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  1. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montegue View Post
    I might actually consider running as a PM if this were how it was worded. Seriously, running around *as* a lich does not in any way appeal to me. Running around as a necromancer walking the line between life and death is another story entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eshbawn View Post
    Yep, it's all just a matter of "flavor" now...simply create new fantasy via pure fiat. Here come the hero's! LOL

    Some of you seriously need to go do something else...for at least 5 minutes.
    Last edited by PublicEnemy; 07-29-2019 at 04:56 PM.

  2. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eshbawn View Post
    I am not sure what you mean by calling negative energy "unholy", but just as a side note Baelnorn's liches commonly have a lawful good alignment.

    Seriously though, is it just practically not feasible to provide something like an IG mechanic which transforms positive energy to negative energy and thus retaining the coherence of the undead type along with the traditional lore behind pos/neg energy? Til next
    Arent baelnorns created with positive energy though? I know Deathless are the actual "positive liches" but I didnt think Baelnorn creation was actually necromantic?

    And positive and negative are opposite. I support giving Shroud forms 50% positive, because they arent actually undead, but I dont think you can simply "convert" pos to neg anymore than you could convert cold to fire.

  3. #523
    Community Member Varr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    How about this:

    You are weaving negative energy around you and through you, giving you many of the traits of an Undead. However, this power comes at a cost - half of your Positive Healing is lost as this unholy energy corrupts your form.
    Pro Lore side, give in. More legit lore arguments that are just wasted energy.

    The twisting of concept goes bankrupt with PM Warforged inability to repair. Everyone, please shut down the argument by continuing to claim some level of continuity of concept with this.

    It is a QoL change and only that.

    Since its happening, and the fact this is a lore abmination is correct (even the past 6 years or so of lore in this game), just let our side be correct and your side be satisfied with the healing to improve your life.

    The Preview thread is open, why even continue this one. 27 pages arguing lore vs QoL and arguments this actually works as sensible mechanics and lore...…..we can make it to 40 I suppose. I bet a breakthrough is only pages away.
    Last edited by Varr; 07-29-2019 at 06:28 PM.
    Varr's all over. Cannith Varr getting the love currently.

  4. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    How about this:

    You are weaving negative energy around you and through you, giving you many of the traits of an Undead. However, this power comes at a cost - half of your Positive Healing is lost as this unholy energy corrupts your form.
    I like this.

    I never considered the "Shroud of…" to be real undead form because you can revert back to a living state at will, something that is impossible for real undeads.

  5. #525
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Default Oooooh YEAH!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Varr View Post
    we can make it to 40 I suppose. I bet a breakthrough is only pages away.
    “Too much of anything is bad, but too much good whiskey is barely enough.” ~ Mark Twain

    .57175.

  6. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    How about this:

    You are weaving negative energy around you and through you, giving you many of the traits of an Undead. However, this power comes at a cost - half of your Positive Healing is lost as this unholy energy corrupts your form.
    Well played. Make it so.
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  7. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelstar View Post
    DC calculation removed for brevity ...
    Thanks very much for the clarification, feel a lot better about the tree. Still would like constructs made vulnerable to SLAs instead of undead.
    Last edited by staffweilder; 07-29-2019 at 11:55 PM.

  8. #528
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    How about this:

    You are weaving negative energy around you and through you, giving you many of the traits of an Undead. However, this power comes at a cost - half of your Positive Healing is lost as this unholy energy corrupts your form.
    Still doesn't explain why being 100% effective at negative, only explains 50% positive. Going by this description, negative healing should be lowered too.

    Negative = lack of positive. If negative is 100 then positive is 0.


    One would think a dev gets it.

  9. #529
    Community Member xBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lppmor View Post
    LOL. I love how people complain about lore, and don't understand fantasy lore is just that - fantasy. You can simply change words to create a new fantasy.

    +1 to Lynnabel for that
    Lore does matter for role playing games. Without a good one, your game might end up being just an average casual slasher. For some games lore is a big part of it, some times even bigger than game mechanic itself. So changing lore drastically or\and often is not desirable.

