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  1. #81
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LucidLTS View Post
    Invalid assumption - the underlying components are not the same, they have been burdened with additional systems and "features", so you cannot predict how the current system would respond to the prior system's load.
    You just contradicted yourself once again.

    If what you state is true here, your attempts to predict how the merged system would react to the previous system load, are invalid.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    I am going to bite. Server Consolidation is generally not a good thing for games. Rarely do games come out of a server merge stronger and more resilient than before they happen. It can be easily argued that server merges are an attempt to vastly decrease the ongoing monthly operating costs and in general are initiated more along the lines of server lease schedules than player populations.

    In the fall of 2017 EA announced that they were going to consolidate their servers for SW:TOR. This consolidation would result in the 17 servers they were operating at the time to be reduced to 5. This explanation that EA provide concerning the consolidation followed much the same rhetoric that Turbine provided when they consolidated the 14(or was it 15) DDO servers into 5 servers way back in 2007. Much of the public explanation revolved on improving game play for the players by in essence putting more players on the same servers.



    For EA if you want to know how the server merge went, you should review their forums and look closely at the posts starting in the evening of the November 8, 2017 the day that the Merges started.

    I won't go through all the steps, but the consolidation was halted, rolled back, servers patched, servers patched again, EU servers were attempted to consolidate, EU servers rolled back, servers patched ... servers consolidated on roughly Nov 22nd (give or take a day). It literally took around two weeks after they first attempt to complete. I will gloss over the staffing and the changes that occured but know that there were staffing changes shortly afterwards, draw your own conclusion.

    However after all the technical work had been resolved and players finally started logging into the game, a surprising thing happened for many of those players who were fairly vocal that a server consolidation was going to be great for them, it simply wasn't. Those people looking to PUG with grand hopes that the merge was going to create a much larger pool of pugging characters that they were going to group with were beyond dismayed when those pools not only failed to get any bigger, but actually got smaller.

    EDIT For the record I have played SW:TOR but I do not pug ever in the game. I never really saw a need to with my play style and expectations of what I wanted to accomplish. So I can only go with what other have told me of the situation and what I have read on their forums.

    There are many reasons but one that really came to the fore is players in small guilds (let say under 10 active players) quickly jumped ship and joined larger more active guilds. To be clear it wasn't everyone, but many did. These players that jumped ship and moved to larger guilds had less reason to pug missions. The game has never recovered. Today you find a decent game population in the starter areas but the game population thins out to a great extent as you get the higher level instances. The highest levels are ghost towns. Things have gotten so bad with SW:TOR that EA has publicly acknowledged that they comprehensive discussions on winding down development on the game internally.
    EA is currently developing an expansion for SW:TOR called Onslaught, publicly players on both the SW:TOR forums and fan-sites are concerned that it is a last gasp attempt to save the game from entering maintenance mode and shutting down altogether.

    What happened when DDO consolidated servers in 2007, much of the exact same thing.
    It should be point out at the time DDO basically required a Rogue and Cleric in each party, there were no hirelings, self healing was virtually not existent beyond pots and the occasional wand slinger. While players in general decried getting groups together was hard, the hard part was getting those two classes to join your party. It was not uncommon for Clerics to log in anonymously during that era because they were inundated with LFG requests, sometimes before they had even completely logged into the game world.
    There were many technical problems but from the players perspective, at least those that stayed, Clerics and to some extent Rogues joined bigger guilds that appreciated them and even fewer clerics were available to pug. The pugging scene all but died by between August and December 2007. The game hemorrhaged players during this period. My guild of 48 lost nearly half its number. One of the few bright spots of the period, Module 6 (The 13th Eclipse - AKA The Shroud) was released at the end of January 2008 and it was so good that players continued to play through launch of Eberron Unlimited in Sept 2009.
    Wow, I didn't play SW:TOR, and somehow I missed that situation. Let's hope we learn from their experience, thank you
    I am profoundly disappointed with the current state and direction of DDO, and my purchasing habits reflect this. A drastic improvement in quality of life, transparency, and honest communication would improve my spending. Promises and "more squeeze" will not.

  3. #83
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LucidLTS View Post
    ^This. I'm willing to change my mind when presented with compelling evidence, or even a sound argument, but the "because I know this" repeated often and confidently doesn't meet that standard. Even throwing in some jargon doesn't help appreciably.

