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  1. #301
    Community Member Cadveen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noinfo View Post
    At the moment Lich is probably the weakest of the forms, Wraith is great defense and Vampire is better casting with the bonus to enchant.

    Lich needs something to give it a boost though I don't think direct necro dc boost is necessarily it.

    Lich form giving evards etc or +1 to transmute or something different rather than just boosting necro as the devs don't want it any higher if its +1 extra necro it would become the form of choice. I like the viability of other ones now but lich should have something worthwhile.
    Allow the lich to have 2 additional level 4 spell slots...and maybe have 10% inate magical efficiency spell cost reduction

  2. #302
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noinfo View Post
    At the moment Lich is probably the weakest of the forms, Wraith is great defense and Vampire is better casting with the bonus to enchant.

    Lich needs something to give it a boost though I don't think direct necro dc boost is necessarily it.

    Lich form giving evards etc or +1 to transmute or something different rather than just boosting necro as the devs don't want it any higher if its +1 extra necro it would become the form of choice. I like the viability of other ones now but lich should have something worthwhile.
    First, I highly, highly doubt they'll ever give black tentacles to wizards/sorcs. I wish people would stop asking for this.

    From what it looks like, they're trying to design the Lich to be better at negative energy damage (which, honestly, ranks pretty low on the totem pole for magic damage, no matter what you do to it). I agree that Lich should be better at necromancy casting, but giving the Lich the +1 necromancy DC makes it a no-brainer choice for just about 80% of pale master builds, which I think is what the devs were trying to avoid. As that changed, Wraith became the best form for it's potential 35% incorporeal bonus, with Vampire coming in second for its enchantment bonus.

    A paltry few negative spellpower and a bit of MRR doesn't make Lich nearly as enticing as it should be. If they're not going the 'Lich is the penultimate necromancy DC caster' route then they need to give them something better than this setup.
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  3. #303
    Community Member noinfo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadveen View Post
    Allow the lich to have 2 additional level 4 spell slots...and maybe have 10% inate magical efficiency spell cost reduction
    Magical efficiency probably wont stack with gear so not much of a draw. 1 or 2 universal slots would be unique but unlikely.
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  4. #304
    Community Member Cadveen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noinfo View Post
    Magical efficiency probably wont stack with gear so not much of a draw. 1 or 2 universal slots would be unique but unlikely.
    25% magical efficiency with necromancy spells only. The majority of the necro spells are smashed into level 4. If not extra spell slots which would be unique, as you mentioned, allow them to slot lower level necro spells into higher level spots. Level 8 spells are fairly useless anyways

  5. #305
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    Default how about some QoL fixes too?

    While I appreciate the attention you're giving to pale masters, how about some QoL fixes instead of all the power creep?

    1) PMs shouldn't be healed by positive energy. I think having a greater death aura + death aura + lesser death aura + neg energy burst should be plenty. Otherwise, you'll probably see a new tank meta with undead for the immunities and healing + positive healing, which you'll then have to nerf later hurting those who actually like playing PMs.

    2) SLAs: good change! We've been asking for that for years.

    3) QoL fix: fix neg energy burst so it's an untargetable spell. Right now, if I have a enemy targeted, break line of sight, then try to cast it, it says invalid target. Very annoying to have to remove my target first. I've died several times because of this.

    4) QoL fix: with all the investment the skeletal knight takes, please make it at least as tanky as the scarecrow. Also, how about level 30 summons for the magister line?

    5) QoL fix: up the damage on horrid wilting. You forgot this one in the spell pass.

    6) Give us some other form of CC for constructs besides web. Evard's maybe?

    7) Another spell for constructs would be nice, like deconstruct.

    8) The level 9 spell you're planning on looks good.

    9) Letting undead be hurt by neg energy: no, that is not DnD. Scrap it please. Instead, why don't you reduce the cooldown on undeath to death?

  6. #306
    Community Member Khurse's Avatar
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    I think it's close enough to be used thematically right now, but if Lich is actually that far behind just bump the MRR to a level that's noticeably useful and it would be fine.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    I do worry that the ghostly effect will not stack with items providing the same, but you have probably already thought of thus.
    I wanted confirmation on this too. I assume they are all typed differently so I assume something will stack with items. depending on which that could be good or bad. I think the t5 being typed same as item would be too op, and I think the basic wraith type the same would be lame, I'd go for the core upgrade the same type: allowing itemization at 5% less than taking it makes a real choice available.

    On other changes:

    Back in the cap 20 days, the PM SLA being hp cost was insanely powerful due to sustainability, these days I don't have an issue with going to SP cost to allow metas.

    I'd like to see the T5 shroud reduce the zombie speed penalty.

    I fell like wraith form is losing more than other forms and has to buy it back to not be all the way back to where it is now.

    I think we need to get some negative spell power per point, that's a big loss. Or greatly increase the per core reward, even if you stack it in later cores.

    Greater Death aura looks very strong.

    Avatar, seems on par with sorc/tiefling/druid effects though should probably be T5. Maybe swap with necromantic focus or dark discorp?

