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  1. #21
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragavon View Post
    My tiefling bard with no raid gear has 102 cha, higher in reaper, and does well enough.
    102 charisma. I have no idea how that is even possible.
    Sometimes I pull one out just to watch it die over and over. That's how much I hate hires.

  2. #22
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    I assure you its not very hard to hit a DC of 110-120 and CHA of 100-110 if you try. Look at set bonuses, maximize your enhancements and ED twists, there is festive and exceptional augments, Yugo pots, remnant pots, buffs, fillagrees for weapons and minor artifacts, etc. If you want to have a reliable DC, you must maximize from every resource possible.
    That is way too much work for a passing bard life. I'll be something else in 2 weeks.
    Sometimes I pull one out just to watch it die over and over. That's how much I hate hires.

  3. #23
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    You have to go more or less "all in" to make spell DCs work. That doesn't mean you need literally every bonus that it's possible to get, but you do have to make spell DCs your #1 priority. It's very difficult to make a build that does both good martial (melee/ranged weapons) DPS and has good spell DCs because they both require significant investments. Tactics are typically a much easier path for DPS builds to get some CC as the DCs can be viable with less investment.

    [edit] This applies primarily to cap play (legendary). It's much easier to get spell DCs to work leveling.
    Yea. I found that out on a few caster lives. all or nothing. It's a decent build for every level but 34. 33 out of 34 isn't bad.
    Sometimes I pull one out just to watch it die over and over. That's how much I hate hires.

  4. #24
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlavoredSoul View Post
    If you only have 78 charisma then you clearly do not have "best non raid gear" in terms of DC casting. of course you're not going to land CC spells on a melee build with nearly zero investment.

    90+ cha on a caster is bare minimum for cha based DC casting, probably need more since you likely aren't fully speced with enchant DC bonuses since you're a melee build.

    Either post your gear list or your claims will be ignored.
    I'm fully specced for enchantment dc's. focus, insightful focus, spell pen, insightful spell pen.
    If there was an equivalent item for enchantment as there is for evocation in the RL cloak I might be better off.
    Sometimes I pull one out just to watch it die over and over. That's how much I hate hires.

  5. #25
    Community Member krimsonrane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eryhn View Post
    havent played a capped bard in a while but your issue lies right here and maybe elsewhere too...

    for comparison:



    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6118253

    yeah that's from a fvs. yeah that's with like all the bling. but main stat building is pretty generic accross classes, even if you subtract out a bunch of stuff like max tome/reaper/remnant/racial hitting high 80s or maybe low 90s ain't that hard anymore nowadays?

    did you take enchant/evoc feats/twists and use spellfocus items and stacking spellfocus items?
    quality stat and quality dc?

    trip is STR and combat mastery/vertigo based btw ...

    low blow and coup de grace benefit of perform/ins perform/stacking cha skill items ...

    posting your actual individual DCs and stat/DC relevant gear might help to zero in on areas you could improved with gear and or enhancements/feat adjustments ...


    I dont think it is wrong per default that on a possibly a bit randomly geared swash build you dont hit elite at cap spell dcs automatically - at the same time pretty sure this can be fixed for elite with some tinkering
    I'll skip posting stats and gear. i won't be a bard in a week or so. So that won't help me now.
    Sometimes I pull one out just to watch it die over and over. That's how much I hate hires.

  6. #26
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eryhn View Post
    no it is not the problem. depending on build hybrid still works fine, [...]he said 116 works for r8-10 not is required for elite..
    Yeah, sorry, I meant for mid to high skulls end game.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoBoDaClown View Post
    I think (from a Bard perspective), caster hybrids were always somewhat difficult; however, the game used to be so easy it was quite forgiving.
    At one point, yes. But I am thinking right before the explosion of melee power + crit multiplier bonuses, when soloing EEs was posted as an achievement. Back then the game was still somehow hard, and building for self sufficiency (BYOH, BObuffs, etc.) often was what made characters fun and powerful.

    I remember when Shoikan released his battle FVS, and it combined successfully casting and melee. Arguably, it became easier over time because of power creep, right until reaper was released. A melee casting hybrid bard has no role at all in challenging reaper (end game quests, highish skulls).

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post

    At one point, yes. But I am thinking right before the explosion of melee power + crit multiplier bonuses, when soloing EEs was posted as an achievement. Back then the game was still somehow hard, and building for self sufficiency (BYOH, BObuffs, etc.) often was what made characters fun and powerful.
    Probably just me. When playing a CC Caster/Healer bard, I could never feel comfortable sacrificing my DCs/Spell Pen/Healing (guess, I wasn't a 'hybrid' type).

