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  1. #1
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Default Crazy DC requirements

    So, i'm about 3 lives from completionist. Just capped my bard life and as usual I gear up with the best non raid gear available just to see the class potential. Charisma is well represented in RL gear. I tried a tiefling life and went mainly swash/warchanter with enough spellsinger to get inspiration melody.

    I like bards. i played one once before with the same disappointments at cap. Except for fascinate none of his DC's as a swash/LD ED can be made high enough for no fail elite 34 quests. Hell, i can't even get a dancing ball to hold one creature on LE. No CC works at level 34. Low blow, trip, freeze, sonics, w/e. I've got a 78 charisma with all the insightful bonuses on my CC gear and it's still not enough.
    On level 33 he's a beast. one level higher and he's a wannabe dodge fighter with no dependable CC whatsoever.

    I could break down my gear set but there's no reason to do so. i'm satisfied that I did the best I could which is considerable.
    Because of that I'm pretty sure bard won't be my final build.

    PS:
    beyond heroics I really could not find any synergy with bard and tiefling other than a 20 starting charisma. The racial enhancements are weak and weaker. I don't know why the devs think chump change fire damage is so awesome.
    Last edited by krimsonrane; 07-11-2019 at 02:02 PM.
    Sometimes I pull one out just to watch it die over and over. That's how much I hate hires.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    So, i'm about 3 lives from completionist. Just capped my bard life and as usual I gear up with the best non raid gear available just to see the class potential. Charisma is well represented in RL gear. I tried a tiefling life and went mainly swash/warchanter with enough spellsinger to get inspiration melody.

    I like bards. i played one once before with the same disappointments at cap. Except for fascinate none of his DC's as a swash/LD ED can be made high enough for no fail elite 34 quests. Hell, i can't even get a dancing ball to hold one creature on LE. No CC works at level 34. Low blow, trip, freeze, sonics, w/e. I've got a 78 charisma with all the insightful bonuses on my CC gear and it's still not enough.
    On level 33 he's a beast. one level higher and he's a wannabe dodge fighter with no CC whatsoever.

    I could break down my gear set but there's no reason to do so. i'm satisfied that I did the best I could which is considerable.
    Because of that I'm pretty sure bard won't be my final build.

    PS:
    beyond heroics I really could not find any synergy with bard and tiefling other than a 20 starting charisma. The racial enhancements are weak and weaker. I don't know why the devs think chump change fire damage is so awesome.
    I am running a fire-specced Tiefling sorc at the moment and it still isn't worth dipping into the Tielfing tree.

  3. #3
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaeveTuohy View Post
    I am running a fire-specced Tiefling sorc at the moment and it still isn't worth dipping into the Tielfing tree.
    IKR!

    A friend of mine plays a sorc and said the same. it's a useless tree. Which means the only reason to run tieflings are if you like horns. The best they could probably do is add a little fire damage to a 2hw fighter build. Even then you're better off going bladeforged.
    Sometimes I pull one out just to watch it die over and over. That's how much I hate hires.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    So, i'm about 3 lives from completionist. Just capped my bard life and as usual I gear up with the best non raid gear available just to see the class potential. Charisma is well represented in RL gear. I tried a tiefling life and went mainly swash/warchanter with enough spellsinger to get inspiration melody.

    I like bards. i played one once before with the same disappointments at cap. Except for fascinate none of his DC's as a swash/LD ED can be made high enough for no fail elite 34 quests. Hell, i can't even get a dancing ball to hold one creature on LE. No CC works at level 34. Low blow, trip, freeze, sonics, w/e. I've got a 78 charisma with all the insightful bonuses on my CC gear and it's still not enough.
    On level 33 he's a beast. one level higher and he's a wannabe dodge fighter with no dependable CC whatsoever.

    I could break down my gear set but there's no reason to do so. i'm satisfied that I did the best I could which is considerable.
    Because of that I'm pretty sure bard won't be my final build.

    PS:
    beyond heroics I really could not find any synergy with bard and tiefling other than a 20 starting charisma. The racial enhancements are weak and weaker. I don't know why the devs think chump change fire damage is so awesome.

