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  1. #1
    Community Member SynalonEtuul's Avatar
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    Default Best DC caster class?

    I recently Tred my maxed sun elf PM wizard, after not playing for about 2 years. Gone to a Tiefling fire sorc with the idea to respec to DCs when that's more viable. But what is seen as the best, most effective support caster in endgame content? Do wizards still get higher DCs and more survivability? Can sorcs keep up? Or maybe now they are better as they have higher DPS to supplement enchant/necro. What's the best arcane caster for endgame content?

    Don't know much about warlocks as never played one.

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    This question is all about bias. The palemaster can easily get the highest dc’s. The warlock has the most insta death SLA. Then there is sorc. It gets the best survivability with EK. Has variety of spells better than warlock, and has the better cast speed/cd of the wiz. Each one offers something the other can’t. Personally from my casual style sorc is best, hands down.

    This however is all dependent on playstyle. So the goal is for you personally to find what fits you, then cater to that.
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    Community Member SynalonEtuul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xTethx View Post
    This question is all about bias. The palemaster can easily get the highest dc’s. The warlock has the most insta death SLA. Then there is sorc. It gets the best survivability with EK. Has variety of spells better than warlock, and has the better cast speed/cd of the wiz. Each one offers something the other can’t. Personally from my casual style sorc is best, hands down.

    This however is all dependent on playstyle. So the goal is for you personally to find what fits you, then cater to that.
    This sort of response is a little frustrating, and you always get it when you ask for comparisons. Some people seem to hate the suggestion that one class is better at something than another. But the fact is that some classes and builds are more viable than others, especially in difficult content. I'm asking people's opinions on which of these classes - sorc or wiz (or warlock) - is more effective in endgame.

    What fits my playstyle is being a viable top-tier caster build that can contribute effectively in endgame. I know each class has different strengths. What I want to know is how those strengths play out in difficult content. It seems from first glance that wizards get higher DCs more easily, and that this makes them the most effective for CCing and Insta killing mobs. Sorcs have higher DPS, but it seems like this is scaled heavily in reaper, and therefore becomes unviable. But this is just my impression. Maybe Sorcs can get the required DCs, and then have extra DPS on top of that, making them better. Hopefully some people will be able to give some info one way or the other.

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    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SynalonEtuul View Post
    I recently Tred my maxed sun elf PM wizard, after not playing for about 2 years. Gone to a Tiefling fire sorc with the idea to respec to DCs when that's more viable. But what is seen as the best, most effective support caster in endgame content? Do wizards still get higher DCs and more survivability? Can sorcs keep up? Or maybe now they are better as they have higher DPS to supplement enchant/necro. What's the best arcane caster for endgame content?

    Don't know much about warlocks as never played one.
    Best DC caster class? It depends.

    Wizard is going to have better DCs than the other classes by a meaningful margin in a lot of content. If your DCs are going to be good enough without that, then Sorcerer is much better than Wizard. If you need that DC difference, then either Wizard will be better than Sorcerer or neither class will be acceptable because your DCs will need to be higher to do meaningful DC casting even on a Wizard.

    I'd say that Sorcerer is going to make you happier because of the shorter cooldowns and because of the fact that if you don't have enough DC to make DC casting "stick", then you have DPS to fall back on so that you can at least run Elite/R1 and get the better gear you want/need and then try again after an ETR/TR.

    I love me some Warlock and it's super easy to get enough DC to be relevant in Elite/R1 even at cap, but they're not amazing at higher R unless you're going for a very specific niche with a good group that only expects you to spot heal, throw a Evard's Tentacles every 15 seconds, and debuff the boss when it gets to that point. They can still contribute, but they aren't optimal.
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  5. #5
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SynalonEtuul View Post
    What fits my playstyle is being a viable top-tier caster build that can contribute effectively in endgame. I know each class has different strengths. What I want to know is how those strengths play out in difficult content.
    100% depends on your gear and past lives. Can you hit the DCs to make DC casting work?

    Run a Sorc up to cap and try it out. You'll find out soon enough what R level you can hack. I guarantee you'll at least be comfortable at R1 with a Sorcerer even if you have to drop back to DPS casting, so it's not like it's a massive risk. And worst case, you don't enjoy it as much as you had hoped and you get a past life.
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    Community Member SynalonEtuul's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice! Yeah, it looks like wizards still get considerably higher DCs a lot easier. I wonder if I could get them high enough on a sorc, and how much DPS that would sacrifice...

