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  1. #1
    Community Member Yokido's Avatar
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    Default Number of players - When is it low enough?

    Just as the title says, at what point will our population problem be bad enough to warrant direct action?

    There's a large number of potential fixes to choose from... Make grouping across level deserts easier, make TR'ing not so counter to raiding, merge the servers, or make dungeons cross server.

    The problem isn't just population, it's our lack of socializing as a result. We're playing an MMO with -nobody-. Worse yet, we're -paying- to play an MMO with -nobody-. Please give us a fix that hits closer to home, Devs.

  2. #2
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    There's a point described in the "TV TRopes" entring "Pandering to the base" :

    The producers may then start pandering to these voices exclusively, believing them to be the voice of everyone watching (which they will often claim to be) — but "everyone" in this case may in fact consist only of a handful of people, and what this minority wants and what the other, less noisy fans want can differ drastically.

    This presents a major problem. The property can end up becoming a private club, accessible only to a select few. Excluding the casual fans means they'll simply drift away to find something else to spend their time on, and raising the entry bar too high means you run the risk of locking out new fans who may have possibly been interested in the property, but now find it too difficult to access.

    The other important point is that DDO has a different graphics quality than those games prferred by ... as they sometoimes even call themselves so ... "graphics *****s". They want rather shiny, graphically impressive games with no real "soul" than the other way round.

    Personally, I believe that this could be used to attract new players : Being able to use actual SKILLS to disarm traps is not something found in a lot of RPGs, and especially not in MMORPGs.

    (This was one of the reasons why I became so tired of SWTOR : It looks graphically rather good, but has no real mechanics like trap skils.)

    In my opinion, people oriented towards details could very well be attracted to DDO.
    Or, the other possibility, to the rival "Neverwinter Online". My fear is that this rival attracts a lot of (A)D&D players.

    Me, however, I just love Eberron for what it is - so much different that the cliché of high fantasy ! Especially that the Drow can be rather normal citizens in Stormreach attracts me ! - I never liked that "darker & edgier" Elves" cliché of the underdark ...
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tapper this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this tale."
    English is not my first language - misinterpretations galore !

  3. #3
    Community Member Nebless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yokido View Post
    at what point will our population problem be bad enough to warrant direct action?
    How do you even know what the current game population is? Short of logging onto all servers every hour on the hour and doing a manual count, I don't know of any source where we can find out what the numbers even are.

    I will agree that atleast on Khyber while I see others pretty much all the time, I rarely see anyone in chat, which is totally the opposite of any other game I play.
    Aias Iceforge. Barbarian Ice Dwarf - Khyber

  4. #4
    Sovereign Vorpal Halfling of Supreme Good scipiojedi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yokido View Post

    The problem isn't just population, it's our lack of socializing as a result. We're playing an MMO with -nobody-. Worse yet, we're -paying- to play an MMO with -nobody-. Please give us a fix that hits closer to home, Devs.
    I'm playing with people. I wouldn't play if I couldn't, but I PUG all the time and raid within an alliance of several small guilds. Once there are no LFMs up for any of my 18 alts to play with, that's the day I quit DDO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Working for free makes it very difficult to spend money on swords.
    Khyber: Jobus (Shirardi), JaguarPaw (xbow user), Ungriem (tank), Helvetii (DaggerForged), Jobox (AA), Yaddle (DC Monk), Jobberwocky, Jobusz , Vrykolakes, Caeruleum, Brattypoppy, Taurielle (Bard AA), Romuluse, Glorfindela, Gwathali (Assassin), Rachaela

  5. #5
    Community Member SpartanKiller13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebless View Post
    I will agree that atleast on Khyber while I see others pretty much all the time, I rarely see anyone in chat, which is totally the opposite of any other game I play.
    I'd say that's because there's no global chat. Which is good because no gold spammers etc, but bad because no global chat lol.
    -Khysiria of Cannith
    Quote Originally Posted by zehnvhex View Post
    Warlock is basically a ghetto Shiradi Sorc. You gives up some of the damage and self sustain for the ability to just hold down left click and yolo blast your way to victory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    It's DDO. There are probably 6 different types of Evil damage.

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    I dunno, i don't have these problems. But I play on a large server, maybe its your server? Try a transfer perhaps.
    Triple All

    Ghallanda forever.

  7. #7
    Community Member Yokido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebless View Post
    How do you even know what the current game population is? Short of logging onto all servers every hour on the hour and doing a manual count, I don't know of any source where we can find out what the numbers even are.