  10. #530
    Community Member Requiro's Avatar
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    It’s funny that you guys care about +50% positive healing and not concentrate of the important stuff: NEW TREE.

    (On the second thought I change my mind and correct my previous post.)

    New changes are almost NERF (yes, I’m serious!) and require additional improvement to be good (or at least ok’ish ). Look at the Necrotic line – it’s still garbage. Look at the T5 stuff – what is interesting here? What we get from new abilities that we don’t already have live? At look what we lost. And we lost a lot!

    Necrotic line now cost SP, and gain fully meta and Spell Power. Improvement? Maybe – For low level PM only. Touch is still useless, Bolt becomes obsolete on level 13 and Blast cost still 9 AP. It was free of cast (HP with regeneration) but now it’s cost SP. For me it’s not improvements at all!

    New Shroud available on level 3. Improvements? Not really – we gain weaker version of all shrouds (so nerfs to low levels multi), we still forced to take Shroud improvements when we level up to gain more shroud improvements. End in the end we gain only almost the same power as we have now. For pure PM it’s clearly nerf!

    One new ability on Tier 4 (because Deathly Versatile is a nerf to what we have live) – Unholy Avatar. Well, this is a buff. But meaningless. More like QoL for Palemaster. Nothing changes at all.

    Skeletal Knight line got improvements? Well, not exactly. Skeletal gain nerf (no more Doublestrike) while we gain some perks. But these perks we gain live in Bone Armor and Lich Shroud! So we literally gain almost nothing, but require more AP cost!

    New Tier 5 abilities! Well… what is interesting here? Ascendant Shroud is week (compare to live version, well maybe Zombie got buffed…), Animate Ally is also funny (who what -50% positive healing?) or SL-a that will remove anytime you cast anything? Com’on. It’s a joke!

    Ah at least we got Greater Death Aura on Capstone. Well… this one is clearly improvement… Yes…? Well… No. +2 Intelligence we get live from Lich, and we do not forced to take PM Capstone. Greater Death Aura? Are we really need it? Right now live most PM don’t have problem with selfhealing. At least now they become immortal!

    So in the end, we got nerfed. Lich is dead. Wraith got nerfed. Necrotic line got nerfed (SP cost instead of HP) and still useless. T5 abilities are joke. If I don’t see something, please tell me.
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  11. #531
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    It's possible this has been covered already, as it is there are 27 pages to this now and Im slowly getting through it

    Currently, items with Deathblock XX% (Such as the Tempest Spine Legendary Armors) also dampen Palemaster healing.
    Currently, Radiant Forcefield (Currently an SLA in EK, which you mentioned specifically that you wanted to increase synergy with) dampens Palemaster healing
    Currently, Arcane Barrier (Also out of EK, which as above -Want Increased Synergy-, Basically another stacking Radiant Forcefield) dampens Palemaster healing
    Currently, Thick Skin out of Legendary Dreadnought (Basically just Radiant Forcefield again but also stacks!) dampens Palemaster healing.

    With all three effects going plus your Deathblock 27% item, right when you hit half health and need it most, you drop down to about 30% of your base healing. This isn't ideal, and I was hoping we might get this changed? Fixed?

    Also the fact that PM healing eats away at your spell block items like Pale Lavender, also needs to be addressed.

    If not slated to be changed / fixed / improved (whatever word you think fits best) immediately, I'd at least just like a comment saying devs are aware of this and are considering it? Maybe you want to leave the item deathblock alone. But, you say you want Synergy. Having abilities in EK that directly damage PM healing is not good, and I think those at the very least, should be addressed.


    Aside from that, I also had an idea that I thought I'd throw into the mix, to potentially help PMs heal more, as that seems to be one target that you guys are aiming at. What if you add Negative energy to the Empower Healing feat, and allow it to bump Harm and Death Auras when healing undead? And then allow Wizards to take it (For their healing only, not to buff negative offensive damage, if that's programable), and then I thought you could add the "Improved Empower Healing" thing into the "Improved Metamagics" enhancment.