    Probably u are doing something wrong... Bards are doing very well after sharn.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Eryhn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    78 charisma
    havent played a capped bard in a while but your issue lies right here and maybe elsewhere too...

    for comparison:

    Charisma
    Start: 20
    Level Ups: 7
    Tome: 8
    Enhancement Bonus: 17
    Insightful Bonus: 9
    Exceptional Bonus: 1
    Quality Bonus: 4
    Profane Bonus: 2
    Artifact Bonus: 2
    Completionist: 2
    Racial Completionist: 2
    Racial Past Lifes: 2
    Angelic Presence 2
    Sentient Weapon Filigree: 5
    Reaper Bonus on Helm: 2
    Racial Enhancements: 2
    Aov Enhancements: 2
    AoV Capstone: 4
    Beacon of Hope Enhancements: 1
    Falconry Enhancements: 1
    Reaper: 5
    Epic Destiny: 6
    Ship Buffs: 2
    Yugo Potions: 2
    Remnant Potions: 2
    Total Charisma: 112
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6118253

    yeah that's from a fvs. yeah that's with like all the bling. but main stat building is pretty generic accross classes, even if you subtract out a bunch of stuff like max tome/reaper/remnant/racial hitting high 80s or maybe low 90s ain't that hard anymore nowadays?

    did you take enchant/evoc feats/twists and use spellfocus items and stacking spellfocus items?
    quality stat and quality dc?

    trip is STR and combat mastery/vertigo based btw ...

    low blow and coup de grace benefit of perform/ins perform/stacking cha skill items ...

    posting your actual individual DCs and stat/DC relevant gear might help to zero in on areas you could improved with gear and or enhancements/feat adjustments ...


    I dont think it is wrong per default that on a possibly a bit randomly geared swash build you dont hit elite at cap spell dcs automatically - at the same time pretty sure this can be fixed for elite with some tinkering
    Last edited by Eryhn; 07-11-2019 at 02:52 PM.

  6. #6
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    Seems confused. LD Swashie throwing balls. Doesn't seem like a good synergy.

    You need a boost to your ice DC from either KTA or DP.

    These numbers should be strong enough to get you most mobs. A ~ 116 ice DC lands on everything other than goblins - they can save often. Tested up to R10 out of Sharn. Up to R8 Sharn. There's heaps of room for improvement above that mark. Dire charge and low blow/coup are 100%..

    See casters landing their spells too, so it is possible from that side, and bards are capable of high spell DCs, probably not at the same time as melee though.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    So, i'm about 3 lives from completionist. Just capped my bard life and as usual I gear up with the best non raid gear available just to see the class potential. Charisma is well represented in RL gear. I tried a tiefling life and went mainly swash/warchanter with enough spellsinger to get inspiration melody.

    I like bards. i played one once before with the same disappointments at cap. Except for fascinate none of his DC's as a swash/LD ED can be made high enough for no fail elite 34 quests. Hell, i can't even get a dancing ball to hold one creature on LE. No CC works at level 34. Low blow, trip, freeze, sonics, w/e. I've got a 78 charisma with all the insightful bonuses on my CC gear and it's still not enough.
    On level 33 he's a beast. one level higher and he's a wannabe dodge fighter with no dependable CC whatsoever.

    I could break down my gear set but there's no reason to do so. i'm satisfied that I did the best I could which is considerable.
    Because of that I'm pretty sure bard won't be my final build.

    PS:
    beyond heroics I really could not find any synergy with bard and tiefling other than a 20 starting charisma. The racial enhancements are weak and weaker. I don't know why the devs think chump change fire damage is so awesome.
    If you only have 78 charisma then you clearly do not have "best non raid gear" in terms of DC casting. of course you're not going to land CC spells on a melee build with nearly zero investment.

    90+ cha on a caster is bare minimum for cha based DC casting, probably need more since you likely aren't fully speced with enchant DC bonuses since you're a melee build.

    Either post your gear list or your claims will be ignored.

  8. #8
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eryhn View Post
    havent played a capped bard in a while but your issue lies right here and maybe elsewhere too...

    for comparison:



    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6118253

    yeah that's from a fvs. yeah that's with like all the bling. but main stat building is pretty generic accross classes, even if you subtract out a bunch of stuff like max tome/reaper/remnant/racial hitting high 80s or maybe low 90s ain't that hard anymore nowadays?

    did you take enchant/evoc feats/twists and use spellfocus items and stacking spellfocus items?
    quality stat and quality dc?

    trip is STR and combat mastery/vertigo based btw ...

    low blow and coup de grace benefit of perform/ins perform/stacking cha skill items ...

    posting your actual individual DCs and stat/DC relevant gear might help to zero in on areas you could improved with gear and or enhancements/feat adjustments ...


    I dont think it is wrong per default that on a possibly a bit randomly geared swash build you dont hit elite at cap spell dcs automatically - at the same time pretty sure this can be fixed for elite with some tinkering
    No. I'm shy 3 points to my dc. I took the single weapon fighting line. It was well worth it. At least in level 33 quests. I specifically wanted a LD SWF bard with CC capabilities. But apparently it's an all or nothing equation.
    Sometimes I pull one out just to watch it die over and over. That's how much I hate hires.

  9. #9
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlavoredSoul View Post
    If you only have 78 charisma then you clearly do not have "best non raid gear" in terms of DC casting. of course you're not going to land CC spells on a melee build with nearly zero investment.