    And you're also spang on about the "<x> types of <y> action". But direct causation, indirect causation, or even just correlation is enough to make me strongly prefer a more cautious path.

    Well said, thank you
    Another contradiction. If you are going to agree with the guy who says "you really dont have any idea what causes the lag" then you also dont get to predict that higher headcount per "server" causes more lag.

  4. #84
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    What happened when DDO consolidated servers in 2007, much of the exact same thing.
    It should be point out at the time DDO basically required a Rogue and Cleric in each party, there were no hirelings, self healing was virtually not existent beyond pots and the occasional wand slinger. While players in general decried getting groups together was hard, the hard part was getting those two classes to join your party. It was not uncommon for Clerics to log in anonymously during that era because they were inundated with LFG requests, sometimes before they had even completely logged into the game world.
    There were many technical problems but from the players perspective, at least those that stayed, Clerics and to some extent Rogues joined bigger guilds that appreciated them and even fewer clerics were available to pug. The pugging scene all but died by between August and December 2007. The game hemorrhaged players during this period. My guild of 48 lost nearly half its number. One of the few bright spots of the period, Module 6 (The 13th Eclipse - AKA The Shroud) was released at the end of January 2008 and it was so good that players continued to play through launch of Eberron Unlimited in Sept 2009.
    There were more people logged in per server between those dates, than there are now.

    If we are so against server merges here, perhaps someone can elaborate on how this issue will get resolved.

  5. #85
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    There were more people logged in per server between those dates, than there are now.
    As a player who routinely has watched the who list, I am going to disagree with that statement to an extent.

    On Monday evening at approximately 10 PM Eastern there were approximately 600 characters listed on the Who list on Khyber. I haven't seen numbers like that since shortly after launch.

    The characters listed in the who list on Khyber in "off peak" hours is typically smaller than they once were. I used to be logged in until 3 AM and see 250 plus characters in the who list. Now if I am up that late (or early) I rarely see anything over 125. I consider 6 PM to 12 AM Eastern the peak times on Khyber. There have been days where there are 350 characters on the who list at 11:50 PM and 20 minutes later at 12:10 that number drops to 150. It is a pretty significant change and for people who play in the off hours I am fairly certain grouping is a lot more difficult than those that play during the peak hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If we are so against server merges here, perhaps someone can elaborate on how this issue will get resolved.
    There have been numerous solutions proposed however my point is until SSG decide, figure out how to resolve the issue with the real money players have put into guilds (Lots of top end Airships out there for guilds level 40 - 90) not much will change. It is the very large angry elephant in the room, and there is really no good solution.
    Last edited by GoldyGopher; 07-10-2019 at 04:52 PM.

    The Twilight Avengers are always recruiting - http://twilightavengersofeberron.yuku.com/topic/655

  6. #86

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    This thread confuses me. You can "merge" anytime you feel like with a server transfer.

  7. #87
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    On Monday evening at approximately 10 PM Eastern there were approximately 600 characters listed on the Who list on Khyber. I haven't seen numbers like that since shortly after launch.

    The characters listed in the who list on Khyber in "off peak" hours is typically smaller than they once were. I used to be logged in until 3 AM and see 250 plus characters in the who list. Now if I am up that late (or early) I rarely see anything over 125. I consider 6 PM to 12 AM Eastern the peak times on Khyber. There have been days where there are 350 characters on the who list at 11:50 PM and 20 minutes later at 12:10 that number drops to 150. It is a pretty significant change and for people who play in the off hours I am fairly certain grouping is a lot more difficult than those that play during the peak hours.
    I will take a look, but that's a large deviation from the other servers. I have never seen 600 people in Argo; and certainly not since I came back. You have to understand that there are players reporting 70 souls online when they play. Let that sink, 70 players. There are around 160 players in Khyber right now (10:16 UTC).

    Server Consolidation is generally not a good thing for games.
    When a MMO drops to under 100 players in a server, I do not think this observation applies.

    PS - Please feel free to report population numbers at whatever time you log in to play.
    Last edited by BigErkyKid; 07-10-2019 at 05:23 PM.

