feel, this falls remarkably flat.
    will this give me a 4x instead of the 3x i get on a crit? if not then its a waste

  16. #36

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    Shadowdancer thoughts:
    • Put Shadow Training II on a 2 minute timer.
    • Remove the casting animation from Dark Imbuement.
    • Please add "Increases Maximum Dodge Bonus" somewhere in the tree.
    • Please make "Acrobatic" into the Reflex save version of "Dragonhide" and "Impregnable Mind". It's absurd that I either have to burn a feat or run in a wildly inappropriate destiny to have "Can't fail reflex saves on a 1".
    Things worthy of Standing Stone going EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on.:
    • NEW - Setting Unarmed Strike back to what it was and attacking the real problem: Reinforced Fists items.
    • Fix the flipping non-proficiency penalties for Bear and Wolf wildshapes!
    • Redoing the drop rates of tomes in generic and raid loot tables.
    • Keep Lynnabel on task with updating the remaining legacy named loot to not suck.
    • Tiering the Runearms so that artificers aren’t screwed out of the advantages of Cannith Crafting in Epic levels on their signature item.
    • Finishing the enhancement tree passes (including racial PrE’s) before rolling out yet another DDOStore™ Enhancement Tree.

  17. #37
    Community Member Paisheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rog View Post
    I hate to be the one to point this out to you but " A Scattering of Petals no longer grants Dodge, and instead grants +100 PRR and MRR for 12 seconds."
    MRR on a monk caps out at 50.
    a 100 mrr is a waste of a buff.
    to make room for your new buffs you could start with removing Feather Fall from the tree this buff is a total waste of a slot.
    and a bigger waste of a twist.
    Ditto.

    MRR -- mind you even before when it was dodge this is a tier 6 ability. Meld into Darkness gives you 100 dodge and cap at tier 3! Whether its dodge or mrr, Scattering of Petals should give cap too!

    Feather Fall -- tier 3?!! Pure monks have it....and anyone who doesn't would put a level 4 augment somewhere instead of waste a destiny AP point.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Ninja View Post
    The Shadowdancer tree [...] needs to be a viable option for me so I have a reason to jump into a tree that fits the flavor of my builds, but in the end doesn't scale well enough to compete with shriradi. It needs more RP. A 40pt disparity is just too much to overlook when I get into mid-high epics.
    Agreed. 40 RP vs 6 SA dice is no contest so I'll be sticking to Shiradi for Inquisitive. Shadowdancer would have to provide 6 RP per core for me to reconsider. While not a perfect comparison, equating 1 SA dice to 5 RP is reasonable.
    Kobeyashi | Ying

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Agreed. 40 RP vs 6 SA dice is no contest so I'll be sticking to Shiradi for Inquisitive. Shadowdancer would have to provide 6 RP per core for me to reconsider. While not a perfect comparison, equating 1 SA dice to 5 RP is reasonable.
    This is obviously quite toon dependent, but for my mechanic , 1 point of RP is roughly equal to 1 SA die. On my setup, it is exactly 1.28 points of RP equals the same damage increase that 1 SA die creates. If we upped SD to 6 RP per core (36 RP total) and add in the 6 SA die (which I'll convert to 8 RP), I am still 18 RP shy of the 60 RP from Shiradi. Of course, sneak attack is not full time like RP, so it's not a great comparison. I would still rather have 8 RP than 6 SA die. This is why I proposed 2 SA die per level of SD, and +7 RP power per SD level. That a 16 RP equivalent for the SA die, and 42 RP, giving a total of 58 RP equivalent. This is still less than Shiradi, and considering that sneak attack is not full time, really even less desirable. Factor in all of the Shiradi CC attacks (Pin, Whistler, Rainbow), the +6% doubleshot they are adding, and the Hunt's End Areneline shot every 24 seconds, and it is still really not even that close.

    As it is, I predict that ranged SD will be almost non-existent after this pass.
    Zanthiss - L30 Mechanic - Cannith
    Zamsil - L10 TWF dagger assassin, doesn't know what he's doing yet

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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paisheng View Post
    [B]


    2. Grand Master of Flowers needs to be open to more melees while retaining its monk emphasis. (GMOF is the original DnD title to the highest monk level). Clearly this is a tree you want performing for many other classes, but it seems you have taken away all the special flavor and powers for monk. Is that your goal or should not some additional boons be given to those centered? I believe there should just as in other trees highlight certain races, weapon builds and classes.

    In other Destinies you have specialized powers to Dragonborn with their breath weapons, or in LD Lightning Mace and Anvil of Thunder apply to certain weapons while excluding others including wraps). and in your new designs Two Handed Weapons will gain extra benefits from several tree feats beyond what others are getting from those same feats. These are just a few examples, there are many more. So why not in keeping with this flavoring and bonus abilities throw in some feats for monk or those centered in the tree that bears their name?

    Specific Ideas: Dance of Flowers. You could keep the original 1.5 W for those centered while still offering the 1W to other melees and ranged not centered. You could also extend additional abilities for the 4 stance feats of Running with the Wind, Walking on Waves, Standing with Stone, and Dancing with Flames if centered (applies to more than those just in stance) while maintaining the current powers for those not centered.
    Wind: +1 % melee Alacrity when centered
    Water:+1% Incorporeality when centered
    Earth: + 1% more AC when centered
    Fire: +1% more damage when centered


    These are just a couple ideas and if you are looking for other suggestions to make the GMOF tree shine for monks just a little brighter than others I would happily oblige.
    I like these ideas. Offering a bit more from GMoF when centered does seem like a good idea.

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