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  1. #1
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Default A grumpy bard sympathizer

    The other day I pulled this item:

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legend...ring_Waistwrap

    And when I saw the special effect, I pulled my hair: +3 PRR.

    Is this how bards are given special unique buffs and supported via itemization? With rounding error level buffs?

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    I genuinely don't understand what you mean by "rounding error level buffs".

  3. #3
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpw_acc View Post
    I genuinely don't understand what you mean by "rounding error level buffs".
    For not very precise calculations, using fewer than the full decimals of a number is not a big deal. Sure, the end result might come out a bit different, but it won't matter very much.

    I compared the +3PRR of that buff to such slight differences.

    But either way, coding a special effect to offer a grand total of, wait for it, 3PRR seems incredibly silly. This is freaking minlvl28-29 gear!

    Recently bards were revamped and the goal was to make them desirable in groups, in part as buffers. A few months later, meeting a bard in end game is a rare thing. One has to wonder if the itemization and power levels might have to do with it...

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    Well, I'm only a casual player and not as totally obsessed with getting MOAARRR dps or xp/min as other people seem to be on these forums, but my observations are:

    Items or features that give common bonus types tend to give the highest bonus for their level range.

    Less common bonus types like 'insight' tend to be about half this bonus.

    Unique 'stack with everything' bonuses and bonuses that apply to everyone in your party tend to be small, like 1 - 3 range, regardless of item level.

  5. #5
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    I have to agree. That +3 feels more like a slap in the face than a special effect.
    Stratis on Khyber

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    I have to agree. That +3 feels more like a slap in the face than a special effect.
    But at least the slap in the face will only cause 1-3 damage (1 in reaper)!

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    Sovereign Vorpal Halfling of Supreme Good scipiojedi's Avatar
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    I agree - to be meaningful as a "Bulwark" this would need to be in the 20-30 range in my eyes. Then everyone would want a bard in the party no?

    Same concept with the cleric protection domain: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

    Who is this protecting? Change that to +5 to AC, PRR, and MRR and now you've got something.

    And I say this as someone who often has less than 100 PRR in epic levels - even I view these small amounts as insignificant - imagine what the people who have 200 PRR think!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
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    Khyber: Jobus (Shirardi), JaguarPaw (xbow user), Ungriem (tank), Helvetii (DaggerForged), Jobox (AA), Yaddle (DC Monk), Jobberwocky, Jobusz , Vrykolakes, Caeruleum, Brattypoppy, Taurielle (Bard AA), Romuluse, Glorfindela, Gwathali (Assassin), Rachaela

  8. #8
    Community Member CSQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    The other day I pulled this item:

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legend...ring_Waistwrap

    And when I saw the special effect, I pulled my hair: +3 PRR.

    Is this how bards are given special unique buffs and supported via itemization? With rounding error level buffs?
    So, to put this in context for non bard players, bards already get buffs to PRR that apply to the party, meaning that this buff is basically like adding more damage to a dps or healing to a healer. If you gave a tank, healer, or dps a 5% increase in usefulness on their specialized gear versus generic gear that didn't offer bonuses to their attributes, it would be pretty weak and there would be salt on the forums to no end. However, since bards are support based, to some extent, it's not necessarily readily apparent how minimally helpful +3 party PRR is.

    Bard, for context, receives a +3 PRR party bonus from Inspire Greatness, up to +6 PRR party bonus from Ironskin Chant, and up to +6 PRR from Rough and Ready, though that is just a personal bonus. Moving a +9 PRR buff to a +12 PRR buff would give a character with no other sources of PRR a bonus of less than 11% mitigation, with diminishing returns from people who actually know how to play the gam- er, have PRR already. This on paper doesn't sound too bad, but bardic buffs offer a ton of other benefits which vastly outweigh the PRR, including a spectacular +2 to all ability scores (from an epic feat). These include +4 to hit and damage, +4 to all skill checks, a bonus to USP (varies, at least +9 if optimized), +10 healing amp, +4 to all saves, +4 to AC, +4% dodge, +6 elemental resistance, +6 doubleshot/strike, +15% movement speed, and +6% melee/ranged damage and spell crit chance. That's not counting the effects you can get from Spellsinger, either, that are a bit more diverse, such as sustaining song (heal over time), spell discounts, and even regenerating SP, though some of these may require you to build in a way that might not give maximum buffs elsewhere.