    I figured it might be a nice optional boost, that people could go out of their way to take if they felt it was necessary, without just straight up adding pure power creep in for free
    Last edited by SpardaX; 07-30-2019 at 09:10 AM.
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  12. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post

    Necrotic line now cost SP, and gain fully meta and Spell Power. Improvement? Maybe – For low level PM only. Touch is still useless, Bolt becomes obsolete on level 13 and Blast cost still 9 AP. It was free of cast (HP with regeneration) but now it’s cost SP. For me it’s not improvements at all!
    That's fair. If it's not for you, it's not for you. I dont use these either. But they -are- better. And the Devs have been saying for years, "Its HP and no Metas, or SP and Metas. Take your pick." So it looks like that's finally been decided.

    New Shroud available on level 3. Improvements? Not really – we gain weaker version of all shrouds (so nerfs to low levels multi), we still forced to take Shroud improvements when we level up to gain more shroud improvements. End in the end we gain only almost the same power as we have now. For pure PM it’s clearly nerf!
    Yea they start weaker, but thats because we can select which ever one we want at level 3, we dont have to, for example, wait till level 12 to get wraith if wraith is what you wanted for the incorporeality, or whichever you want for whatever reason. Now instead of getting
    "Shroud I dont want, Shroud I dont want, Shroud I want finally!, Shroud I dont want, Capstone"
    It's
    "Shroud I want! Buff to shroud! Buff to shroud! Buff to shroud! Capstone"

    Does it end out roughly the same as before? Yea I guess. But they were good before, and they'll be good now. The difference is, they're more customizable, and there fore, better for whatever you want them to do (while probably being a bit worse at a thing you dont care about /shrug)

    One new ability on Tier 4 (because Deathly Versatile is a nerf to what we have live) – Unholy Avatar. Well, this is a buff. But meaningless. More like QoL for Palemaster. Nothing changes at all.
    The game is made up of roughly 20 - 30% of enemies that are immune to negative damage (That might even be a low estimate). We now have a way to hurt them, that a lot of us simply didn't before. "Nothing changes at all.", I'm afraid I'll have to agree to disagree.

    Skeletal Knight line got improvements? Well, not exactly. Skeletal gain nerf (no more Doublestrike) while we gain some perks. But these perks we gain live in Bone Armor and Lich Shroud! So we literally gain almost nothing, but require more AP cost!
    I'm kinda meh on the skeletal knight line myself currently. But at least by taking it, we get buffs to us as well. That's pretty neat.

    New Tier 5 abilities! Well… what is interesting here? Ascendant Shroud is week (compare to live version, well maybe Zombie got buffed…),
    ...Is it weak though?

    Zombie gets +20% HP and Melee Power. That seems quite potent. But you mention that "Maybe zombie got a buff", so lets cover the others.

    Vampire gets to Paralyze everyone he touches, with a spell DC equal to Eldritch Blast at level 3. That is crazy good (at least in heroics) for a melee character. That's instant stun against everyone for 1.5x damage. Don't want to play a Melee Wizard? That's fair.

    Wraith gained 3 sneak attack dice in total and +3 dodge cap. Wraith lost I think between 5 and 15 Hide and Move Silently (I could be wrong here though) and 20 Balance. I agree, screw sneak attack dice and dodge cap, I WANT MY BALANCE BACK! (Not really)

    And Lich...Well Lich seems pretty meh to me to be honest. But, as has been said previously in the thread by one of the Devs, it will still come out 1 DC higher than current. And it boosts that MRR cap, so thats neat I guess.