    I will agree that atleast on Khyber while I see others pretty much all the time, I rarely see anyone in chat, which is totally the opposite of any other game I play.
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ers-pop-counts

    Someone is already putting together something like this, and the results are dismal.

    @Vorachtin

    Please read the above forum link, as there's an in-depth conversation about why transferring isn't even a fix. The issue is you -pay- to transfer, but even if you go to the server of highest population that can be changed at any time by having the default server changed.

  8. #8
    Community Member Nebless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yokido View Post
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ers-pop-counts

    Someone is already putting together something like this, and the results are dismal.
    I was looking at that before coming here. While the numbers aren't good, all he's doing is various snap shot's on the servers. Do we even know if those times he's doing are the prime times for those servers?

    Like I said each server every hour on the hour. While I doubt the numbers will be anything impressive, a chart like I'm talking about would point players at those servers that are most filled during their normal play times. Then allow free transfer's for a week to re-distribute the pop.

    No it's not really going to help, players will still need to post and join LFM's, but it won't freak out the servers like a merge would either.
    Aias Iceforge. Barbarian Ice Dwarf - Khyber

  9. #9
    Founder Potvin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yokido View Post
    Just as the title says, at what point will our population problem be bad enough to warrant direct action?

    There's a large number of potential fixes to choose from... Make grouping across level deserts easier, make TR'ing not so counter to raiding, merge the servers, or make dungeons cross server.

    The problem isn't just population, it's our lack of socializing as a result. We're playing an MMO with -nobody-. Worse yet, we're -paying- to play an MMO with -nobody-. Please give us a fix that hits closer to home, Devs.

    Let me give you guys the perspective of a new player. I played on Fernia at release in 2006. I left sometime in 2007.
    I came back as a VIP 3 weeks ago, I have a level 8 rogue on Ghallanda now.

    I look at the long term meta of this game. Players who have been playing for years and years. Dozens of TRs/past lives. Doing end game content. I look at my casual gaming time I have, zero TRs. I ask myself - how long will it take me to get anywhere NEAR what existing raiders are doing? Years.

    Then I look at the ridiculousness of SSG and potentially buying every single DLC they've released. "Because they are good".
    Yeah, maybe they are. However, DLCs these days seldom cost 40 dollars each, and sure as hell not old ones.

    It really sucks, because I really, really enjoy the combat style of this game. However between the massive power creep that exists, and the constant fleecing and nickle and diming SSG does with this game...I am once again basically at a point where I can't justify investing any more money in it then I have to. I don't see a future where I'm doing things that are fun.

    I'm fighting a lost cause trying to do anything meaningful in this game, at all. In 6 months I MIGHT get to 30. Once. I'm in a very good and friendly guild on Ghallanda, and that helps with the leveling process for sure...but still, we're not talking someone who can play 30-40 hours a week. I'm playing 8-12. Maybe more in the winter.

    I don't have any good answers, it just seems like there's no future for me here, and as combined with the DDO policy on DLCs, makes me want to just quit again for good.
    Last edited by Potvin; 07-15-2019 at 11:24 PM.
    Stabbius Maximus, halfling rogue returning after like 12 years.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Potvin View Post
    Let me give you guys the perspective of a new player. I played on Fernia at release in 2006. I left sometime in 2007.
    I came back as a VIP 3 weeks ago, I have a level 8 rogue on Ghallanda now.

    I look at the long term meta of this game. Players who have been playing for years and years. Dozens of TRs/past lives. Doing end game content. I look at my casual gaming time I have, zero TRs. I ask myself - how long will it take me to get anywhere NEAR what existing raiders are doing? months, years.

    Then I look at the ridiculousness of SSG and potentially buying every single DLC they've released. "Because they are good".
    Yeah, maybe they are. However, DLCs these days seldom cost 40 dollars each, and sure as hell not old ones.

    It really sucks, because I really, really enjoy the combat style of this game. However between the massive power creep that exists, and the constant fleecing and nickle and diming SSG does with this game...I am once again basically at a point where I can't invest any more money in it then I have to.

    I'm fighting a lost cause trying to do anything meaningful in this game, at all.