  8. #88
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    I would like to point the irony that... OP was ine of those saying "no to merging, my server is the default one and works for my playstyle"

    It took a bit but he noticed that his playstyle wasn't the only one, in fact his playstyle changed

    When all these nay sayers notice it... Well, we will have no more DDO

    I don't pug, but i can understand ppl not staying in DDO cause it's a single player game with a chat room.. But the chat is dead

    So for me, all these "that game happened that, what will happen with my cache, and my name, guild and my 300 mails in 5 years from now (see? Ppl lost lots of useful stuff with the mail change and the game survived and really, someone who logs once in 5 years isn'ta a meaning vote) are only examples of poor excuses, the same you would expect from a 70 year old fart who only cares about his yard and not about the world development

    Merge servers, make migrated caches and shared banks only retrievable, give rename guild/toon, and save the game before the greedy bastards sink it
    psykopeta is finally baconpletionist because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS: I post only in the latest thread shown in main page, in the weird case u want something from me, feel free to send pm

  9. #89
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psykopeta View Post
    I would like to point the irony that... OP was ine of those saying "no to merging, my server is the default one and works for my playstyle"

    It took a bit but he noticed that his playstyle wasn't the only one, in fact his playstyle changed


    [...]

    Merge servers, make migrated caches and shared banks only retrievable, give rename guild/toon, and save the game before the greedy bastards sink it
    I don't know what you are talking about, honestly. Feel free to go through my post list and link my opposition to server mergers. If there are such posts, and in the tone you say them, I'll be amused, surprised, and humbled.

  10. #90
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    What happened when DDO consolidated servers in 2007, much of the exact same thing.
    It should be point out at the time DDO basically required a Rogue and Cleric in each party, there were no hirelings, self healing was virtually not existent beyond pots and the occasional wand slinger. While players in general decried getting groups together was hard, the hard part was getting those two classes to join your party. It was not uncommon for Clerics to log in anonymously during that era because they were inundated with LFG requests, sometimes before they had even completely logged into the game world.
    There were many technical problems but from the players perspective, at least those that stayed, Clerics and to some extent Rogues joined bigger guilds that appreciated them and even fewer clerics were available to pug. The pugging scene all but died by between August and December 2007. The game hemorrhaged players during this period. My guild of 48 lost nearly half its number. One of the few bright spots of the period, Module 6 (The 13th Eclipse - AKA The Shroud) was released at the end of January 2008 and it was so good that players continued to play through launch of Eberron Unlimited in Sept 2009.
    As someone who played a number of clerics and rogues back in the beginning, I can vouch that my characters routinely got requests to join a new group, even when in the middle of raids. Eventually, the only solution was to go anonymous and cease even showing up on the Who list. I think many of my older characters are still anonymous since they seldom get random invites, while when playing one of the older toons, they avoid that. So one thing to take from that is that just using the who list is a suspect count for active population since many are likely still choosing to remain unseen. There ~250 names on the who list right now on Sarlona amd 16 LFMs active over a wide range of levels. One thing that was always an issue was that way to many folks asking for groups/LFMs would never actually post them themselves. Guilds were the safe haven since you avoiding the vagaries of the PUG world back then.
    Last edited by Zenako; 07-10-2019 at 05:32 PM.
    Sarlona - The Ko Brotherhood :Jareko-Elf Ranger12Rogue8+4E; Hennako-Human Cleric22; Rukio-Human Paladin18; Taellya-Halfling Rogue16; Zenako-Dwarf Fighter10Cleric1; Daniko-Drow Bard20; Kerriganko-Human Cleric18; Buket-WF Fighter6; Xenophilia-Human Wiz20; Zenakotwo-Dwarf Cleric16; Yadnomko-Halfling Ftr12; Gabiko-Human Bard15; lots more

  11. #91
    Community Member Epicstorms's Avatar
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    Yes to any solution that brings the entire DDO playerbase together. That can be with a server merge, a new server with free transfers, cross-server grouping, etc.

  12. #92
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    As a player who routinely has watched the who list, I am going to disagree with that statement to an extent.

    On Monday evening at approximately 10 PM Eastern there were approximately 600 characters listed on the Who list on Khyber. I haven't seen numbers like that since shortly after launch.