    Animate Ally is also funny (who what -50% positive healing?) or SL-a that will remove anytime you cast anything? Com’on. It’s a joke!
    I also agree with you here! Stop letting Wizards easily raise an ally with 50% healing reduction! Bring back the terrible version that caused damage and had a 100% healing reduction! It's Better!
    As for Dark Discorp, I'm pretty much with you there. It's a neat gimmick though, I think it's fine. I'm sure there are situations where Id even use it. If I didnt already have my Tier 5 Radiant Forcefield SLA. /shrug

    Ah at least we got Greater Death Aura on Capstone. Well… this one is clearly improvement… Yes…? Well… No. +2 Intelligence we get live from Lich, and we do not forced to take PM Capstone. Greater Death Aura? Are we really need it? Right now live most PM don’t have problem with selfhealing. At least now they become immortal!
    In regular difficulties, you are completely correct. But if you've been on these forums at all in the last few months, people have been up in arms about PMs in reaper difficulty, and their complete INability to competently heal themselves through the reaper heal penalty. I believe this is here to mainly address that. Do they need the 50% Positive Heal Amp as well as this? Maybe not. But it's a capstone ability, and it is a DAMN STRONG one. (Atleast outside of reaper it is) I think its cool, and I'm not going to complain.

    So in the end, we got nerfed. Lich is dead. Wraith got nerfed. Necrotic line got nerfed (SP cost instead of HP) and still useless. T5 abilities are joke. If I don’t see something, please tell me.
    I hope I haven't been too rude, my intention is only to joke around.
    Please let me know how I did in regards to some things you might have missed or underestimated.
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  13. #533
    The Eternal Rapscallion Haphazarduk's Avatar
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    By the way is Zombie Form just +20MP or actually properly +20% damage like EK cap? I'm really hoping the latter as otherwise it doesn't in any way offset the attack rate penalty.

    Hap

  14. #534
    Community Member Requiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpardaX View Post
    (snip)
    I hope I haven't been too rude, my intention is only to joke around.
    Please let me know how I did in regards to some things you might have missed or underestimated.
    I don’t think you understood me well (maybe because of my poor English), but:

    1. What is the point of work on abilities that remain useless? (Necrotic line and Animate Ally) All they need to do it, is put numbers in Excel, and made some improvements
    2. I do not complain about earlier use of some shroud. I complain about loss of power of the shrouds overall.
    3. Zombie got buffed (melee). Vampire got buffed (healing and melee). Wraith get nerfed (-10% incorporeal miss chance, no Balance skill, but again melee buffed), Lich was nerfed (lower stats, HP shield gone, lower DC, no more PRR, only MMR and NSP buffed). So overall we got buffed for melee Wizards – great! I guess everyone forgot that Wizard is core casting character.
    4. So what about the fact that 30% of enemies are immune to negative damage? You are still wizard, and can easily destroy that enemies, with other spells. Unholy Avatar, is QoL only – now you can use all spells without even read what you destroy.
    5. You did not understand my complaining about Skeletal line. It give us buff that was removed from us from Bone Armor ability (PRR). If we want if back, then we must pay additional AP cost.
    6. I agree that Greater Death Aura is improvement. But I don’t think that it is require. That is all


    My point is, that all tree pass look like Developers in clever way removed some abilities from tree, then put in back in other place. We got the same or less abilities than before. But I agree that melee wizard (sic!) got buffed. Option to get other than Zombie early is also cool. What is not cool is generally the lack of tree improvements.

    I will be happy if they do:

    1. Remove Necrotic Touch (it’s so much useless) – for lower AP cost on Necrotic SLA
    2. Necrotic SLA should gain 150% Spell Power
    3. Necrotic Bolt should do 1d6+2 damage
    4. Necrotic Blast should do 1d6+1 damage
    5. Combine Skeletal Knight to Core 1 (and lower rest of the line down for free up one Tier 4 space)
    6. Add additional Tier 4 Improved Shrouding multiselector
    7. Remove that Dark Discorp SL-a (well, they can put it on the Improved Shrouding multiselector for fun) and place here Finger od Death (like in Warlocks tree)
    8. Add passive to Animate Ally: While you are in any Shroud you gain Boon of Undeath ability.
    9. Bring back: “occasionally gain temporary hit points when damaged” in Ascendant Shroud Lich form
    10. Add something more to Lich (like additional % critical change with Negative Spell power, or additional % critical spell damage with Negative Spell power or any other casting ability, not melee)
    11. Add some more option to Improved Shrouding multiselector

