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  1. #21
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    OP starts thread about lackluster bard item effect.

    Non-bard item with lackluster effect is cited later in the thread.

    Dev chimes in on bard item thread to fix non-bard item.

    Yep.
    Stratis on Khyber

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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    Dev chimes in on bard item thread to fix non non-bard item.
    I can stop fixing the other item if you want :P
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    I can stop fixing the other item if you want :P
    I do appreciate you fixing things.
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  4. #24
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunir View Post
    BARDS: been gettin' the shaft since 2006.

    Really, I wish it was a craftable that gave +10 Insightful Cha/ Int/ Dex that way you could pair it with the Elyd charm........but I guess that's OP

    It would be really nice if we could get Inspiring Echoes on something other than a 8 year old lvl 20 rapier.
    I farmed so long for that shard; and I hate farming.

    I do feel bards are missing awesome items; we have two raid daggers for vistani rogues, we have kick arse big sword, we have multiple 1 handed weapons that synergize like crazy with tempest.

    Other classes have things that scale well with general itemization; for example, attack speed from tempest, or even MP from fighter. But bard has had the same sad old static buffs from back in the day when we didn't have +17 deadly, quality deadly, insightful deadly...

    And can someone tell me why we have a MEDIUM armor enhancement in warchanter, STR enhancements, and yet absolutely no support for THF with it? Not that THF is so hot now, but right now going THF on a warchanter is gimping yourself badly.

    The bard buff back in the beginning of class updates was not a bad buff, it was introducing a new OP (at the time) PRE, but not much was done in terms of updating the completely outclassed and outdated song and fascinate mechanics.

    I could go on all day. This one item made me mad because it is, IMHO, the perfect example of a bard buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fivetigers33 View Post
    OP starts thread about lackluster bard item effect.

    Non-bard item with lackluster effect is cited later in the thread.

    Dev chimes in on bard item thread to fix non-bard item.

    Yep.
    Hey, a bump is a bump, but the irony is not lost on me.

    Now this be in dev tracker, yo!

  5. #25
    Dual-Wielder of Halflings dozkal-mo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    ...mostly because it just refuses to goddamn work....
    I have felt this statement on many occasions. Good luck.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Augon's Avatar
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    My guild leader likes to play Bards.
    Sometimes he splashes two levels of Rogue.
    I tell him that at least he has two useful levels.
    This seems to offend him.
    Silly Guild leaders.
    Sarlona Server - Augon, Vitrin, Allaric, Taheghi, Dhakenshaup, Diviciacus, Loukus, Mehujael, Phreddd, Talaun, Zhugeliangg

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    And what's more: on live, good raiding guilds don't bring bards. And if people don't give a heck on top content, where specialization is rewarded, who is going to want some buffs while blowing through lvling content on a sorc, warlock, or dual xbow horror.
    This viewpoint is shared by a lot of people and it is very very very toxic to the bard community. I can't overstate how little has been done by the supposed good raiding guilds and players within to give a comprehensive look at what benefits a bard actually brings mechanically to the table. A page will be started on the merits of one weapon vs another with comprehensive math done to show what each is capable of, but when it comes to the unique buffs bards bring to the table the consensus is the benefit is too small without any of the same work or math done to show that it is true which is absurd for a community so obsessed with providing math. I honestly for the sake of bards someone did take the time to deep dive the analytics so as to either conclude that bards are a net benefit or let the developers know how far from the mark they are and how they can close the gap to make an underappreciated support play style viable in top content.

  8. #28
    Community Member IlmerSilverhilt's Avatar
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    Concerning the Belt: On Lamannia it had +1 Inspire Courage. Also a small buff, but I think I would have preferred it over the +3 PRR. I have the belt but I find Im using Black Satin Waist more for the +5 quality cha. Helps my DCs and gives a higher cha mod for For Cormyr! Im not so good with math sadly, but would be an interesting read if someone can crunch the numbers. I have an up-to-date Bard build in my sig. feel free to take a look at it.
    Last edited by IlmerSilverhilt; 07-19-2019 at 05:27 AM.
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  9. #29
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by somethingcleverer View Post
    This viewpoint is shared by a lot of people and it is very very very toxic to the bard community. I can't overstate how little has been done by the supposed good raiding guilds and players within to give a comprehensive look at what benefits a bard actually brings mechanically to the table. A page will be started on the merits of one weapon vs another with comprehensive math done to show what each is capable of, but when it comes to the unique buffs bards bring to the table the consensus is the benefit is too small without any of the same work or math done to show that it is true which is absurd for a community so obsessed with providing math. I honestly for the sake of bards someone did take the time to deep dive the analytics so as to either conclude that bards are a net benefit or let the developers know how far from the mark they are and how they can close the gap to make an underappreciated support play style viable in top content.

    I can put something together, in broad strokes, but the reason why people don-t do it is because it inevitably has assumptions and then nay-sayers just destroy with the most outlandish pretexts.