    Basically, at epic levels, giving +3 PRR to the party is going to mitigate maybe less than 1% of the damage the party is taking, assuming that there's a tank with a decent PRR score taking most of the hits. It would only increase the usefulness of a bard by next to nothing. It doesn't really do much for a bard (a support based bard will hopefully never really be taking physical damage if it can be avoided, and a warchanter/swashbuckler fighting in melee is more likely a dodge build than a PRR build, given that bards are not super tanky by design) and it doesn't really give them something flashy to say "Here, take this cool buff and go kill the boss!" +3 PRR may help your super build tank hit a new record PRR, but it doesn't have much impact at level 28+ because by then PRR is like candy. With just a single +45 sheltering item, and the default +3 from bard, that barely gives 1% damage mitigation to your party.

    TL;DR, it's not very helpful.
    I primarily play Zunzyne Siegemaker, and am the guild master of Ares Macrotechnology on Ghallanda.
    Reaper Experience Calculator: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ewE/edit#gid=0 (out of date as of U42.4, needs testing for new values)

  9. #9
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    I have to agree. That +3 feels more like a slap in the face than a special effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by scipiojedi View Post
    I agree - to be meaningful as a "Bulwark" this would need to be in the 20-30 range in my eyes. Then everyone would want a bard in the party no?
    Quote Originally Posted by CSQ View Post
    TL;DR, it's not very helpful.
    There are, right now, 5 bards in the whole server in Argo (+120 players on atm), and no meaningful bard splashes either. Of those, only 2 in epics, and exactly 0 at cap.

    And I cannot help but think that this is why they get this silly items, because theren't enough bard supporters to spam the forums during item and class passes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    And I cannot help but think that this is why they get this silly items, because theren't enough bard supporters to spam the forums during item and class passes.
    I try to give my opinions on things that concern bards, but I don't think the devs like me. Because of this I try to pick my battles.
    Stratis on Khyber

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  11. #11
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    I try to give my opinions on things that concern bards, but I don't think the devs like me. Because of this I try to pick my battles.
    Oh, I entered the ignore list some time ago, and I don't think I am out of it :^P

    But still...3prr for an item efect in the latest pack and highest level; one would think someone ought to have complained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Oh, I entered the ignore list some time ago, and I don't think I am out of it :^P

    But still...3prr for an item efect in the latest pack and highest level; one would think someone ought to have complained.
    Oh I have.

    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    Rune Arms - I've mentioned this earlier - why again fire? Ravenloft also had two fire rune arms. Make a healer rune arm, DC caster rune arm, weapon damage rune arm...

    Melody: Bulwark Your Inspire Greatness grants you and your allies an additional +3 PRR. Make it +3 / +10?

    Fulcrum Shift 5 Melee Power is bad. We have ML28 quest gear that gives permanent 8 Melee Power.

    Temperance of Belief: +1 Insightful MRR - should be different type

    Exceptional Healing Amplification +8/+22 is uninteresting, we can get 45 on ML21 Mysterious Cloak/Bracers. That said, it's on a small shield, those are irrelevant anyway.

  13. #13
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scipiojedi View Post
    I agree - to be meaningful as a "Bulwark" this would need to be in the 20-30 range in my eyes. Then everyone would want a bard in the party no?

    ...I say this as someone who often has less than 100 PRR in epic levels - even I view these small amounts as insignificant - imagine what the people who have 200 PRR think!
    20-30 range I'd feel like it's more of a "must-have" and any Bard without it would be ostracized a bit lol. I'd say more ~15 range, enough it's noticeable but not enough that you block your LFM to non-Bards if your raid party hits 11 and doesn't have one yet.

    Speaking as someone who usually has 200+ PRR at cap lol. 200 vs 230 PRR would be a 10% off incoming damage difference, which is really quite strong for a party buff IMO. Your 100 going to 130 would be getting a 13% buff (taking 50% incoming vs taking 43%). Even a 400 PRR endgame tank would get 5% off (18.9% vs 20%).