    With these changes:

    - Necrotic line will be cheaper and more useful.
    - Shrouds will be more individual because of more option to take
    - Tier 5 abilities will be worth taking
    - And Lich will be useful again

    BTW: I did not feel offended. I hope you do not..
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  15. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpardaX View Post
    Currently, items with Deathblock XX% (Such as the Tempest Spine Legendary Armors) also dampen Palemaster healing.
    Currently, Radiant Forcefield (Currently an SLA in EK, which you mentioned specifically that you wanted to increase synergy with) dampens Palemaster healing
    Currently, Thick Skin out of Legendary Dreadnought (Basically just Radiant Forcefield again but also stacks!) dampens Palemaster healing.
    As for deathblock, it is made on purpose to lock PMs out of certains items (and that's okay)
    For radiant forcefield, I agree it shouldn't dampen the healing but I don't know if they changed/touched it with the last EK pass...
    It didn't seem to me that thick skin was dampening the healing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post
    If I don’t see something, please tell me.
    Yes, your analysis was quite wrong (either it's a nerf or it's trash anyway, right?) but Spardax covered pretty much of it..

    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post
    2. I do not complain about earlier use of some shroud. I complain about loss of power of the shrouds overall.
    So you're gonna go over the fact (again) that they ALL (except the zombie but this one makes sense) gained some INT...? (speaking of wraith and vampire specifically)
    Last edited by PublicEnemy; 07-30-2019 at 10:19 AM.

  16. #536
    Community Member Requiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    Yes, your analysis was quite wrong (either it's a nerf or it's trash anyway, right?) but Spardax covered pretty much of it..

    So you're gonna go over the fact (again) that they ALL (except the zombie but this one makes sense) gained some INT...? (speaking of wraith and vampire specifically)
    Well. IMO Spardax cover almost nothing.

    You mean that Wraith and Vampire gets +2 Intelligence? (because Lich get nerf from +4 to +2). So where is the improvement compared to the current Lich??

    But on the other hand, you know that Wraith get nerf from 35% Incorporeal miss chance to 25%, when they realize how weak Lich will be?
    Now I'm waiting for Vampire nerf...

    But hey - they all got more melee abilities - cool. That is what I waiting for on Wizard (BAB 0.5, 1d4 HP) Casting Class
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  17. #537
    Community Member Cadveen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post
    I don’t think you understood me well (maybe because of my poor English), but:

    1. What is the point of work on abilities that remain useless? (Necrotic line and Animate Ally) All they need to do it, is put numbers in Excel, and made some improvements
    2. I do not complain about earlier use of some shroud. I complain about loss of power of the shrouds overall.
    3. Zombie got buffed (melee). Vampire got buffed (healing and melee). Wraith get nerfed (-10% incorporeal miss chance, no Balance skill, but again melee buffed), Lich was nerfed (lower stats, HP shield gone, lower DC, no more PRR, only MMR and NSP buffed). So overall we got buffed for melee Wizards – great! I guess everyone forgot that Wizard is core casting character.
    4. So what about the fact that 30% of enemies are immune to negative damage? You are still wizard, and can easily destroy that enemies, with other spells. Unholy Avatar, is QoL only – now you can use all spells without even read what you destroy.
    5. You did not understand my complaining about Skeletal line. It give us buff that was removed from us from Bone Armor ability (PRR). If we want if back, then we must pay additional AP cost.
    6. I agree that Greater Death Aura is improvement. But I don’t think that it is require. That is all


    My point is, that all tree pass look like Developers in clever way removed some abilities from tree, then put in back in other place. We got the same or less abilities than before. But I agree that melee wizard (sic!) got buffed. Option to get other than Zombie early is also cool. What is not cool is generally the lack of tree improvements.