    Overall. Looks like good changes. Giving 50% positive along with the greater death aura maybe over the top though. I'd probably make it not stack with regular death aura.
    I do feel that wraith form is taking a big hit though.
    The 2 assassinate Dc is kinda a waste of time: int based class not wis no falconry synergy, too costly to splash to a rog assassin.
    "chance to" worries me about several effects, viability totally depends on proc rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hephaestas View Post
    Meanwhile, in the trend of making everything viable for melees... Zombie is frankly OP. 20% hp is one thing, but ALSO +20 melee power? So a Pale Master gets to have it's cake and eat it too? Unlike most actual DPS Melee classes, who have a defense + an offense tree.
    Did you forget the -20% speed, that's huge and 20MP means nothing compared to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blah2 View Post
    This 50% is SOOOOOOOO DISGUSTING. Numerous times players make suggestions and the response is: "That does not fit the FLAVOR" . 50% healing from positive energy tastes (flavor) like the ooze between an orcs toes
    IT MAKES NO SENSE

    Undead are NOT healed by positive energy PERIOD. I get in its current state PM s are often excluded from epic reapers because of healing issues. This is just a dumb fix
    But robots are? really it makes more sense that a living being that is wrapped in negative energy gets some healing than a robot. PM are not undead, they are undead posers. I like the suggestion some made of making it like the choice between repair systems and healers friend rather than free.

    Maybe the positive heal could be form dependent? It makes sense for a vampire to heal positive being fleshy, but less so wraith? I'm thinking 50% vampire, 25% zombie/lich, 0 wraith.
    Last edited by Cantor; 07-19-2019 at 11:26 AM.

  8. #308
    Community Member Cadveen's Avatar
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    Mantle of invulnerability that is applied with greater death aura. Maybe have up to level 6 spells. Archmage should definitely have something like that. They should also get mirror image and in quest teleport. Although I love wizards, I felt with the introduction of warlocks the wizard of lore became watered down.

    MSGA - make staves good again

    Add billowing robes! New Sharon robes were a major step up...thanks

    Last idea: add contingency spell slots. Most wizards can set up contingency spells. The arcane barrier in eldritch knight is a perfect example.

    Lich - they are necro arch mages..make them so

  9. #309
    Community Member janave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadveen View Post
    Mantle of invulnerability that is applied with greater death aura. Maybe have up to level 6 spells. Archmage should definitely have something like that. They should also get mirror image and in quest teleport. Although I love wizards, I felt with the introduction of warlocks the wizard of lore became watered down.

    MSGA - make staves good again

    Add billowing robes! New Sharon robes were a major step up...thanks

    Last idea: add contingency spell slots. Most wizards can set up contingency spells. The arcane barrier in eldritch knight is a perfect example.

    Lich - they are necro arch mages..make them so
    dont forget high factor sunscreen

  10. #310
    Community Member Cadveen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janave View Post
    dont forget high factor sunscreen
    +1
    Agreed there is only 1 traditional wizard hat in the game and it’s just a cosmetic. I assume that’s what you meant by sunscreen; large floppy hats of power.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by vik1 View Post
    9) Letting undead be hurt by neg energy: no, that is not DnD.
    Correct, as much as DDO is not DnD.


    As for the Lich form, maybe add some % spell crit damage on it...? Or yeah, like it was said already, bump up the MRR numbers and/or give it some SR (spell resistance)? I don't know but I agree that maybe
    the Lich could have a little more.
    Last edited by PublicEnemy; 07-19-2019 at 12:52 PM.

  12. #312
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    Would you consider adding threat generation to zombie? from what i am reading it would be an interesting off tank.

  13. #313
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    Quick changes round-up:

    We're dropping the incorp % of Wraith form. 10% base form, 10% core 3-4-5 choice (Ghost in the Wind), 5% Ascendant Shroud for a total of 25% instead of 35% like it is on live. From our discussions and what feedback you guys have given, it is very clear that the current Incorp % as it stands on live is high enough to outweigh almost every other form's benefits, and we are going to reign that in for this update.

    We're raising the Negative Spell Power available in the cores. Previously, with 40 points in PM, you'd end up with (40 * .75) 30 Negative and 30 Universal Spell Power, and the cores we wrote together only covered 18 of that. The Cores are being changed to provide 5 Negative and 5 Universal Spell Power each, bringing the numbers for a full tree up to the same for a 40 point investment*.

    Deathly Tough is being changed from 15 HP to 25 HP and 5 PRR.

    Haunting in the Dark is picking up an additional Sneak Attack die in addition to its +2 Assassinate DC.

    Lich form's Base and Ascendant Form is going from 5 Negative Spell Power to 10 Negative Spell Power, for a total of +20 Negative Spell Power in Ascendant Lich.

    Zombie Form is getting +2 Strength in addition to its current benefits.