    I remember the Bard build you are referencing (Monte) - it took a hit on DC and spell pen (maybe healing as well, I can't remember). I guess different playstyles - I liked my caster bards being as close to 100% I could get, without silly sacrifices.

    But each to their own. The point stands - such a build was viable/popular, now it isn't. Personally, I think due to increasing difficulty (which on the whole, is a good thing, but brings some negatives).
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    I'll skip posting stats and gear. i won't be a bard in a week or so. So that won't help me now.
    I don't see the point of complaining that your build isn't working if you're not intending to find out what's wrong and go through with it. Maybe because I don't TR every 2-3 weeks but I try to make the effort to squueze the most out of my builds. Nothing is particularly wrong with the legendary DCs; something is definitely wrong in how you think you're not reaching them.
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  9. #29
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoBoDaClown View Post
    Probably just me. When playing a CC Caster/Healer bard, I could never feel comfortable sacrificing my DCs/Spell Pen/Healing (guess, I wasn't a 'hybrid' type).

    I remember the Bard build you are referencing (Monte) - it took a hit on DC and spell pen (maybe healing as well, I can't remember). I guess different playstyles - I liked my caster bards being as close to 100% I could get, without silly sacrifices.

    But each to their own. The point stands - such a build was viable/popular, now it isn't. Personally, I think due to increasing difficulty (which on the whole, is a good thing, but brings some negatives).
    We agree 100%. I am just pointing out that OP might be frustrated because he thinks of DDO in terms of what was viable and fun in that era, which is long gone and meta has shifted completely.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by askrj1 View Post
    I don't see the point of complaining that your build isn't working if you're not intending to find out what's wrong and go through with it. Maybe because I don't TR every 2-3 weeks but I try to make the effort to squueze the most out of my builds. Nothing is particularly wrong with the legendary DCs; something is definitely wrong in how you think you're not reaching them.
    Yeah and I see no point in complaining if your intention was only a past life. DC Casting requires farming the gear, fillagrees, augments, etc. On top of a weak DC Build, you have put zero thought into a DC toon and just thought you would make a good life out of it. If you wanted just a past life out of it, you might consider a different route unless you already amassed a bunch of other PLs and gear prior. Any DC caster, including Bard is going to be rough life if you do not build it from the ground up. The forum is not a place to come and whine about how disappointing your temporary life is.

  11. #31
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    DC has been "all or nothing" for builds for quite some time now. With stats and DCs over 100, a 20 increment range is still building through ~80 points of "always fail" DC before getting to the parts where you have a chance of success.
    Historically: If every melee nerf after each melee class revamp was reverted back to its pre-nerf version, which melee build(s) are OP in the current meta?

  12. #32
    Sovereign Vorpal Halfling of Supreme Good scipiojedi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    The forum is not a place to come and whine about how disappointing your temporary life is.
    But where else can the OP do this? Doesn't he need a safe place to voice his complaints? I'm not arguing that his complaints are valid, just that he is feeling disappointed and sometimes you just need someone to listen to you, even if you're wrong. Sometimes people need to be listened to and not offered advice.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    I'm fully specced for enchantment dc's.
    I'm not sure why you're claiming this when you've said multiple other things that directly contradict it. Like

    • You're running in LD, right?
    • You didn't actually take the Spell Focus feats, right?
    • Your Cha is only 78 right?
    • You've said you're mainly a Swashbuckler build, right?

    How is this "fully specced"?

    Honestly, you don't even need to be "fully specced" in Elite the way you do in high-skull Reaper, but you're not even close.

    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    I'll skip posting stats and gear.
    Convenient.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 07-12-2019 at 08:50 AM.
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  14. #34
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    I think the problem here is expecting to play a hybrid, such as that old count of monte build, when DDO has stopped supporting these kind of builds.

    Back in 2013-2014-2015, we saw a whole bunch of BYOH successful hybrid builds. Bards that could cast balls and melee, Shoikan FVS melee casting hybrids, arties combining spell and martial DPS.

    Fast forward to 2019 and, with reaper, it is the time of massive specialization.

    I understand the disapointment, but OP just embrace the new mentality or drop to lower difficulties. There isn't a real alternative.
    This.

    The problem that I see is that the hybrid builds actually are not supported. The only ones that currently receive some support are the druid hybrids. But I have the same problem with my artificer.

    My artificer is not a rare build, nor complicated. It is a crossbow trapper, in light armor, which uses its spells as support. I do not see the meaning of renouncing the spells, because in such a case it is much better to play a crossbow rogue (much more damage and better defenses) I also do not see the sense of creating an artificer caster, artificer spells are too limited for that . I just want to play the whole class as it was designed in its beginnings and how it was designed in pnp: a specialist character that has a small magical support.