    I will be happy if they do:

    1. Remove Necrotic Touch (it’s so much useless) – for lower AP cost on Necrotic SLA
    2. Necrotic SLA should gain 150% Spell Power
    3. Necrotic Bolt should do 1d6+2 damage
    4. Necrotic Blast should do 1d6+1 damage
    5. Combine Skeletal Knight to Core 1 (and lower rest of the line down for free up one Tier 4 space)
    6. Add additional Tier 4 Improved Shrouding multiselector
    7. Remove that Dark Discorp SL-a (well, they can put it on the Improved Shrouding multiselector for fun) and place here Finger od Death (like in Warlocks tree)
    8. Add passive to Animate Ally: While you are in any Shroud you gain Boon of Undeath ability.
    9. Bring back: “occasionally gain temporary hit points when damaged” in Ascendant Shroud Lich form
    10. Add something more to Lich (like additional % critical change with Negative Spell power, or additional % critical spell damage with Negative Spell power or any other casting ability, not melee)
    11. Add some more option to Improved Shrouding multiselector

    With these changes:

    - Necrotic line will be cheaper and more useful.
    - Shrouds will be more individual because of more option to take
    - Tier 5 abilities will be worth taking
    - And Lich will be useful again

    BTW: I did not feel offended. I hope you do not..
    +1
    Although circle of death would be acceptable as SLA as well. Devs please consider our inputs. You make many valid points. I am unsure what their thought process has been on any of the changes. Wizards are the pinnacle of arcane casting. I am not really sure the emphasis on low quality melee perks. Sure have some low tier multi class options but don’t ruin the entire purpose of the wizard.

    Devs please look up the story of the midnight watchman. It is a perfect metaphor of you losing sight of what the wizard is supposed to be.

  18. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazarduk View Post
    By the way is Zombie Form just +20MP or actually properly +20% damage like EK cap? I'm really hoping the latter as otherwise it doesn't in any way offset the attack rate penalty.

    Hap
    Its gotta be +20% damage like Relentless Fury, or else yeah its an absolute DPS loss if its just +20 MP

    Really I think the Zombie penalty needs rethinking. As it is, its a slight penalty in terms of DPS (0.8*1.2 = 0.96), and a big penalty in terms of flexibility and hitrate. All things being equal, its better to do the same DPS through lots of fast hits than slower, bigger ones. Its a penalty to anything that's on-hit based (like Fetters, or EK, which I imagine most melee PMs are going to take). It also means you're punished more for missing attacks.

    I know they're probably scared of giving too much to Zombie and having it become a /3 Wiz splash for every build...but I think changing it to 20% damage/-10% speed is really enough. That way Zombie form is a net DPS gain (1.2 * 0.9 = 1.08), and its not penalizing you quite as harshly for on-hit procs. Zombie becomes the option for pure DPS builds, while Spectre is for defense, Vampire is for regen, and Lich is for casting.
    Last edited by droid327; 07-30-2019 at 04:03 PM.

  19. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post
    Well. IMO Spardax cover almost nothing.

    You mean that Wraith and Vampire gets +2 Intelligence? (because Lich get nerf from +4 to +2). So where is the improvement compared to the current Lich??

    But on the other hand, you know that Wraith get nerf from 35% Incorporeal miss chance to 25%, when they realize how weak Lich will be?
    Now I'm waiting for Vampire nerf...

    +

    5. You did not understand my complaining about Skeletal line. It give us buff that was removed from us from Bone Armor ability (PRR). If we want if back, then we must pay additional AP cost.
    I'll start with your point 5 to get it out of the way early. They've added a fair amount of PRR to Zombie and they've added the Dodge directly into Wraith. So its only Vampire and Lich that miss that 10 from Bone Armor. I didnt misunderstand you. I agree with you on this! You're right, it's in with the skeleton summon. It also gives +15 in the skeleton summon one. So you actually get 5 more. And if you're a Zombie, you get +18 more total. Or if you're happy with just 10, spend 2 points, 2 points, 2 points. You get your 10, and a summon pet all at once. It is still 3 more points than the 3 you want to spend. That's true. But considering the wraith DOES have it's 3 dodge put directly into Wraith (at tier 5), getting your now 15 PRR from the skeleton is actually 15 PRR you didnt have otherwise (Since Im beginning to think you want to play wraith). But yes, on a Vamp or Lich, itl just end up being +5 PRR total, and far more expensive than it was before. (Assuming you wont actually use your skeleton toy) It sucks, and I completely agree.