    Quote Originally Posted by CSQ View Post
    So, to put this in context for non bard players, bards already get buffs to PRR that apply to the party, meaning that this buff is basically like adding more damage to a dps or healing to a healer. If you gave a tank, healer, or dps a 5% increase in usefulness on their specialized gear versus generic gear that didn't offer bonuses to their attributes, it would be pretty weak and there would be salt on the forums to no end. However, since bards are support based, to some extent, it's not necessarily readily apparent how minimally helpful +3 party PRR is.
    Heard of Relentless Fury? +5% damage is kinda nice How about Chant of Power's 6%? But I agree, I'd buff the PRR to ~15 IMO.

    Basically, at epic levels, giving +3 PRR to the party is going to mitigate maybe less than 1% of the damage the party is taking, assuming that there's a tank with a decent PRR score taking most of the hits.
    At 200 PRR adding +3 PRR is 1% off the previous amount, so I'd say your estimate is bang on; less for tanks, but only needs a few hits on low-PRR toons to bring the average back up. Making it +15 PRR would make it ~5% off incoming damage, which is IMO fairly balanced and reasonable but not as required. Also consider that it's a party buff

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    I'm still extremely disappointed by Fulcrum Shift. It's not like they didn't have suggestions, and even a better version in Preview 2... Instead of being something super interesting it's a basically worthless bonus.
    Last edited by SpartanKiller13; 07-18-2019 at 03:05 PM.
    -Khysiria of Cannith
    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  14. #14
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    Oh I have.
    This reminds me of the monk pass, when they "buffed" henshin. A bunch of us complained that the essence Henshin, the ki attacks, had remained pretty much useless.

    We started various threads providing comprehensive damage breakdowns, we even had one person who went 1-30 on a henshin ON LIVE to playtest and give feedback.

    We got almost no answers, and told some stuff like "we don't always design for powergamers" and "we value gameplay feedback".

    Man, for people who could and use computers for a living, they surely hate maths. 3PRR is a pitiful effect, and so are the henshin mystic effects.

    And what's more: on live, good raiding guilds don't bring bards. And if people don't give a heck on top content, where specialization is rewarded, who is going to want some buffs while blowing through lvling content on a sorc, warlock, or dual xbow horror.

    /rant over

    It is what it is, but at least I got it out of my chest. The ITEM IS BAD, and despite the bundling of songs bards haven't regained to best 6th man title.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    I'm still extremely disappointed by Fulcrum Shift.
    Me too, mostly because it just refuses to goddamn work. This should be super simple - a script that watches for the jump apex script on the player - but it's just not working at all. The buff should be scaling based off of Jump, too, but that's also broken for a different, even more unknown reason. I've got a few minutes to spare this afternoon while I wait for someone to finish some code for me, I might just jump back in right now while I'm mad about it. I'll keep you guys in the loop if it's fixed.
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  16. #16
    Community Member CSQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    Heard of Relentless Fury? +5% damage is kinda nice How about Chant of Power's 6%? But I agree, I'd buff the PRR to ~15 IMO.
    I apologize for being unclear. I meant that the bonus from the item was pathetic; I actually love bard (even though I do a lot of solo, which is not when bards shine) and I'm on a bard life right now, so I'm familiar with the awesomeness that is a bunch of the bard abilities. Chant of Power is one, but I generally find the Spellsinger tree to actually be more utilitarian most of the time, even as I mostly cited Warchanter stuff. I like all kinds of bards. Casting bards. Sword bards. Inquisitive bards (even if it is an abomination unto the Lord). I love the versatility of bard and I am stoked for the new Fatesinger, so much so that I'm holding off on my current iconic reincarnation to do some epic lives while waiting for U43. I think bards are highly underrated (a stigma that began with bards in P&P 3.5 for many DDO players, I'd imagine). For a long time, my signature had an apology for all the stuff I said about bards after I played one and loved it.