    * Yes - I am aware the capstone is the 41st point.
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  14. #314
    Community Member Garix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post

    We're dropping the incorp % of Wraith form. 10% base form, 10% core 3-4-5 choice (Ghost in the Wind), 5% Ascendant Shroud for a total of 25% instead of 35% like it is on live. From our discussions and what feedback you guys have given, it is very clear that the current Incorp % as it stands on live is high enough to outweigh almost every other form's benefits, and we are going to reign that in for this update.
    Queue the "Now there's no point in going Wraith" posts..............
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  15. #315
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    Lynnabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garix View Post
    Queue the "Now there's no point in going Wraith" posts..............
    I sincerely hope the forums don't let me down in this regard :P
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  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    We're dropping the incorp % of Wraith form. 10% base form, 10% core 3-4-5 choice (Ghost in the Wind), 5% Ascendant Shroud for a total of 25% instead of 35% like it is on live. From our discussions and what feedback you guys have given, it is very clear that the current Incorp % as it stands on live is high enough to outweigh almost every other form's benefits, and we are going to reign that in for this update.
    That's still 30% incorp if you take the 5% stacking incorp core in EK, though, right?

    Too bad that -20% attack speed pretty much makes Zombie incompatible with EK though - I'm assuming the 20% bonus damage doesnt affect Spellsword procs
    Last edited by droid327; 07-19-2019 at 02:28 PM.

  17. #317
    Community Member Cadveen's Avatar
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    Default SLA’s

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Quick changes round-up:

    We're dropping the incorp % of Wraith form. 10% base form, 10% core 3-4-5 choice (Ghost in the Wind), 5% Ascendant Shroud for a total of 25% instead of 35% like it is on live. From our discussions and what feedback you guys have given, it is very clear that the current Incorp % as it stands on live is high enough to outweigh almost every other form's benefits, and we are going to reign that in for this update.

    We're raising the Negative Spell Power available in the cores. Previously, with 40 points in PM, you'd end up with (40 * .75) 30 Negative and 30 Universal Spell Power, and the cores we wrote together only covered 18 of that. The Cores are being changed to provide 5 Negative and 5 Universal Spell Power each, bringing the numbers for a full tree up to the same for a 40 point investment*.

    Deathly Tough is being changed from 15 HP to 25 HP and 5 PRR.

    Haunting in the Dark is picking up an additional Sneak Attack die in addition to its +2 Assassinate DC.

    Lich form's Base and Ascendant Form is going from 5 Negative Spell Power to 10 Negative Spell Power, for a total of +20 Negative Spell Power in Ascendant Lich.

    Zombie Form is getting +2 Strength in addition to its current benefits.


    * Yes - I am aware the capstone is the 41st point.
    Although I felt I have given numerous flavor ideas can you please cover the rationale of why warlock gets a finger of death SLA but palemaster does not. And evards?....

  18. #318
    Community Member Requiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Quick changes round-up:

    We're dropping the incorp % of Wraith form. 10% base form, 10% core 3-4-5 choice (Ghost in the Wind), 5% Ascendant Shroud for a total of 25% instead of 35% like it is on live. From our discussions and what feedback you guys have given, it is very clear that the current Incorp % as it stands on live is high enough to outweigh almost every other form's benefits, and we are going to reign that in for this update.

    We're raising the Negative Spell Power available in the cores. Previously, with 40 points in PM, you'd end up with (40 * .75) 30 Negative and 30 Universal Spell Power, and the cores we wrote together only covered 18 of that. The Cores are being changed to provide 5 Negative and 5 Universal Spell Power each, bringing the numbers for a full tree up to the same for a 40 point investment*.

    Deathly Tough is being changed from 15 HP to 25 HP and 5 PRR.

    Haunting in the Dark is picking up an additional Sneak Attack die in addition to its +2 Assassinate DC.

    Lich form's Base and Ascendant Form is going from 5 Negative Spell Power to 10 Negative Spell Power, for a total of +20 Negative Spell Power in Ascendant Lich.

    Zombie Form is getting +2 Strength in addition to its current benefits.


    * Yes - I am aware the capstone is the 41st point.
    Nice improvements overall

    But I'm disappointed at Wraith nerf.

    Needless to say, sometimes dear forumites, Speech is silver, silence is golden....

    EDIT: Wait, wait wait... What about Negative Healing Amplification from Core 1?
    Last edited by Requiro; 07-19-2019 at 02:32 PM.
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  19. #319
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    Lynnabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post
    What about Negative Healing Amplification from Core 1?
    Same as it is in the OP of this thread. Why do you ask?
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  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Quick changes round-up:

    We're dropping the incorp % of Wraith form. 10% base form, 10% core 3-4-5 choice (Ghost in the Wind), 5% Ascendant Shroud for a total of 25% instead of 35% like it is on live. From our discussions and what feedback you guys have given, it is very clear that the current Incorp % as it stands on live is high enough to outweigh almost every other form's benefits, and we are going to reign that in for this update.
    If it still stacks with Subtle force 2 that is still an attainable 30% incorp, so in theory can still get max dc pale master with sword n board from EK self healing, positive healing from others and enough hps/prr/mrr and skill points to tank r1 raids. R10 bosses may or may not be a stretch depends on gearing we will have to see.

    Thank you for this update, I welcome my ascension to god hood.
    Triple All

    Ghallanda forever.

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