    Sometimes, I have even had situations were someone would end up using the "fun" or "aesthetic" card. So, do you guys promise to play nice if I put the effort of giving you a guesstimate?

    I'll say this: you underestimate how much number crunching goes on behind the scenes, when it comes to some top guilds and players. If non of the top guilds are bringing bards, there is a good reason.

    Do you think it is by chance that the latest raids are run with 4-5 wolf multi classes for DPS? Those are beatdown optimized builds, and very much ahead than any other possible build.
    Do you think people roll clerics / fvs for healing instead of bards for no reason?

    There are levels of content that we have overpowered, and for which most things are fine. In all of those, bard can function, it is not absolutely useless. However, once the content is tougher, and the possibility of failure increases, people gravitate towards "optimal", and bard is not "optimal".

    Another area of the game where people go for optimization is TRing. Sorcs, inquisitives, warlocks. There is a reason why people don't build TR platforms anymore around bard.

    At the end of the day, we can argue all day along whether items are good or bad, whether classes are to speed or not, and in the forums, everything goes. However, in the live servers, the reality is stubborn and cannot be denied. People, generally speaking, do NOT play bards. They do not use them to burn through TRs, they do not use them to buff end game raids at tough difficulties. There are some bards here and there, some awesome players, and as such they contribute; that's a testimony to their awesomeness and not that of the bard. Same goes with items; people do not farm or wear bad items, such as this belt.

  10. #30
    Hero apocaladle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The real problem here is that Mods don't have a designated Base Bonus even though both damage and duration - of all things, DURATION has this but not mods - so I can't make something do, in this case, 5 + 1 per 20 jump, I can only do 1 per 20 jump. Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhh why does ddo test my patience so much >
    Why not put it at 1 per 4 or 5 jump so at max jump 40 it would give 8-10 power?

    Assuming you can cap it not that players build 100 jump to break it.

    Also I suppose negative jump would bugger it up too.

    Either way, thanks for the efforts.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The real problem here is that Mods don't have a designated Base Bonus even though both damage and duration - of all things, DURATION has this but not mods - so I can't make something do, in this case, 5 + 1 per 20 jump, I can only do 1 per 20 jump. Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhh why does ddo test my patience so much >
    you can also have the boots grant 5 MP permanently and then add additional when you jump.

  12. #32
    Community Member Oliphant's Avatar
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    Devs consolidating bard buffs only to make them single target was peak DDO corrupt a wish for me.
    Please consider the environment before printing this post

  13. #33
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    The real problem here is that Mods don't have a designated Base Bonus even though both damage and duration - of all things, DURATION has this but not mods - so I can't make something do, in this case, 5 + 1 per 20 jump, I can only do 1 per 20 jump. Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhh why does ddo test my patience so much >
    That seems pretty counter-intuitive, but that's programming lol. Could you put the effect in twice, like [+5 MP] on Jump and [+1 per 20 Jump] on Jump (with stacking or separate bonus types)? Would technically violate the 4-effects-per-item listing, but seems like it might be easier?

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    And can someone tell me why we have a MEDIUM armor enhancement in warchanter, STR enhancements, and yet absolutely no support for THF with it? Not that THF is so hot now, but right now going THF on a warchanter is gimping yourself badly.
    Considering how awesome Swashbuckling is (and how well SWF is doing) it seems like you're gimping yourself if you don't at least go that far?

    I'm a THF main, but like if I was Barding I'd probably SWF w/SB.

    Quote Originally Posted by apocaladle View Post
    Why not put it at 1 per 4 or 5 jump so at max jump 40 it would give 8-10 power?

    Assuming you can cap it not that players build 100 jump to break it.

    Also I suppose negative jump would bugger it up too.

    Either way, thanks for the efforts.
    My reasoning is if a player wants to get Jump 150 just to get more out of this item, they're losing out elsewhere (and have 110 mostly wasted Jump) so it balances itself out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  14. #34
    Sovereign Vorpal Halfling of Supreme Good scipiojedi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    That seems pretty counter-intuitive, but that's programming lol. Could you put the effect in twice, like [+5 MP] on Jump and [+1 per 20 Jump] on Jump (with stacking or separate bonus types)? Would technically violate the 4-effects-per-item listing, but seems like it might be easier?



    Considering how awesome Swashbuckling is (and how well SWF is doing) it seems like you're gimping yourself if you don't at least go that far?

    I'm a THF main, but like if I was Barding I'd probably SWF w/SB.



