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  1. #1
    Community Member Amorais's Avatar
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    Default The Rescue - Derward the suicidal dwarf

    Designers - please please please stop using abysmal AI as an excuse for making things hard.

    1 mob noticed Derward. Derward runs toward it to give it a big hug - for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Instantly dies.

    30 mins wasted. Fun had zero. Frustration maximum. This is not how you design interesting and fun dungeons. Please can we just wall up Threnal completely and/or nuke the site from orbit?

    Never ever will I ever step foot in this putrid slime of a dungeon!

    RAAAGE

  2. #2
    FreeDeeOh PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorais View Post
    Designers - please please please stop using abysmal AI as an excuse for making things hard.

    1 mob noticed Derward. Derward runs toward it to give it a big hug - for absolutely no reason whatsoever. Instantly dies.

    30 mins wasted. Fun had zero. Frustration maximum. This is not how you design interesting and fun dungeons. Please can we just wall up Threnal completely and/or nuke the site from orbit?

    Never ever will I ever step foot in this putrid slime of a dungeon!

    RAAAGE
    The easiest way to do that dungeon is to run all the way to the bottom (killing everything on the way), and then NOT talk to Derward, just run back to the chest in his room. All the mobs spawn, so you can go clear your way back up to the entrance, THEN come down and get Derward and escort him in complete safety. It's longer, but it guarantees success.

    But, yes, Derward is one of the squishiest NPC's you have to escort in the game, and on Elite+ difficulty he will pretty much die in one hit.

  3. #3
    Community Member Amorais's Avatar
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    I dont mind that he is squishy. What gets my goat is that he actively RUNS towards any enemies. Its pure spite by whoever designed the module and completely stupid/nonsensical.

  4. #4
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    I must have the mindset of a 12-year-old because I read the title as Derpwad and couldn't stop snickering.

    But yeah escorting Derpwad sucks.
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  5. #5
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    The easiest way to do that dungeon is to run all the way to the bottom (killing everything on the way), and then NOT talk to Derward, just run back to the chest in his room. All the mobs spawn, so you can go clear your way back up to the entrance, THEN come down and get Derward and escort him in complete safety. It's longer, but it guarantees success.

    But, yes, Derward is one of the squishiest NPC's you have to escort in the game, and on Elite+ difficulty he will pretty much die in one hit.
    NPC's respawn in Elite+, I thought. I distinctly remember moving slowly clearing the tunnels with him. Took an AFK to use the restroom and came back to a failure message.

    I'm so glad they don't use escort mission any longer. One of their best game design decisions ever. (and I did "knock on wood" after typing this too).
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    They have been tweaking the game since I started and often I disagree with them. They focus on wrong stuff, over or under compensate and abandon too much stuff. Every once in awhile they get something right, if only temporarily.

  6. #6
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    There's a reason my favorite escort quest in DDO is the mage (Bensen?) in Detour. At least he covers himself if he's getting rekt lol, and on occasion he even throws some useful spells
    -Khysiria of Cannith
    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  7. #7
    FreeDeeOh PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    NPC's respawn in Elite+, I thought. I distinctly remember moving slowly clearing the tunnels with him. Took an AFK to use the restroom and came back to a failure message.

    I'm so glad they don't use escort mission any longer. One of their best game design decisions ever. (and I did "knock on wood" after typing this too).
    Nope, that's the Coyle escort quest. That one you do have to keep him with you because they do respawn. In Derward's quest they do not.

  8. #8
    Community Member YUTANG75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    There's a reason my favorite escort quest in DDO is the mage (Bensen?) in Detour. At least he covers himself if he's getting rekt lol, and on occasion he even throws some useful spells
    Detour is the only decent escort quest, pretty much any question that has a fail on npc death is just not fun imo.

    CoincidentallyI was wondering earlier; how come you can't resurrect npcs? Is there a lore or any reason for why players, pets and some enemies can but not any npcs?
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  9. #9
    FreeDeeOh PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpartanKiller13 View Post
    There's a reason my favorite escort quest in DDO is the mage (Bensen?) in Detour. At least he covers himself if he's getting rekt lol, and on occasion he even throws some useful spells
    If he spawns as a nasty champion like Soul of Cruelty he can even demolish most of the mobs for you, which is absolutely hilarious.

    MOST of the escort quests in the game have SOME way of doing them where you don't have to watch the NPC all the time, or the NPC is actually tough enough to survive decently well.

  10. #10
    FreeDeeOh PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUTANG75 View Post
    Detour is the only decent escort quest, pretty much any question that has a fail on npc death is just not fun imo.