    90+ cha on a caster is bare minimum for cha based DC casting, probably need more since you likely aren't fully speced with enchant DC bonuses since you're a melee build.

    Either post your gear list or your claims will be ignored.
    What non raid bard gear (not augments) will get you a higher charisma than Legendary Gauntlets of Innate Arcanum and Legendary Softsole Slippers? I'll wait.

    I'm only missing two things. 3 points of dc in feats and a +8 charisma tome. I have +6

    zero investment? please.

    "Either post your gear list or your claims will be ignored."
    How about I just ignore you.
    Last edited by krimsonrane; 07-11-2019 at 03:32 PM.
    Sometimes I pull one out just to watch it die over and over. That's how much I hate hires.

  10. #10
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoBoDaClown View Post
    Seems confused. LD Swashie throwing balls. Doesn't seem like a good synergy.

    You need a boost to your ice DC from either KTA or DP.

    These numbers should be strong enough to get you most mobs. A ~ 116 ice DC lands on everything other than goblins - they can save often. Tested up to R10 out of Sharn. Up to R8 Sharn. There's heaps of room for improvement above that mark. Dire charge and low blow/coup are 100%..

    See casters landing their spells too, so it is possible from that side, and bards are capable of high spell DCs, probably not at the same time as melee though.
    Swash/LD ball thrower was the plan. As i've stated the plan didn't work at level 34.
    I'll play it as is for a week or two and then move on to the next life.

    116 DFC? good lord. Like i said. crazy DC requirements.
    Sometimes I pull one out just to watch it die over and over. That's how much I hate hires.

  11. #11
    Community Member Dragavon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    I've got a 78 charisma with all the insightful bonuses on my CC gear and it's still not enough.
    My tiefling bard with no raid gear has 102 cha, higher in reaper, and does well enough.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoBoDaClown View Post
    Seems confused. LD Swashie throwing balls. Doesn't seem like a good synergy.

    You need a boost to your ice DC from either KTA or DP.

    These numbers should be strong enough to get you most mobs. A ~ 116 ice DC lands on everything other than goblins - they can save often. Tested up to R10 out of Sharn. Up to R8 Sharn. There's heaps of room for improvement above that mark. Dire charge and low blow/coup are 100%..

    See casters landing their spells too, so it is possible from that side, and bards are capable of high spell DCs, probably not at the same time as melee though.
    I think the problem here is expecting to play a hybrid, such as that old count of monte build, when DDO has stopped supporting these kind of builds.

    Back in 2013-2014-2015, we saw a whole bunch of BYOH successful hybrid builds. Bards that could cast balls and melee, Shoikan FVS melee casting hybrids, arties combining spell and martial DPS.

    Fast forward to 2019 and, with reaper, it is the time of massive specialization.

    I understand the disapointment, but OP just embrace the new mentality or drop to lower difficulties. There isn't a real alternative.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    Swash/LD ball thrower was the plan. As i've stated the plan didn't work at level 34.
    I'll play it as is for a week or two and then move on to the next life.

    116 DFC? good lord. Like i said. crazy DC requirements.
    I assure you its not very hard to hit a DC of 110-120 and CHA of 100-110 if you try. Look at set bonuses, maximize your enhancements and ED twists, there is festive and exceptional augments, Yugo pots, remnant pots, buffs, fillagrees for weapons and minor artifacts, etc. If you want to have a reliable DC, you must maximize from every resource possible.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I think the problem here is expecting to play a hybrid, such as that old count of monte build, when DDO has stopped supporting these kind of builds.

    Back in 2013-2014-2015, we saw a whole bunch of BYOH successful hybrid builds. Bards that could cast balls and melee, Shoikan FVS melee casting hybrids, arties combining spell and martial DPS.

    Fast forward to 2019 and, with reaper, it is the time of massive specialization.

    I understand the disapointment, but OP just embrace the new mentality or drop to lower difficulties. There isn't a real alternative.
    I'm having a ton of fun with an Int-max DG Silvanus maul build? I'm sure with more PL's/gear etc it'd be even better than mine is, but I've had no-fail DC's with Color Spray from 15-20 so far in low Reaper (including Sharn). I'm sure 20-28 will be slower (since I basically don't have low-mid epic gear), but 29+ I'd expect to pick back up again?

    I feel like I finally understand Tilomere about how bringing your own CC on a melee is nuts.

    ------

    Towards the OP, I think your issue is your relatively low stat and probably DC bonuses. 70+ in a stat is quite doable on a first life toon, it's not going to cut it for endgame. Your toon that's nearly completionist (and probably has tomes, sentients etc) should be a bit higher IMO.
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  15. #15
    Community Member SerPounce's Avatar
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    You have to go more or less "all in" to make spell DCs work. That doesn't mean you need literally every bonus that it's possible to get, but you do have to make spell DCs your #1 priority. It's very difficult to make a build that does both good martial (melee/ranged weapons) DPS and has good spell DCs because they both require significant investments. Tactics are typically a much easier path for DPS builds to get some CC as the DCs can be viable with less investment.