    My reasoning is if a player wants to get Jump 150 just to get more out of this item, they're losing out elsewhere (and have 110 mostly wasted Jump) so it balances itself out.
    To get there you would pretty much have to be a STR build, which would help throw a bone to those, as it seems like they have been out of style.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Working for free makes it very difficult to spend money on swords.
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  15. #35
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    Considering how awesome Swashbuckling is (and how well SWF is doing) it seems like you're gimping yourself if you don't at least go that far?
    I'm a THF main, but like if I was Barding I'd probably SWF w/SB.
    The point is not whether swash is the best DPS bard; it is. The point is that they create an entire tree supporting "rage" like and STR mechanics, and MEDIUM armor, with cleaves, which seems to push towards THF. Yet, mid tree they abandon that concept and hence you cannot really pursue medium armor bard as a real option. EVEN THOUGH IT IS CODED in that way; it is one of those *** moments.

    That aside, since when has bard become pidgeonholed into a PRE they invented 4 years ago, at least for martial DPS? Right now that is the only real support they have for it, since warchanter is a bad main or even secondary DPS tree.

    Also, a freeze ability that lasts 6 seconds, with 2 MINUTES, that's right, 2 freaking minutes of cooldown, is simply subpar for a capstone. I haven NEVER seen anyone use that in the live server.

    But hey, swash, amirite? I don't know who's pet project that was, but good job leaving the other bard PREs, and bard songs and abilities in the dust.

  16. #36
    Community Member CSQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliphant View Post
    Devs consolidating bard buffs only to make them single target was peak DDO corrupt a wish for me.
    Honestly, it sounds bad, but in practice outside of buffing a raid group it's probably faster now than it was, coupled with the fact you can move while buffing and the duration is great with a little work.
    I primarily play Zunzyne Siegemaker, and am the guild master of Ares Macrotechnology on Ghallanda.
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  17. #37
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSQ View Post
    Honestly, it sounds bad, but in practice outside of buffing a raid group it's probably faster now than it was, coupled with the fact you can move while buffing and the duration is great with a little work.
    The point though is whether it should remain annoying, however better it is compared to the previous aweful situation.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by somethingcleverer View Post
    a community so obsessed with providing math.
    When I read through the forums here, I don't read tales or discussions an<ymore; I only read math.
    Math in the form of argueing which skill, weapon, buff or build is better from an maths point of view.

    When I read through the forums here, apart from the annual fashion show, I see only math students, math professors, accountancy clerks, or other kinds of people ... ahem ... "obsessed with math" ... playing DDO.

    Even if the devs were making a weapon that was absolutely awesome looking ... - people would merely discuss its maths.
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tapper this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this dale."
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    English is not my first language - misinterpretations galore !

  19. #39
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alrik_Fassbauer View Post
    When I read through the forums here, I don't read tales or discussions an<ymore; I only read math.
    Math in the form of argueing which skill, weapon, buff or build is better from an maths point of view.

    When I read through the forums here, apart from the annual fashion show, I see only math students, math professors, accountancy clerks, or other kinds of people ... ahem ... "obsessed with math" ... playing DDO.

    Even if the devs were making a weapon that was absolutely awesome looking ... - people would merely discuss its maths.
    Is that a bad thing?

    Gary Gygax created a combat system, and intended for it to be internally consistent and sound. Whether he accomplished that, it is up for discussion.

    The point of DnD is that it is internally consistent make-believe; there are some rules to it, makes sense, and you don't need endless suspension of disbelief to be immersed.

    That, to me, means that a great cosmetic and lore description saying an item is the uberest sword of uber means absolutely nothing if the item actually plays like the sword of lame.

    The beauty of DnD is that it should wpr on relatively straightforward yet sound maths. It is designed around trade offs, and no option should be just equivalent and superior to another.

    This is not currently working in DDO. For example, THF is not in a great place, neither are bards, and as for the belt in the OP, while ot may have a description that sounds good, is absolute trash.

    And of course, given the abundant prevalence of trash options (styles, feats, archetypes that are currently so outdated that are effectively only rookie traps), maths become a far more important part of the discussion that they should be. Straightforward options should work, and optimization should be more about customizing over your playstyle preferences than sorting out good from bad options.

    PS - I guess I got carried away in the answer...who can blame me? :P
    Last edited by BigErkyKid; 07-19-2019 at 11:56 AM.

  20. #40
    Community Member thunir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    The point is not whether swash is the best DPS bard; it is. The point is that they create an entire tree supporting "rage" like and STR mechanics, and MEDIUM armor, with cleaves, which seems to push towards THF. Yet, mid tree they abandon that concept and hence you cannot really pursue medium armor bard as a real option. EVEN THOUGH IT IS CODED in that way; it is one of those *** moments.

    That aside, since when has bard become pidgeonholed into a PRE they invented 4 years ago, at least for martial DPS? Right now that is the only real support they have for it, since warchanter is a bad main or even secondary DPS tree.

    Also, a freeze ability that lasts 6 seconds, with 2 MINUTES, that's right, 2 freaking minutes of cooldown, is simply subpar for a capstone. I haven NEVER seen anyone use that in the live server.

    But hey, swash, amirite? I don't know who's pet project that was, but good job leaving the other bard PREs, and bard songs and abilities in the dust.
    I’ve been screaming this for months

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