    Sucks.
    Oddly it is not always so bad. I have a second life Alt and she is holding up well; 5 reaper points etc. My main has 18 reaper points, maybe 8 PLs although is an epic completionist and is at best 'average' in these terms. I just play what I like and do not pursue personal power; suddenly everything gets relaxed and fun. I just try not to make a fool of myself in quests so if it is too much I play a support role and try to stay alive.
    Wiki dashboard with some useful stealthplay links
    Proud Knight of the Silver Legion, Cannith: Saekee (main; epic completionist), Naerfelka (farmer), Saelegion (parked at level 4!)


  11. #11
    Founder Potvin's Avatar
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    I mean, I don't pretend to understand end game at all. I've been talking to people both in my guild and on discord. I'm trying to understand as I am buying and spending DDO points...I just don't want to spend 100+ dollars on expansions when I'm already a subscriber. TESO included older expansions in your subscriptions. Not the newest one of course. That's understandable.

    I quit in 2007 because I couldn't find groups. Right now, with a cleric hireling I can handle 'hard' content, but not elite. Part of it is improving my playing style, but it's hard those clerics don't hold aggro as well as fighters (but they heal a lot better!)

    Part of the problem is the monetization of F2P games. I'm (like most of you) an older gamer and I am a big fan of the subscription model. Throw some non-game altering clothes or whatever for money, that's fine. I bought an outfit for my rogue already.

    edit: I'm not trying to be negative here, this is just my honest perspective right now.
    Last edited by Potvin; 07-15-2019 at 11:32 PM.
    Stabbius Maximus, halfling rogue returning after like 12 years.

  12. #12
    Community Member Yokido's Avatar
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    @Nebless

    Servers may have "prime times", but is it just to tell all night-shift workers "Hey, you just have to play during prime time." when that "prime time" happens to be when they're sleeping for work? When there's a fix other than telling someone to get a new job?

    Further on the conversation of servers... When servers have -overly- high populations, as we've seen in the past (particularly with events like Mabar or CC), then the lag can get egregious and extremely non-conducive to enjoyable play.

    So (for example) if the servers are "suitable" for 200 players actively playing, but the peak is at 300 for a particular few hours, why play at the peak if everything you can now fill wipes?

    Hey, we filled an LE Shroud with perfect players for it, but, oh no, the lag monster, we're not high enough level to face it! *wipe* Can we reduce the difficulty to LH and run with the 9 players who stayed? Let's try! No, lag monster, you weren't invited, get out of here! *wipe* Ok, ok guys. We can surely do it on LN with the 6 of us, it's only Shroud after all, we'll make sure to pick a good instance. Lag monster, you fiend, one day I will get a lag-beater, and you will rue the day! *wipe*

    The issue I'm getting at is that even when the servers have warm bodies we can run into a different issue, where things fill quickly, but the servers can't keep up. One of the suggested fixes would also give our servers more of a capacity to handle high populations, and that was to make quest/raid/LFMs cross-server. That way, the server of least traffic could get the overflow.

    @Potvin

    Perhaps you're right. Perhaps the population issue could be addressed by making out-dated expansions accessible for VIPs, thus retaining more new players. I can get behind a change like that.

    As I've said, I'm not keen on limiting what options the devs have at trying to fix this issue, I just care that they do, and that it has some effect.

    @Saekee

    Thank-you for your input, I too do something similar. If it's too intense for me, I just sit back and heal/buff/cc if possible.
    Last edited by Yokido; 07-16-2019 at 12:06 AM.

  13. #13
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potvin View Post
    Let me give you guys the perspective of a new player. I played on Fernia at release in 2006. I left sometime in 2007.
    I came back as a VIP 3 weeks ago, I have a level 8 rogue on Ghallanda now.

    I look at the long term meta of this game. Players who have been playing for years and years. Dozens of TRs/past lives. Doing end game content. I look at my casual gaming time I have, zero TRs. I ask myself - how long will it take me to get anywhere NEAR what existing raiders are doing? Years.

    Then I look at the ridiculousness of SSG and potentially buying every single DLC they've released. "Because they are good".
    Yeah, maybe they are. However, DLCs these days seldom cost 40 dollars each, and sure as hell not old ones.

    It really sucks, because I really, really enjoy the combat style of this game. However between the massive power creep that exists, and the constant fleecing and nickle and diming SSG does with this game...I am once again basically at a point where I can't justify investing any more money in it then I have to. I don't see a future where I'm doing things that are fun.

    I'm fighting a lost cause trying to do anything meaningful in this game, at all. In 6 months I MIGHT get to 30. Once. I'm in a very good and friendly guild on Ghallanda, and that helps with the leveling process for sure...but still, we're not talking someone who can play 30-40 hours a week. I'm playing 8-12. Maybe more in the winter.