    However, the devs have made this concept virtually unfeasible, at least in an alt. There is not a set that gives you bonunes to dc (it would be enough with only evocation) at the same time that it gives you bonunes that make you viable with your weapon. The breakdown that posters wrote here for fvs presupposes going in an exalted angel, something evidently unfeasible in an artifice. So three less than DC there for going in Shadowdancer. Resorting to otto + eye sets in filigrees means giving up a lot of weapon damage. The devs have not been able to create sets for hybrids where there is a mix of DC bonus evocation, spell damage and physical damage. In short, you start adding and adding and the lost bonuses add up to a huge difference.

    To this I have to add that the toon is an alt and he does not have as many lives as my main. That implies, of course less than even (-2 int racials, -2 int racial complecionist, -2 int racial heroic, -1 evo DC sorc PL) I do not have a helm with reaper bonus in this toon (in fact, I've only got a helm of these, I do not do rerolls of chests)

    It was a build that worked until not long ago. The fact that the devs have stopped supporting these builds is what has made it no longer work. Currently, it is much better to reroll to a rogue, just worry about physical damage, and have more damage and better defenses. The fact is that it would not be so difficult to make this build viable again. It only takes devs to create a set with mixed DC evocation and weapon damage, and to create a set of filigree adapted to this build (only DC evo, but with electric spellpower and ranged power bonuses) And it's because of the lack of support of the devs that these builds have virtually disappeared from the endgame, and now the only artificers that remain are either tanks, or crossbowmen focused on damage purely physical (the majority of these builds, multiclasses; pure artificer without spell support is way worse than pure rogue)

    Something similar happens to op, although bards are in a better situation than the artifices. But let's see: a melee build with a punctual enchantement spells support. This does not go in exalted angel (-4 DC) This does not take a set of filigree otto + eye (-5 DC) This does not take a set of sharn (no set for bards, really) -5 DC. Just by having a hybrid build are already -14 DC, which is not little. And a lot of what poster put in that fvs breakdown is not reasonable to ask for, really. Racial complecionist is a stupid grind. Reaper helm depends on luck. Etc. I say that the bards are in a better situation than the artificers because they have a specific set of filigree (melony) that helps them with the DC, and it is possible to create a sentient weapon that helps something with the DCs without losing too much in the physical area. However, artificers do not have that luxury. The lack of sharn set for these builds and the fact that the EDs do not support the hybrids well (and with the pass of the EDs this is going to be even worse) is a problem shared by both

    Even something that should be as simple as being able to add DC evocation, insightful evocation DC, quality dc evotacion, electric spell power + the weapon bonuses and standard defenses is impossible due to the current tetris gear. And believe me I've tried, but there's no way to fit all the bonuses because of the insane way in which gear team is currently designed.

    We live in a time of the game where only the superspecialist builds work and are supported. Thats the reality. A hybrid can only have the possibility of functioning if it is your main with a lot of past lives. And even then, it will not work as well as a specialist.

    And everything is for lack of foresight of the devs. No more no less.


    ----------

    By the way, that ****es me off enough that in the threads where I complain that the alts are being killed by the excess of past lives I always get people saying that the first lifers are perfectly viable, but curiously in the build viability breakdowns never missing add the million of bonuses that give the past lives. It will be that the alts are not as viable as those people say xD.
    Last edited by Iriale; 07-12-2019 at 09:55 AM.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  15. #35
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    We agree 100%. I am just pointing out that OP might be frustrated because he thinks of DDO in terms of what was viable and fun in that era, which is long gone and meta has shifted completely.
    Well, I do not agree. the game should support the hybrid builds, not just the superspecialists. Currently the game only supports either the physical bard or the spellsinger, but not the hybrid melee + enchanter which is actually the concept of bard in its origins, the bard that was taken from the pnp game. To say that it is not reasonable to expect that a classic concept of bard does not work is what seems irrational to me.

    I find that the op does well to draw the attention of devs on this. They are neglecting part of the game. They are still in time to fix it. They should take into account the hybrids in the EDs. I have indicated it in the threads of the ED pass. They should take into account the hybrids in the gear design. But forgetting them is not reasonable.
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by scipiojedi View Post
    But where else can the OP do this? Doesn't he need a safe place to voice his complaints? I'm not arguing that his complaints are valid, just that he is feeling disappointed and sometimes you just need someone to listen to you, even if you're wrong. Sometimes people need to be listened to and not offered advice.
    OP is free to be voicing his complaints, but when you do it expect to be ridiculed as much as how little thought and effort you have put into your play. If OP is fine with that he's free to continue. Not to say I know what his actual intention was.
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  17. #37
    Community Member shores11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krimsonrane View Post
    So, i'm about 3 lives from completionist. Just capped my bard life and as usual I gear up with the best non raid gear available just to see the class potential. Charisma is well represented in RL gear. I tried a tiefling life and went mainly swash/warchanter with enough spellsinger to get inspiration melody.