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    100% depends on your gear and past lives. Can you hit the DCs to make DC casting work?

    Run a Sorc up to cap and try it out. You'll find out soon enough what R level you can hack. I guarantee you'll at least be comfortable at R1 with a Sorcerer even if you have to drop back to DPS casting, so it's not like it's a massive risk. And worst case, you don't enjoy it as much as you had hoped and you get a past life.
    For reference:

    3x wiz
    3x fvs
    1x clr

    3x energy crit
    3x brace
    1x skill mastery
    1x colours

    3x morninglord

    So not a huge number, but most of what you want for a caster. As for gear I have old endgame stuff, like TF and Mark of Death. So not the best stuff available at present.

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    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    I totally recommend reading through https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...op-Sharn-trash

    It's a long thread, but lots of good insights and pointers on what gear is/isn't relevant.

    Just Sharn and Ravenloft by themselves are all you'll need for a solid DC caster and if you happen to have the other packs, that's awesome.

    And there are enough people doing Ravenloft on Rwhatever and farming Sharn for gear still that you can reasonably join in a group and let them know that you're still looking for specific pieces in chests if someone happens to get a spare.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SynalonEtuul View Post
    This sort of response is a little frustrating, and you always get it when you ask for comparisons. Some people seem to hate the suggestion that one class is better at something than another. But the fact is that some classes and builds are more viable than others, especially in difficult content. I'm asking people's opinions on which of these classes - sorc or wiz (or warlock) - is more effective in endgame.

    What fits my playstyle is being a viable top-tier caster build that can contribute effectively in endgame. I know each class has different strengths. What I want to know is how those strengths play out in difficult content. It seems from first glance that wizards get higher DCs more easily, and that this makes them the most effective for CCing and Insta killing mobs. Sorcs have higher DPS, but it seems like this is scaled heavily in reaper, and therefore becomes unviable. But this is just my impression. Maybe Sorcs can get the required DCs, and then have extra DPS on top of that, making them better. Hopefully some people will be able to give some info one way or the other.
    Okay then, I’ll give you the powergamer response then. 100% sorc all the way, it’s no contest.
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    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Evards, Howl of Terror, Hurl and tainted aura. Sorc doesn't get that.

    Few amazing sorcs but still think the lock gets an edge.

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    Default Loaded Question

    DCs are not the only thing to consider. Spell penetration must be addressed. Most will accomplish that through wizard and favored souls past lives as well as picking up a few low hanging fruit and in Enhancement trees and ED’s. You want to end up somewhere around 65-70 for no fail at end game.

    The other thing that makes this a loaded question is are you talking about focusing on a very specific school of spells or DCS in every school Or even a primary and a secondary school and focus.

    Wizard is kind of like a jack of all trades because all the extra spells and feats they get they can basically have a workable DC and spell pen to boot in every school and even have a strong primary and secondary focus. They do suffer from limited SPs, lack of good SLAs and slower casting.

    Cleric is basically the divine version of a wizard. Except they do not get many extra feats so spell penn must be achieved through PLs and they really can focus on or two strong schools maybe 3 again with many PLs. They also have slow casting like wizzes and limited SPs. But the deity grants and SLAs are much better than wizzes. Many feel clerics overall are the best casters.

    FVS will basically be good at one or two schools but have faster casting, decent SLAs and gobs of SPs. They can also melee. It’s a very fun class but you will not normally go this route for strong DCs.

    Warlocks suffer a bit in the DC department just because their spells only scale up to level 6 with heighten as compared to 9. But you can still achieve a workable DC. Again it’s usually a one or two trick pony although. And they never have to worry about self heals or SPs.

    Druids are probably the most cripple as a caster class. They can viable as a caster but most people go wolf build anymore.

    Artificers can achieve a good DC but it’s really only one school for them evocation. No instakills but they can be good CC. They also do not need any spell penn.

    Sorcs are a specialist class. If you are going DCs you really need to have PLs in wizzes and FVS to get your spell penn where you want. Doing that you can actually end up a school or two that competes with most other classes and still have the best damage overall of all the other caster choices. They get gobs if SPs and good SLAs and their casting time is the fastest.

    It really depends on your goal and PLs.