    I don't have any good answers, it just seems like there's no future for me here, and as combined with the DDO policy on DLCs, makes me want to just quit again for good.
    I adressed this several times.
    Some of the responces i got from players ranged from;
    Put in the same work we did, to, you don't need past lives/other power creep, just do a lower difficulty.
    Well, ok, i'll bite, let's assume a first life player gets a team of first lifers together to raid (everybody being lv 30).
    Wich raids do they have a decent chance in?

    Because to me, loooking from the outside; it seems like even the normal settings to most raids aren't designed around first lifers.
    How are they seeing the content they paid for? A youtube video?


    Anyways, OP, i hope the dev team wakes up.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    I play a guy with a two-hander not just in this game, but in every game that has 'em.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-mann View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but then can you make 2hf NOT suck so much compared to 2wf or swf?
    Quote Originally Posted by FlimsyFirewood View Post
    8 pages in, that train has already sailed. The dead horse is canned into cat food by now.

  14. #14
    Founder Potvin's Avatar
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    See, I can understand the mindset behind the 'put in similar work' counter-argument.
    However, that's going to cause newer players to give up on your game.

    I don't honestly have a good answer. I would say that, at least for me, the #1 reason I may stop playing down the line is this pay model with the DLCs. This entire that I would have to pay 40 bucks for an expansion , and not even get the tree? These clowns think I'm spending 80 bucks to get a couple of collectibles, a tree, and a free month of VIP? Anyone who can do basic math will see it's not even remotely worth it.

    SSG (I won't blame 'the devs', they just code the game) look to bleed people out at almost any reasonable opportunity. It's just too bad.
    Stabbius Maximus, halfling rogue returning after like 12 years.

  15. #15
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebless View Post
    How do you even know what the current game population is? Short of logging onto all servers every hour on the hour and doing a manual count, I don't know of any source where we can find out what the numbers even are.

    I will agree that atleast on Khyber while I see others pretty much all the time, I rarely see anyone in chat, which is totally the opposite of any other game I play.
    Whenever I log in, I take a glance at the Who list and see how many players are on. It's a lot less than it was 5 years ago.

    WAAAAAAAAAAAAYYY less.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  16. #16
    Community Member Nebless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potvin View Post
    Let me give you guys the perspective of a new player. I played on Fernia at release in 2006. I left sometime in 2007.
    I came back as a VIP 3 weeks ago, I have a level 8 rogue on Ghallanda now.

    I look at the long term meta of this game. Players who have been playing for years and years. Dozens of TRs/past lives. Doing end game content. I look at my casual gaming time I have, zero TRs. I ask myself - how long will it take me to get anywhere NEAR what existing raiders are doing? Years.
    Why does it even matter what / where the other players are in the game? Are you in some kind of competition with them? I've been playing since 2009 and my highest character is only lvl 15. I'm playing for my enjoyment and if I go slow so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Potvin View Post
    Then I look at the ridiculousness of SSG and potentially buying every single DLC they've released. "Because they are good".
    Yeah, maybe they are. However, DLCs these days seldom cost 40 dollars each, and sure as hell not old ones.

    It really sucks, because I really, really enjoy the combat style of this game. However between the massive power creep that exists, and the constant fleecing and nickle and diming SSG does with this game...I am once again basically at a point where I can't justify investing any more money in it then I have to. I don't see a future where I'm doing things that are fun.
    Why do you have to buy them? Because they're good? To who? I've picked up 4 adventure packs over the years and finally bought my first DLC Ravenloft last year. I'd don't do the good / bad thing, I pick up stuff that I think will be fun to play. Because that's what I want to do, have fun playing a game. I'm not going to pick something up just because someone wrote a thread saying it's required if you want to mega play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Potvin View Post
    I'm fighting a lost cause trying to do anything meaningful in this game, at all. In 6 months I MIGHT get to 30. Once. I'm in a very good and friendly guild on Ghallanda, and that helps with the leveling process for sure...but still, we're not talking someone who can play 30-40 hours a week. I'm playing 8-12. Maybe more in the winter.