    I like bards. i played one once before with the same disappointments at cap. Except for fascinate none of his DC's as a swash/LD ED can be made high enough for no fail elite 34 quests. Hell, i can't even get a dancing ball to hold one creature on LE. No CC works at level 34. Low blow, trip, freeze, sonics, w/e. I've got a 78 charisma with all the insightful bonuses on my CC gear and it's still not enough.
    On level 33 he's a beast. one level higher and he's a wannabe dodge fighter with no dependable CC whatsoever.

    I could break down my gear set but there's no reason to do so. i'm satisfied that I did the best I could which is considerable.
    Because of that I'm pretty sure bard won't be my final build.

    PS:
    beyond heroics I really could not find any synergy with bard and tiefling other than a 20 starting charisma. The racial enhancements are weak and weaker. I don't know why the devs think chump change fire damage is so awesome.
    I would have to disagree. I play a halfling bard that is Swashbuckler/Warchanter. He is mostly 100% support melee and can do a lot of damage to include frequent freezing in combat. I did not take the T5 Warchanter freeze but up through T4. I am enjoying him a lot.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
    Well, I do not agree. the game should support the hybrid builds, not just the superspecialists. Currently the game only supports either the physical bard or the spellsinger, but not the hybrid melee + enchanter which is actually the concept of bard in its origins, the bard that was taken from the pnp game. To say that it is not reasonable to expect that a classic concept of bard does not work is what seems irrational to me.

    I find that the op does well to draw the attention of devs on this. They are neglecting part of the game. They are still in time to fix it. They should take into account the hybrids in the EDs. I have indicated it in the threads of the ED pass. They should take into account the hybrids in the gear design. But forgetting them is not reasonable.
    And in PnP a bard was a weak melee. I do not see it any different in DDO than in PnP lore, except that they including swashbuckled prestige, which is really a home brew if I am not mistaken. No bard is going to go out and solo a fire breathing dragon with their rapiers or dagger and lute. No bard is going to match the wits of a powerful archemage or Lich. But they will party support and provide utility for the party and probably sing a good tune about it afterwards and likely take more credit than they deserve.

    Maybe the OP inadvertently built the closest thing to PnP bard after all.
    Last edited by jskinner937; 07-12-2019 at 09:19 AM.

  19. #39
    Community Member ChadB123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    No bard is going to go out and solo a fire breathing dragon with their rapiers or dagger and lute.
    No bard, you say?

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  20. #40
    Community Member Iriale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    And in PnP a bard was a weak melee. I do not see it any different in DDO than in PnP lore, except that they including swashbuckled prestige, which is really a home brew if I am not mistaken. No bard is going to go out and solo a fire breathing dragon with their rapiers or dagger and lute. No bard is going to match the wits of a powerful archemage or Lich. But they will party support and provide utility for the party and probably sing a good tune about it afterwards and likely take more credit than they deserve.

    Maybe the OP inadvertently built the closest thing to PnP bard after all.
    in pnp bard is a good addition to the group, the master of nothing but useful for the contribution of its many varied resources that can contribute. The problem that we are discussing here is that this is not possible in the current DDO, because now only the super specialists are supported. You can focus on your physical abilities like the video they have put up and forget about your enchantments or you can go to pure spellsinger and be a toon of only magical support. But the builds that try to use the whole class (and remember that these builds are not something weird, have worked in DDO since always) now do not work.

    It is not unreasonable to ask that the devs correct the path they have put into the game, prioritizing only the superspecialist builds and forgetting builds that are CLASSIC both in D&D and in PNP. The solution is easy - better support in gear and in the next ED pass take into account these builds. That they adapt at least one ED for these builds, it's not much to ask.

    To me what seems stupid is that DDO is supporting a concept of artificer tank, something for which the class is not designed in its conception and however it does not support the CLASSIC build of trapper in light armor with small support of spells. for the love of God, I do not ask to do a damage like the sorcerer, but simply to have the DC enough for them to work! And it is impossible to have it if the devs do not create the proper itemization!


    Maybe with the next update we will see sets to the sharn style for these builds. Maybe ... but it's not surprising that people are frustrated, because that will take months
    English is not my native language. Sorry for the mistakes.

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