    They've also removed crappy abilities though, and since you wont be taking the SLAs anyway, I think you'll probably end up throwing some points into skeleton to get to 41 anyway. Since they have done a pretty good job on fusing abilities together. (As for the other note about the SLA's themselves, that's just a universal point now. Most SLAs should probably be bumped to 1d6+2, and they seem to be working on it. I don't think they should be at 150% spell power though. But I wont complain if that happens.)

    Also one quick other note before I move on. The fact that Animate Ally no longer kills them after 1 minute, is actually a HUGE buff, because yes, it means they take 50% penalty to positive healing, but it also means YOU with your Aura, CAN NOW HEAL that party member. And if you are USING Animate Ally, chances are good thats because there isnt a Healer there who can raise them. So the healing penalty doesnt matter if there isnt a healer there. Before, you still COULD, but they were going to DIE ANYWAY. Now, completely as a byproduct, we basically have the artificer "Repair now heals target ally" thing, FOR FREE. Just in case you missed that stealth buff. Just think. You and a buddy are the only 2 in a quest. You dont have anyone who can heal. Your buddy dies. You say "Thats ok" and get him back up, and the two of you run through the rest of the quest healing off your Aura like gods among men

    Now on to the post I actually quoted!

    The improvements are in the cores, 3, 4 and 5.

    That 10% Incorporality you seem to be missing? Im not sure how you hit that number, but I think its in the cores.

    Base Wraith = 10%.
    Tier 5 Ascendant Shroud = +10%
    Possible Core choice = 15%.
    10+10+15 = 35%

    The difference is, that 15% choice, is a choice that everyone can take! Lichs with 15% incorp are possible now. Zombies and Vamps with 15% incorp are possible now.

    The improvement compared to current Lich?

    Once again, it's right there in the cores.
    Lets look.

    Current live is this:
    Lich gets +2 Int Base. +2 Int from Tier 5 ability.
    And also +2 Int from Capstone.
    They also get an innate +1 to Necro DCs.
    That's +6 Int and +1 Necro DCs.

    Proposed Changes:
    Lich gets +2 Int Base. And that's it. But theyve moved that missing int from Lich, INTO the Capstone
    Which now gives +4 Int
    And you can now choose to get +2 to Necro DCs out of your cores.
    That's still +6 Int, and +2 Necro DCs.

    That means you are doing 1 better than normal, BUT it ALSO means that since the power has been moved out of Lich specifically, and into general options and the capstone, you can get that +4 Int and +2 Necro DCs on any form So you can be the Wraith you apparently always wanted to be, WITH your 35% incorporality (As I covered above) and still be on par with Lich, since Wraith gives +2 Int now as well!

    Or if you LIKE the defenses and Con that they gave the Lich, you can take that instead and still be better than you are now!

    Think of it this way if it helps. It used to be this:
    Zombie is bad, but is a melee form.
    Vampire is the enchantment casting form.
    Wraith is a good melee / defence form
    Lich is a good Necro and Enchantment casting form.

    But NOW it's:

    Zombie has melee and health abilities, but the slow attack speed. But is slightly worse at casting than the rest.
    Vampire is the form that has the Paralyzing
    Wraith is the form that has the physical defence
    Lich is the form that has the extra health and magical defence

    All Forms now are also completely capable of being Casting forms. Or Melee forms. Or whatever style you want to fit it into. Or none. It's all up to you! Because All forms but Zombie get +6 Int and +2 DCs of your choice. And Zombie only falls behind by 2 int. But arguably +20% HP is going to make up for that for some people.

    They lowered the base power of the Lich, because you get it at level 3 instead of 18, but as you take cores, you can BUILD that power back up to Slightly Higher than before.