    I don't have any good answers, it just seems like there's no future for me here, and as combined with the DDO policy on DLCs, makes me want to just quit again for good.
    It really sounds like you're trying to play the game for others, play it for yourself, for your own enjoyment. Who cares how slow you go, as it is your weekly play amount is about 4 times what mine is.
    Last edited by Nebless; 07-16-2019 at 10:28 AM.
    Aias Iceforge. Barbarian Ice Dwarf - Khyber

  17. #17
    Community Member Nebless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yokido View Post
    @Nebless
    Servers may have "prime times", but is it just to tell all night-shift workers "Hey, you just have to play during prime time." when that "prime time" happens to be when they're sleeping for work? When there's a fix other than telling someone to get a new job?

    Further on the conversation of servers... When servers have -overly- high populations, as we've seen in the past (particularly with events like Mabar or CC), then the lag can get egregious and extremely non-conducive to enjoyable play.
    The one recommendation that most of us give new players is to create a character on each server and check out the pop during their normal play time so those shift workers DON'T end up on out of sync servers.

    Without either SSG posting the prime hours of servers or doing as other game's have done and said 'this server is a West Coast one, 'this East, this Oceanic' etc... creating on each server is pretty much your only choice to find one that fit's your hours.

    The 'FIX' is as I stated, allow free transfer's. If you want to shift to a server that has play times more compatible to your hours, then do so. AND if you don't want to be near the prime time hours because just as you say - LAG, then you can shift to a server that won't cause you problems.
    Last edited by Nebless; 07-16-2019 at 10:31 AM.
    Aias Iceforge. Barbarian Ice Dwarf - Khyber

  18. #18
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebless View Post
    It really sounds like you're trying to play the game for others, play it for yourself, for your own enjoyment. Who cares how slow you go, as it is your weekly play amount is about 4 times what mine is.
    I've been playing since 2009 and my highest character is only lvl 15.
    He doesn't have fun the same way you do. Is that weird to you? Given that you have never crossed level 15 in 10 years of gameplay, I'd say that statistically speaking you are the extreme oddity, and certainly wouldn't take you as any sort of example on how to make pricing or other gameplay decisions.

    I also find the price of old packs / expansions stupidly high, and I do not think it is the result of a very meditated marketing decisions.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potvin View Post
    Let me give you guys the perspective of a new player. I played on Fernia at release in 2006. I left sometime in 2007.
    I came back as a VIP 3 weeks ago, I have a level 8 rogue on Ghallanda now.

    I look at the long term meta of this game. Players who have been playing for years and years. Dozens of TRs/past lives. Doing end game content. I look at my casual gaming time I have, zero TRs. I ask myself - how long will it take me to get anywhere NEAR what existing raiders are doing? Years.

    Then I look at the ridiculousness of SSG and potentially buying every single DLC they've released. "Because they are good".
    Yeah, maybe they are. However, DLCs these days seldom cost 40 dollars each, and sure as hell not old ones.

    It really sucks, because I really, really enjoy the combat style of this game. However between the massive power creep that exists, and the constant fleecing and nickle and diming SSG does with this game...I am once again basically at a point where I can't justify investing any more money in it then I have to. I don't see a future where I'm doing things that are fun.

    I'm fighting a lost cause trying to do anything meaningful in this game, at all. In 6 months I MIGHT get to 30. Once. I'm in a very good and friendly guild on Ghallanda, and that helps with the leveling process for sure...but still, we're not talking someone who can play 30-40 hours a week. I'm playing 8-12. Maybe more in the winter.

    I don't have any good answers, it just seems like there's no future for me here, and as combined with the DDO policy on DLCs, makes me want to just quit again for good.

    It doesn't really seem like you're sticking around anyway. If I had a girlfriend TWELVE years ago that bailed, and then we dated for 3 weeks and she said it doesn't seem like it's working out - I wouldn't be sending out wedding invites.

    If you're not having fun *now* - I'm not sure you ever will. I still enjoy korthos on completely new toons. The "meaningfulness" should be having fun. It doesn't sound like you are.

    I definitely agree pricing across the board should be ... more sane, in terms of cost and loot drop rates, older stuff should be trivial at this point.


    Only other piece of advice - don't play a rogue? Can't think of a more unfriendly new class.

  20. #20
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    The problem is that people here talk about Reaper and about End Gear and about nothing else. This forum is a window - and people looking in from the outside feel after reading this that they are merely trash when they have low-level one-lifers.

    Talk by long-term players marginalized new players.
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tapper this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this dale."
    "Archbishop Dryden wants to talk to you to tap on this tale."
    English is not my first language - misinterpretations galore !

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