    Oh when I hear DCs I assume you are talking about CC or instakills. There are some schools that do not require spell penn btw. I think all insta kills except prismatic Ray/spray and sunburst require a spell penn check including hurl (I believe). But some good CC options that do not require Web, Tactical detonate, earthquake, burst of glacial wrath (Epic Feat), comet fall, cyclonic blast, electric loop, glitter dust, grease, greater shout, gust of wind, ice storm, incendiary cloud, jaws of winter, lightning sphere, orders’s Wrath, prismatic Ray, prismatic spray, prismatic strike, salt ray, silence creature, sleet storm, snare, solid fog, sonic blast, spike growth, static shock, stinking cloud, sunbeam, sunburst, takedown and unholy blight.
    Last edited by jskinner937; 07-09-2019 at 03:06 PM.

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    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    The things to consider when discussing DC casting

    1. Highest DC possible for that class
    This can vary, some classes/builds can achieve very high DCs in a couple of schools, while others may not be the highest but have a higher depth of schools in which they can achieve DCs

    2. Debuff capabilities
    Some classes/builds can make up or exceed the difference between where they are and highest DCs possible via debuffs

    3. Depth of spells
    It doesn't matter how good your DCs on spell x is, if what you are facing is immune to the spell

    This is why you will almost always get the "Depends" answer .

    Wizard has lots of advantages over other classes when it comes to DCs because they not only have Depth of spells/schools they also have access to many debuff options

    When it comes to races, any race with "caster attribute" as a racial option gets that DC advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I love me some Warlock and it's super easy to get enough DC to be relevant in Elite/R1 even at cap, but they're not amazing at higher R unless you're going for a very specific niche with a good group that only expects you to spot heal, throw a Evard's Tentacles every 15 seconds, and debuff the boss when it gets to that point. They can still contribute, but they aren't optimal.
    I disagree with the DC comment. Warlock does have a slightly lower dc potential than all other dc casting classes, but I am soloing R5 just fine with my dcs (build in sig) which are lower than max potential for even a warlock to make the build more solo-capable. I also do fine in higher skulls with the build although I run mid skulls much more often.

    The thing very unique about warlock dc casting is that they have 2 instakill spells based on a will save. So while it is harder to overcome high fort save enemies than a wizard, sorc or favored soul for example, I also have the option of using devour the soul or hurl though hell based on a will save. Tentacles is also as super useful cc spell that works on many things that are otherwise immune to cc and/or instakill.

    I think the approach of trying to hit a magic # is very flawed. Instead I think it's better to have a diverse toolkit and use the right spells on the right enemies at the right time. You definitely want a high dc, but you can be effective with dcs below the max. Mythology that being 4-5dc below the max will make you ineffective is very overblown.

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    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I disagree with the DC comment. Warlock does have a slightly lower dc potential than all other dc casting classes, but I am soloing R5 just fine with my dcs (build in sig) which are lower than max potential for even a warlock to make the build more solo-capable. I also do fine in higher skulls with the build although I run mid skulls much more often.

    The thing very unique about warlock dc casting is that they have 2 instakill spells based on a will save. So while it is harder to overcome high fort save enemies than a wizard, sorc or favored soul for example, I also have the option of using devour the soul or hurl though hell based on a will save. Tentacles is also as super useful cc spell that works on many things that are otherwise immune to cc and/or instakill.

    I think the approach of trying to hit a magic # is very flawed. Instead I think it's better to have a diverse toolkit and use the right spells on the right enemies at the right time. You definitely want a high dc, but you can be effective with dcs below the max. Mythology that being 4-5dc below the max will make you ineffective is very overblown.
    being 30 below the max will definitely make you ineffective, though.

    You our can run R5 because you have the gear and past lives and reaper points you need to make that happen. If you’re just getting your feet wet with DC casting, that’s not likely to happen. You’ll hit the numbers you need eventually, but while you’re getting to that point, You’re not going to be contributing in the same way.

    What do your DCs look like at level 27 on Elite compared to how they look at level 29/30 on Reaper? Yes, knowing what spells to throw when it’s important, but having decent DCs in the first place is important too. If you have 100 DC, you can do a lot of things that someone with 60 DC can’t even consider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    being 30 below the max will definitely make you ineffective, though.

    You our can run R5 because you have the gear and past lives and reaper points you need to make that happen. If you’re just getting your feet wet with DC casting, that’s not likely to happen. You’ll hit the numbers you need eventually, but while you’re getting to that point, You’re not going to be contributing in the same way.