    [edit] This applies primarily to cap play (legendary). It's much easier to get spell DCs to work leveling.
    Last edited by SerPounce; 07-11-2019 at 04:43 PM.
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    There I was, thinking 30 was high...

    You guys are in a totally different league

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I think the problem here is expecting to play a hybrid, such as that old count of monte build, when DDO has stopped supporting these kind of builds.
    no it is not the problem. depending on build hybrid still works fine, maybe a bit tougher in sharn elite but for all other elite content with the gear inflation and some care in enhances it can be achieved relatively easily even without raid gear, reaper helmets, racial stat points and other high investment bling.

    slapping on one +19 and one ins +9 and thinking that's it doesn't cut it though and that's fine as is.

    sacrificing one feat for enchant focus and twisting in an extra +3 alone would help with balls.
    puzzling in enchant ins enchant higher than C crafted would too, as would some quality and profane bonuses in general.

    admittedly OP is double gimped as LD offers no main stat and as of now fatesinger sucks, this will improve with the ED pass by and large and I guess serves as a point why in general that will be a good thing. (while its broken in various ways atm, he *could* get CHA and crit bonus in crusader, too though ...)


    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    116 DFC? good lord. Like i said. crazy DC requirements.
    he said 116 works for r8-10 not is required for elite. did you want pointers to make it work or just rant?


    anyways, many folks chimed in on various not too tedious options available ...

    *shrug* I'm outa here...
    Last edited by Eryhn; 07-11-2019 at 05:02 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    You have to go more or less "all in" to make spell DCs work.
    For high-skulls, sure. But for Elite? Shouldn't DC requirements be, what, about 15 points lower? But of course, OP didn't actually tell us what his DCs are. I'm betting he's not even in the 90s, which I suspect would be reachable on a hybrid Bard build.

    Does OP have an Equipment DC bonus? Insightful DC? Profane? Embolden feat? Legendary Feat for +4? School Specialist twist for +3? DC-boosting filigree sets? He's already cut severely into his spell DCs by running in LD. Of course he can't skip tons of stuff and still get Elite-workable DCs. If you dump spellcasting DCs, your spellcasting DCs shouldn't work in Elite.

    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    It's very difficult to make a build that does both good martial (melee/ranged weapons) DPS and has good spell DCs because they both require significant investments.
    How good is good, and for what content/difficulty? OP said Elite, didn't tell us which content or mobs. Or how happy he is or isn't with his DPS, for that matter.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 07-11-2019 at 05:26 PM.
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  19. #19
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    Having a casting stat that would've been acceptable pre ravenloft was new, having no DC support from epic destinies and not even being a primary caster spec enhancement wise is not going to get you usable DCs in endgame content. Just a +19 cha and +9 insightful cha item are not enough to hit endgame elite DCs, you need quality, profane Cha, enchantment/insightful/artifact/quality enchant DCs at the very least, you should also get some more DCs/Cha from filigree & caster sharn set bonus.

    I doubt you even have any enchant DC gear on, maybe a +7 or 8 enhancement bonus and maybe a insightful item at most, together with you extremely low cha it's a wonder why you'd expect your CC to hit anything at all.

    Please tell us your discoball DCs, I doubt it's even over 90.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    I specifically wanted a LD SWF bard with CC capabilities. But apparently it's an all or nothing equation.
    You can. Look at the synergies within the trees. Warchanter offers melee CC, so get your two melee trees working together.


    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    Swash/LD ball thrower was the plan. As i've stated the plan didn't work at level 34.
    I'll play it as is for a week or two and then move on to the next life.

    116 DFC? good lord. Like i said. crazy DC requirements.
    Not really. It's just a number. A number that is missing a lot of bonuses, so should be somewhat within reach, and that lands on R8+, so on Elite ~100 should work. However, you do need to invest in these numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I think the problem here is expecting to play a hybrid, such as that old count of monte build, when DDO has stopped supporting these kind of builds.

    Back in 2013-2014-2015, we saw a whole bunch of BYOH successful hybrid builds. Bards that could cast balls and melee, Shoikan FVS melee casting hybrids, arties combining spell and martial DPS.

    Fast forward to 2019 and, with reaper, it is the time of massive specialization.

    I understand the disapointment, but OP just embrace the new mentality or drop to lower difficulties. There isn't a real alternative.
    I think (from a Bard perspective), caster hybrids were always somewhat difficult; however, the game used to be so easy it was quite forgiving.
    Last edited by BoBoDaClown; 07-11-2019 at 09:35 PM.
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