View Poll Results: Do you sign this petition?

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  1. #1
    Community Member Requiro's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Petition for made Tank happy again

    Devs, please consider quite simple (and easy, and fast!) change to improve every class that supposed to be in tank role.

    Change the type of HP bonuses for four different abilities:
    - Artificer Paragon Body (T5 RG) made Competence bonus (instead of Racial)
    - Epic Defensive Fighting (Free 21 lv feat) made Insight bonus (instead of Competence)
    - Unyielding Sentinel Strength of Vitaly (T5 ED) made Sacred bonus (instead of Insight)
    - Assimar Protector ability (T4 Race) made Racial bonus (instead of Sacred)

    More explanation why any Tanks need that change is in this thread.

    Q&A:
    Q: Is this another power creep improvement?
    A: No at all. This change nothing for tanks, but open more diversity to splash other class then Artificer. Overall we should see better Tanks in game, but no one get more HP by this change.

    Q: Why Developers should waste their time on this?
    A: For more skills to be logical and consistent. And for all Tanks that feels bad when they hit Epic Levels, and one of their best abilities are redundant.

    Q: Why Developers did not do it at the beginning?
    A: Honestly? I do not know. Maybe because they wanted to give us a 50% bonus in the first implementation of the EFF. And when they changed it to a more logical number (up to + 25%), they forgot that they would not be stacking with any other tank tree?

    Q: OK, I'm in. But what does this change exactly do?
    A: It will remove Artificer as the-only-way to get great HP from the tank equation and bring back reason to get bonus to HP from tanks enhancements tree.

    Q: I do not play Tank. I don’t care.
    A: Well, it should. With good Tank in party, game is much more interesting. And when you one day try Tank class, you will remember that change and will be thankful for it.
    -------------------------------------------------------------
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  2. #2
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    +1 all the way!
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

  3. #3
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    I don't think you are going to get them to change EDF from competence. EVERYONE made it clear that they didn't like that it was not working with defender HP, and the devs said "nope."

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    I don't think you are going to get them to change EDF from competence. EVERYONE made it clear that they didn't like that it was not working with defender HP, and the devs said "nope."
    To bad.... For that dev

    Devs have been suporting that silly ranged skill based class long enough, a stacking hp stance is just way to much.

    Dev favoritism needs to stop, it's a job, not a personal hobby horse

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    Almost makes sense considering the trees they would fall under.

  6. #6
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    I bet the no votes are from artie expoiters XD

  7. #7
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    make sense to me. It sucks that you need to multiclass to the hit points needed to tank.
    Dorian

  8. #8
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    No. EDF was meant to shore up people who weren't dedicated to defense. The problem arose when people wanted to play these so-called "tank" characters and they threw the balance way out of whack to appease these players. Then, nobody else could take the increased damage & stay alive in melee. This suggestion would put them back in the same dilemma. If they give these people more defense, they would have to increase the threat posed by bad guys. rinse, repeat & they'll be back in the same boat again.

  9. #9
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    No. EDF was meant to shore up people who weren't dedicated to defense. The problem arose when people wanted to play these so-called "tank" characters and they threw the balance way out of whack to appease these players. Then, nobody else could take the increased damage & stay alive in melee. This suggestion would put them back in the same dilemma. If they give these people more defense, they would have to increase the threat posed by bad guys. rinse, repeat & they'll be back in the same boat again.
    How's that?
    All this does is put fighter and paladin ranks on the same level as arty tanks currently are.
    Edf was put in place to help out melees, the only one that can use a hp boosting defencive stance in conjuction wit edf are the ranged, skill based arties because ballance should be thrown out of the window.
    Last edited by lyrecono; 07-17-2019 at 10:48 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

  10. #10
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    How's that?
    All this does is put fighter and paladin ranks on the same level as arty tanks currently are.

    Unless I'm reading this wrong, EDL would stack with fighter or paladin defensive stances.

    Edit: change or get rid of the arti thing altogether but in general, the stacking/multiplying of certain things has gotten out of hand (IMO).

  11. #11
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post
    Change the type of HP bonuses for four different abilities:
    - Artificer Paragon Body (T5 RG) made Competence bonus (instead of Racial)
    - Epic Defensive Fighting (Free 21 lv feat) made Insight bonus (instead of Competence)
    - Unyielding Sentinel Strength of Vitality (T5 ED) made Sacred bonus (instead of Insight)
    - Aasimar Protector ability (T4 Race) made Racial bonus (instead of Sacred)
    To summarize:
    • Competence from StD, SaD or RMM (the major tank trees)
    • Sacred from US
    • Racial from Aasimar
    • Insight from EDF