    What do your DCs look like at level 27 on Elite compared to how they look at level 29/30 on Reaper? Yes, knowing what spells to throw when it’s important, but having decent DCs in the first place is important too. If you have 100 DC, you can do a lot of things that someone with 60 DC can’t even consider.
    I think the trap with Warlock for less than experienced DC casters also is the Spell Penn factor. When it comes to Warlock all of their instakills and CC, including Evards, but excluding Web, requires a Spell penn check. This makes it tough unless you have a few Wizzy and FVS PLs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    FVS will basically be good at one or two schools but have faster casting.
    This is incorrect.

    Favored Souls have the same casting speed and cool downs of a cleric. Ive no idea why they didn't get the same treatment as Sorcerer's faster casting speed and shorter cool downs..

    FVS also have strong DC's to multiple spell schools due to getting +3 DC from level 18 and 20 cores as well as +6 Wis or Cha and +1 Evo from Angel of Vengeance. Aura of Menace also debufs -2 to saves and -3 Spell Resistance with range restriction of 15 meters.

    Cleric gets +4 to chosen DC or +2 to all DC's from Domains, up to +2 Necro or Evo school and total of +4 Wis from Divine Disciple.

    The biggest drawback now with Sharn is they don't get Sunburst that Wiz, Sorc, Druid and Cleric can get outside of Sun Elf. But, Sun Elf is a terrible race for Divine and the cool down is too long.
    Last edited by HuneyMunster; 07-11-2019 at 01:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SynalonEtuul View Post
    I recently Tred my maxed sun elf PM wizard, after not playing for about 2 years. Gone to a Tiefling fire sorc with the idea to respec to DCs when that's more viable. But what is seen as the best, most effective support caster in endgame content? Do wizards still get higher DCs and more survivability? Can sorcs keep up? Or maybe now they are better as they have higher DPS to supplement enchant/necro. What's the best arcane caster for endgame content?

    Don't know much about warlocks as never played one.
    I have tried many different casters for endgame. My preference is a DC warlock for following reasons.

    1. Most hit points.
    2. Get both Will save necro spells and Fort save necro spells
    3. You can get DPS and spell like effects without Mana
    4. You can wear medium armor without a feat or need for armor agility.
    5. You can use Exalted Angel for healing and casting


    All of the above gives you very survival caster in high level content with versatility. I currently have a level 30 Asimar fiend warlock, works really well in most situations. Only problem I've ran into was in THTH. I could not kill the flaming skulls fast as needed during the raid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SynalonEtuul View Post
    I recently Tred my maxed sun elf PM wizard, after not playing for about 2 years. Gone to a Tiefling fire sorc with the idea to respec to DCs when that's more viable. But what is seen as the best, most effective support caster in endgame content? Do wizards still get higher DCs and more survivability? Can sorcs keep up? Or maybe now they are better as they have higher DPS to supplement enchant/necro. What's the best arcane caster for endgame content?

    Don't know much about warlocks as never played one.
    I think depends on the content, and the last enhnamcement pass

    For me end game is raid in reaper (except thth we are working on it)

    Actually sorc is n1 because killing time and thth
    (Instantkill, sunburst, discoball)
    Due to the fast casting time, sp pool

    But the most important is the player , only thing now is warlocks dont have sunburst
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    Aborim Master (main toon) --- Nickallin (my tank)--- Jjnick (warlock 30) --- Nickpunick ()--- Nickruvido (my healer)--- Nickallinone (shuri build)
    GODS

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    Community Member majorhavoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SynalonEtuul View Post
    I recently Tred my maxed sun elf PM wizard, after not playing for about 2 years. Gone to a Tiefling fire sorc with the idea to respec to DCs when that's more viable. But what is seen as the best, most effective support caster in endgame content? Do wizards still get higher DCs and more survivability? Can sorcs keep up? Or maybe now they are better as they have higher DPS to supplement enchant/necro. What's the best arcane caster for endgame content?

    Don't know much about warlocks as never played one.
    My Warlock w/ an unbuffed 116 Char has standing 110 DC for finger & Mass hold, w/ 65-68 Spell Pen which seems more than enough for most R10 content, but I must say the new Sharn R10 content is extremely challenging. I started as a Sorc, but I just cant get past the flexibility & survivalist of my Warlock.
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