    I am a wholehearted bard apologist. They may not be the flashiest and maybe struggle in end game (though, I think they could be quite viable as a party support- 6% damage buffs in a raid is certainly amazing, especially if you're playing a full fledged and effective healer or DPS bard- with three physical attackers, even if you're only doing 85% of the average DPS target personally you've already bumped up the DPS enough, not counting any healing you're doing or other buffs you've given). I think with Fatesinger there will be room for some impressive bard builds. My current build is gimpy because I'm far from a power gamer in DDO, I run heroic low reaper and elites (depending on my build) and flower sniff through epic and legendary quests on whatever difficulty I can, but I can see that there are opportunities for truly amazing bard builds. I'm just too lazy to gear up and do a specialized powerful build.

    I think bards have underutilized potential. Their generalist playstyle is too complicated for many players to really embrace without neglecting some of their options, and their specialized builds don't really compete one to one, but bringing a bard with sustaining song into heroic reaper PUGs is going to make the run a lot less painful. Not sure about epic play much, but I think that with the coming Fatesinger pass bards will (hopefully) be recognized for their true potential.

    (Also, 5E tabletop bard is overpowered, but that's for another time and place.)
    I primarily play Zunzyne Siegemaker, and am the guild master of Ares Macrotechnology on Ghallanda.
    Reaper Experience Calculator: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...ewE/edit#gid=0 (out of date as of U42.4, needs testing for new values)

  17. #17
    Community Member thunir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    The other day I pulled this item:

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legend...ring_Waistwrap

    And when I saw the special effect, I pulled my hair: +3 PRR.

    Is this how bards are given special unique buffs and supported via itemization? With rounding error level buffs?


    BARDS: been gettin' the shaft since 2006.

    Really, I wish it was a craftable that gave +10 Insightful Cha/ Int/ Dex that way you could pair it with the Elyd charm........but I guess that's OP

    It would be really nice if we could get Inspiring Echoes on something other than a 8 year old lvl 20 rapier.
    Last edited by thunir; 07-18-2019 at 04:31 PM.

  18. #18
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunir View Post
    BARDS: been gettin' the shaft since 2006.

    Really, I wish it was a craftable that gave +10 Insightful Cha/ Int/ Dex that way you could pair it with the Elyd charm........but I guess that's OP

    It would be really nice if we could get Inspiring Echoes on something other than a 8 year old lvl 20 rapier.
    Thats back from the era when actual unique effects were used to entice people to farm content long after it was released.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    120% is equal to 100%.

  19. #19
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Me too, mostly because it just refuses to goddamn work. This should be super simple - a script that watches for the jump apex script on the player - but it's just not working at all. The buff should be scaling based off of Jump, too, but that's also broken for a different, even more unknown reason. I've got a few minutes to spare this afternoon while I wait for someone to finish some code for me, I might just jump back in right now while I'm mad about it. I'll keep you guys in the loop if it's fixed.
    Thanks very much for at least looking! I just assumed it got nerfed because of balance etc and saw nothing to indicate otherwise (comparing Lama Preview 2 vs Preview 3).

    As far as coding, all I could think of is that the Jump cap might be messing with it?

    I just see it as having a lot of cool potential that's almost entirely unrealized. Also opens up ideas for hilarious items in the future, like Boots of the Sahaguin that give MP scaling off of Swim whenever you make a Swim check (time to jump into lava for a MP buff?).

    Quote Originally Posted by CSQ View Post
    I apologize for being unclear. I meant that the bonus from the item was pathetic.

    (Also, 5E tabletop bard is overpowered, but that's for another time and place.)
    Ah ok, I get you there. I totally agree on both counts quoted I was just not sure where the "5% buffs suck" part was :P I think 5% is fine, but 1% is a bit more lackluster.

    I just joined a 5E PnP, and I'm really loving my Madness domain Cleric because I get the Bard cantrip Vicious Mockery (and ofc I use it on everything). Bards are so much stronger compared to the gimps they are in 3.5 where I come from :P
    -Khysiria of Cannith
    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    Thanks very much for at least looking! I just assumed it got nerfed because of balance etc and saw nothing to indicate otherwise (comparing Lama Preview 2 vs Preview 3).
    The real problem here is that Mods don't have a designated Base Bonus even though both damage and duration - of all things, DURATION has this but not mods - so I can't make something do, in this case, 5 + 1 per 20 jump, I can only do 1 per 20 jump. Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhh why does ddo test my patience so much >:(
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

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