    Basically opens up all tanking options again, and likely pushes 14/5/1 Fighter/Paladin/EK back to best?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cantor View Post
    I don't think you are going to get them to change EDF from competence. EVERYONE made it clear that they didn't like that it was not working with defender HP, and the devs said "nope."
    I'm also kinda irritated that it doesn't work with like Shield Mastery/ISM.
    Last edited by SpartanKiller13; 07-17-2019 at 11:06 AM.
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    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    To summarize:
    • Competence from StD, SaD or RMM (the major tank trees)
    • Sacred from US
    • Racial from Aasimar
    • Insight from EDF
    I would suggest that in conjunction with this you move the HP buff from Tier 3 to Tier 5 in StD and SaD to match RMM. A 3 fighter splash to get haste boost, extra action boosts, extra tactics, +PRR/+MRR from defensive stance and +55% hitpoint boost seems like too much gain for too little investment. If you want the competence bonus, you need to put your T5 into a tanking tree (or go 20 warlock for capstone), if you want the sacred bonus, you need to be in US destiny (can't twist it), if you want the racial you must be Aasimir race, but any melee can take advantage of the Insight. I think that's a good balance and it does open up build choices including pure Pally or pure Fighter.

  13. #13
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zretch View Post
    I would suggest that in conjunction with this you move the HP buff from Tier 3 to Tier 5 in StD and SaD to match RMM. A 3 fighter splash to get haste boost, extra action boosts, extra tactics, +PRR/+MRR from defensive stance and +55% hitpoint boost seems like too much gain for too little investment. If you want the competence bonus, you need to put your T5 into a tanking tree (or go 20 warlock for capstone), if you want the sacred bonus, you need to be in US destiny (can't twist it), if you want the racial you must be Aasimir race, but any melee can take advantage of the Insight. I think that's a good balance and it does open up build choices including pure Pally or pure Fighter.
    What about a comprimise?
    Put the stance in the lv18 core?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    What about a comprimise?
    Put the stance in the lv18 core?
    I think putting it into the 18 core actually decreases the tanking build options, as your tank now has to be 18 Fighter or 18 Paladin or 18 Artificer to start. If that 20% competence bonus is really the "tanking" bonus, then having it in T5 still allows for multi-class flexibility while making it decidedly un-DPS friendly.

    I'm not saying it wouldn't work, just that it is more restrictive on builds and still allows for a DPS Kensai TWF with huge hitpoints build. I tend to like the DPS lockout and flexibility a bit better, but I'm not the DM of this particular game.

  15. #15
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    The whole reason EDF was created in the first place is because the +20% HP in the defensive trees was de facto required, and melee builds were heavily constrained. People were splashing /3 Fighter just for that one enhancement, and it was hurting build diversity.

    They added EDF so you could play a melee build and NOT be obligated to take a Defender tree. If you wanted to build a defensive tank, then there was still enough in the Defender trees to make them worthwhile (plus you could get the HP while still being in a ranged or caster build), but you didnt have to take them just for that one enhancement alone anymore. EDF was meant to be an alternative to other HP bonuses, not an addition to them.

    If all the HP bonuses started stacking, then that just puts us back where we started - where every melee build tries to force in Fig/Pal just for +20% more HP.

    You might make a case for the Arti bonus to become Competence like the other class-based bonuses, so Arti doesnt have a unique advantage...but you really cant ask for EDF to become stacking with everything else.

  16. #16
    Community Member count_spicoli's Avatar
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    EDF not stacking with ftr/pally stances was one of the dumbest things the devs have done and they have done some pretty dumb stuff. Not sure what they were thinking there gimping a couple classes that really don't need anymore gimping then they already have.
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  17. #17
    Community Member count_spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    The whole reason EDF was created in the first place is because the +20% HP in the defensive trees was de facto required, and melee builds were heavily constrained. People were splashing /3 Fighter just for that one enhancement, and it was hurting build diversity.

    They added EDF so you could play a melee build and NOT be obligated to take a Defender tree. If you wanted to build a defensive tank, then there was still enough in the Defender trees to make them worthwhile (plus you could get the HP while still being in a ranged or caster build), but you didnt have to take them just for that one enhancement alone anymore. EDF was meant to be an alternative to other HP bonuses, not an addition to them.

    If all the HP bonuses started stacking, then that just puts us back where we started - where every melee build tries to force in Fig/Pal just for +20% more HP.

    You might make a case for the Arti bonus to become Competence like the other class-based bonuses, so Arti doesnt have a unique advantage...but you really cant ask for EDF to become stacking with everything else.
    haha not everyone was taking 3 ftr or pally just for 20% more hp. People take 3 lvls of a lot of classes for bonuses. Maybe we should just stop multi all together.
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  18. #18
    Community Member count_spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    What about a comprimise?
    Put the stance in the lv18 core?
    I would go as far as to say core 12 stalwart. This way if you really want the 20% you really got to go deep in ftr. But if you are pure ftr you could still have some dps and get some hp bonuses. Right now there is no reason to be 12 ftr especially with the power surge nerf. And pally needs all the love it can get
    Khyber IN BAD COMPANY Longand Drunkmage Sexyheals Fullforce

  19. #19
    Cosmetic Guru Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    The whole reason EDF was created in the first place is because the +20% HP in the defensive trees was de facto required, and melee builds were heavily constrained. People were splashing /3 Fighter just for that one enhancement, and it was hurting build diversity.
    Really? I thought EDF came about because they had begun balancing content on the high end of epics around people having access to LGS HP bonus such that people that didn't raid or hadn't completed such were perforce encouraged to acquire large HP bonuses wherever they could to meet the new "balance".