    I'm going to do 2 things for you. I'm going to link the Core options for 3, 4 and 5 so you can re read them, and add some notes

    Core 3: Multiselector:

    Deathly Tough: 15 Maximum Hit Points ...Now everyone can not use! Wait what did I just say?
    Deathly Resistance: 15 Magical Resistance Rating, +2 to all Saves
    Inflict Weariness: Your attacks inflict 2-9 points of Negative Energy damage to a living target. This scales with 100% Spell Power. Your Vorpal Melee Hits cause Energy Drain, inflicting 1 Negative Level on victims. - Bit taken from Lich, Bit taken from Vamp, now everyone can use! Melee Option
    Haunting in the Dark: +2 Assassinate DCs. - Rogue Option
    Ghost in the Wind: +15% Incorporeal Miss Chance. (If you are in Wraith Form, this increases your total to 25%). - What I assume is your missing Incorporality chance? Now everyone can use!
    Deathly Power: +10 to Negative Energy Spellpower.
    +2 Necromancy DC - Taken out of Lich. Bumped to +2. Now everyone can use! This is how not only Liches, but all current forms are going to be pushed slightly higher, and I think its one you want.
    +2 Enchantment DC - Taken from Vamp. Now everyone can use!
    Undead Chill: +15% bonus to Cold Absorption. You no longer take extra damage from Light.
    Undead Shock: +15% bonus to Electric Absorption. You no longer take extra damage from Light.
    Unhallowed Touch: You gain Ghost Touch on all attacks, +5 Hide and Move Silently Taken from Wraith. Now everyone can use! (But shouldn't. If you need Ghost Touch, take it from Core 2 EK)

    Let me also link the very first paragraph of this thread for you.

    Some of our goals for this pass included:

    Make Pale Master less about progressing through increasingly-powerful Undead Forms and more about picking a single (or multiple) forms to specialize in
    Give each Undead Form a unique playstyle
    Allow players to specialize without enforcing each form completely into a specific role
    Help parties effectively interact with Undead players
    Provide an actual way for Pale Masters to combat undead
    Help address concerns of survivability

    I want you to read that first point.

    Make Pale Master less about progressing through increasingly-powerful Undead Forms and more about picking a single (or multiple) forms to specialize in

    Lich lost some power. Yes. Because it, and the other forms have all been equalized. Lich, being the final and most OP form, needed to be dropped down the most. But its so you can choose the form YOU like the most, and make IT better than all current forms. And it doesnt matter which form you do it to.

    That is what the new tree is.

    Also a note to the devs who might have read this far
    Whats the chance of getting one of those Core selector options put in at T4 or T5? Or one in the Capstone maybe?
    I feel like 3 options for that might not be enough when I imagine everyone is going to just take
    Incorp
    +2 Necro DCs
    And then one other. Probably Enchant DCs.

    Also if we really want to make the skeleton toy a thing, please let us equip stuff to it like the wolves and robo dogs. Because regardless of how much you buff them, if we cant do that, Im not sure the skeleton is ever going to really be good enough.
    Last edited by SpardaX; 07-30-2019 at 09:43 PM.
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  20. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post
    Well. IMO Spardax cover almost nothing.

    You mean that Wraith and Vampire gets +2 Intelligence? (because Lich get nerf from +4 to +2). So where is the improvement compared to the current Lich??

    But on the other hand, you know that Wraith get nerf from 35% Incorporeal miss chance to 25%, when they realize how weak Lich will be?
    Now I'm waiting for Vampire nerf...

    But hey - they all got more melee abilities - cool. That is what I waiting for on Wizard (BAB 0.5, 1d4 HP) Casting Class
    Steel clairly said that there's some synergies with EK (which gives full BAB btw) too bad you don't care about it, but guess what? I don't care!

    Oh and btw, fun fact, you gain +1 DC total ABOVE the last tree, take your candy and go whine somewhere else.
    Last edited by PublicEnemy; 07-30-2019 at 08:54 PM.

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