    CoincidentallyI was wondering earlier; how come you can't resurrect npcs? Is there a lore or any reason for why players, pets and some enemies can but not any npcs?
    They don't have a soul stone, so their spirit goes straight to Dolurrh.

  11. #11
    Community Member TedSandyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    Nope, that's the Coyle escort quest. That one you do have to keep him with you because they do respawn. In Derward's quest they do not.
    Yeah, but if you don't clean out ALL the side tunnels, sometimes a mob will wander down and ruin Derwards day.

  12. #12
    Community Member Amorais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Yeah, but if you don't clean out ALL the side tunnels, sometimes a mob will wander down and ruin Derwards day.
    Thats what happened - invis Mephit.

    ofc Derwad instantly ran straight toward it. That quest series is now dead to me.

  13. #13
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUTANG75 View Post
    Detour is the only decent escort quest, pretty much any question that has a fail on npc death is just not fun imo.

    CoincidentallyI was wondering earlier; how come you can't resurrect npcs? Is there a lore or any reason for why players, pets and some enemies can but not any npcs?
    TBH I think it's game balance, otherwise optimal would be to let them die then you could do whatever (invisi-zerg?) and rez at the end.

    In a lot of PnP there's significantly more severe penalties for being rezzed (generally permanent level loss) so maybe it's that?

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    If he spawns as a nasty champion like Soul of Cruelty he can even demolish most of the mobs for you, which is absolutely hilarious.
    Time to run R10 Detour and just roll until he hits SoC. Just poke him every few mins to re-activate the rampage :P
    -Khysiria of Cannith
    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    The easiest way to do that dungeon is to run all the way to the bottom (killing everything on the way), and then NOT talk to Derward, just run back to the chest in his room. All the mobs spawn, so you can go clear your way back up to the entrance, THEN come down and get Derward and escort him in complete safety. It's longer, but it guarantees success.

    But, yes, Derward is one of the squishiest NPC's you have to escort in the game, and on Elite+ difficulty he will pretty much die in one hit.
    My method is similar.

    Clear to bottom. Loot chest in case things go pear-shaped. Check room then drag the dummy to a far corner from stairs, then park and invis. DDoor to start. Call hire if not already called. Set hire to suicidal, I mean, "active". Clear to bottom, checking all cul de sacs. At bottom, invis dummy again, put hire on 'defend' the dummy and run ahead (but not too far ahead) to top, always looking for missed mobs.

    OP, Threnal could use some love, and not just because it makes Dave Arneson's creativity look like something from a sadistic ash-hole.

  15. #15
    Community Member Dragavon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorais View Post
    I dont mind that he is squishy. What gets my goat is that he actively RUNS towards any enemies. Its pure spite by whoever designed the module and completely stupid/nonsensical.
    The question here is, why are there enemies left that he can run at? I have soloed this many times, never had any problems.

    Kill everything before talking to him, then there will not be any problems.

  16. #16
    Community Member Dragavon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedSandyman View Post
    Yeah, but if you don't clean out ALL the side tunnels, sometimes a mob will wander down and ruin Derwards day.
    There is only one side tunnel in that quest. I do not see what the problem is clearing it........

  17. #17
    Community Member Amorais's Avatar
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    Thought I had cleared it but I missed an invis mephit. My bad - I accept that. I don't accept the utter stupidity of an NPC then running directly at the mobs - effectively killing themselves for literally no reason.

    Its stupid AI and moulding a quest around stupid AI is compounding/highlighting the issue that your AI is deficient. Not only that but to have the stupid AI then be a failure trigger just underlines it even more.

  18. #18
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    I suppose they could just do a Coyle thing here.

    Make him become incapacitated instead of dying and make an optional objective to keep him from taking the incapacitating hit.

    But I would rather remove the quest fail in Prey on the Hunter because it is longer and more frustrating and makes more sense to remove because you can kill the dragon later (so why do we need to save it before killing it).

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorais View Post
    Thought I had cleared it but I missed an invis mephit. My bad - I accept that. I don't accept the utter stupidity of an NPC then running directly at the mobs - effectively killing themselves for literally no reason.

    Its stupid AI and moulding a quest around stupid AI is compounding/highlighting the issue that your AI is deficient. Not only that but to have the stupid AI then be a failure trigger just underlines it even more.
    It should be pointed out that this quest is almost as old as DDO itself. And at the time of its release, the Ruins of Threnal pretty much represented end-game content to challenge players. Consequently, his stupidity and squishiness were intended to add to the challenge of running the quest.

    That said, my dislike for Durwood is surpassed only be my distaste for Coyle.

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