    I would prefer the HP bonus types to be more logically consistent. Artificier's being typed racial is absurd, artificer being a class and not a race. Unyielding Sentinel is in the Divine Sphere and makes better sense as Sacred. Aasimar is in point of fact a race and thus theirs really ought to be racial.

    Now I honestly don't care if Artificer's and Defender stance HP bonuses stack with EDF or not, however, it is categorically unfair for this one class to be singled out with stacking HP bonus in its tanking? tree and NOT in Fighter or Paladins. So one way or the other that should change.
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  20. #20
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zretch View Post
    I think putting it into the 18 core actually decreases the tanking build options, as your tank now has to be 18 Fighter or 18 Paladin or 18 Artificer to start. If that 20% competence bonus is really the "tanking" bonus, then having it in T5 still allows for multi-class flexibility while making it decidedly un-DPS friendly.

    I'm not saying it wouldn't work, just that it is more restrictive on builds and still allows for a DPS Kensai TWF with huge hitpoints build. I tend to like the DPS lockout and flexibility a bit better, but I'm not the DM of this particular game.
    I see what you mean, so put the 20% hp in the 5th tier but allow them to pick up +6 con and str at tier 3&4?


    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    The whole reason EDF was created in the first place is because the +20% HP in the defensive trees was de facto required, and melee builds were heavily constrained. People were splashing /3 Fighter just for that one enhancement, and it was hurting build diversity.

    They added EDF so you could play a melee build and NOT be obligated to take a Defender tree. If you wanted to build a defensive tank, then there was still enough in the Defender trees to make them worthwhile (plus you could get the HP while still being in a ranged or caster build), but you didnt have to take them just for that one enhancement alone anymore. EDF was meant to be an alternative to other HP bonuses, not an addition to them.

    If all the HP bonuses started stacking, then that just puts us back where we started - where every melee build tries to force in Fig/Pal just for +20% more HP.

    You might make a case for the Arti bonus to become Competence like the other class-based bonuses, so Arti doesnt have a unique advantage...but you really cant ask for EDF to become stacking with everything else.
    I disagree, mostly because i see tanks needing the 20% hp and all the savy tanks in game atm (high reaper ones) all use arty, allowing fighter and paladin to join in the fun. The devs could put the 20% hp in the 5th tier and or the base stance in the 12th level core to stop cheesy multiclass builds.

    Quote Originally Posted by count_spicoli View Post
    EDF not stacking with ftr/pally stances was one of the dumbest things the devs have done and they have done some pretty dumb stuff. Not sure what they were thinking there gimping a couple classes that really don't need anymore gimping then they already have.
    Quote Originally Posted by count_spicoli View Post
    I would go as far as to say core 12 stalwart. This way if you really want the 20% you really got to go deep in ftr. But if you are pure ftr you could still have some dps and get some hp bonuses. Right now there is no reason to be 12 ftr especially with the power surge nerf. And pally needs all the love it can get
    Well, fighter needs a revamp or a fix for power surge.
    Seperate issues need seperate sollutions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    Really? I thought EDF came about because they had begun balancing content on the high end of epics around people having access to LGS HP bonus such that people that didn't raid or hadn't completed such were perforce encouraged to acquire large HP bonuses wherever they could to meet the new "balance".

    I would prefer the HP bonus types to be more logically consistent. Artificier's being typed racial is absurd, artificer being a class and not a race. Unyielding Sentinel is in the Divine Sphere and makes better sense as Sacred. Aasimar is in point of fact a race and thus theirs really ought to be racial.

    Now I honestly don't care if Artificer's and Defender stance HP bonuses stack with EDF or not, however, it is categorically unfair for this one class to be singled out with stacking HP bonus in its tanking? tree and NOT in Fighter or Paladins. So one way or the other that should change.
    Ohhh
    I imagined torc returning to the dev team, seeing the mess melee is in and luring steelstar into a broom closset with a trail of cookies. After locking him in, Torc ran to the dev team and introduced the EDF feat, as an apologee to all the melee players for all the wrong doings while he was away.

    Only to see the playerbase bitting the hand that feeds them, causing the feat to be changed from 50% to 25% hp.

    Talking about torc, where is he? I wouldn't mind hearing his oppinion on a few things.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

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