    The characters listed in the who list on Khyber in "off peak" hours is typically smaller than they once were. I used to be logged in until 3 AM and see 250 plus characters in the who list. Now if I am up that late (or early) I rarely see anything over 125. I consider 6 PM to 12 AM Eastern the peak times on Khyber. There have been days where there are 350 characters on the who list at 11:50 PM and 20 minutes later at 12:10 that number drops to 150. It is a pretty significant change and for people who play in the off hours I am fairly certain grouping is a lot more difficult than those that play during the peak hours.
    MMO Data has DDO at 45K active subs in 2007 at the low point of 2007. Anyone think concurrency is near that now?
    http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-3.png

    Keep in mind that is active accounts only. DDO required a subscription to play in that era.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    There have been numerous solutions proposed however my point is until SSG decide, figure out how to resolve the issue with the real money players have put into guilds (Lots of top end Airships out there for guilds level 40 - 90) not much will change. It is the very large angry elephant in the room, and there is really no good solution.
    Yeah, most of the issues are bought and paid for feature based, and not tech based. These merge threads are not new however, and years of time to figure this out have passed.
    Last edited by Chai; 07-10-2019 at 07:00 PM.

  13. #93

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    Need moar players ASAP!
    I can't sit around for hours waiting for the only raid (on the LFM) to fill with semi-decent pugs and complete said raid.
    There are, literally, not enough people to fill a 12 man group at cap for EU prime time evenings. This is just unacceptable.

    I demand that Devs come up with a simple, yet elegant solution to fix population problem before it's too late.

  14. #94
    Master Assassin nokowi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Komradkillingmachine View Post

    I demand that Devs come up with a simple, yet elegant solution to fix population problem before it's too late.
    It is already too late.

    You can't ignore player experience and focus solely on selling the next thing and nerfing the last thing.

    You can't treat your paying customers as if they have little value.

    You can't ignore the easiest to acquire player base (those willing to post here) and ever get a population increase.

    At some point, customers simply loose faith in a brand.

    Those still here can thank SSG for keeping the game alive this long, while those left at the curb can understand why the population is going to continue to decline.

    We've seen what SSG has to offer and what you see is what you get.
    It's much easier to demonize those providing feedback (whining, childish, bringing the forums down, etc) or minimize their voice (small number, vocal, etc) than to accept the fact that the agro/stealth system just missed the mark.
    A good company learns to listen to their customers.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Komradkillingmachine View Post
    Need moar players ASAP!
    I can't sit around for hours waiting for the only raid (on the LFM) to fill with semi-decent pugs and complete said raid.
    There are, literally, not enough people to fill a 12 man group at cap for EU prime time evenings. This is just unacceptable.

    I demand that Devs come up with a simple, yet elegant solution to fix population problem before it's too late.

    The simple, yet elegant solution would be for the EU to correct their clocks to Chicago time. This would correctly align EU prime time evenings to North America prime time evenings and resolve the issue.
    The blinking Drooam "backpack" is NOT a party buff. But its fun to say it is.

  16. #96
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boredGamer View Post
    How can I not commit to a position but also staunchly advocate a position ?
    This was explained. Your bias here is not regarding the topic, but those discussing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by boredGamer View Post
    Further - I have in no way said there should not be server merges. Feel free to use this posting history you refer to to let me know my position on it.
    The history confirms this. We have had this conversation before.

  17. #97
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This was explained. Your bias here is not regarding the topic, but those discussing it.
    Be fair, Chai. You're awful to be in an argument with even when we agree with you.
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  18. #98
    Community Member BigErkyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post

    What happened when DDO consolidated servers in 2007, much of the exact same thing.[INDENT] The game hemorrhaged players during this period. My guild of 48 lost nearly half its number. .
    Has it occurred to you that there were server mergers BECAUSE the game was hemorrhaging players, not the other way around? And that if there hadnt been a consolidation, perhaps the game wouldn't have survived?
    Companies consolidate servers because there aren't enough players; it is costly, complicated, sends a weird vibe, and players stand to face problems in the process.

    Likely that is why, despite of the abysmal pops of some servers, DDO hasn't done it so far. However, it is getting to a fairly dramatic point in some servers. Server transfer tech has improved enormously; why not throw the players a bone?

  19. #99
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Be fair, Chai. You're awful to be in an argument with even when we agree with you.
    Yes, we are aware of the strong bias against the poster, rather than interest in the discussion topic, is what motivates some chronic-last-worders.

    This is easily confirmed btw. All we have to do when someone is trying too hard to disagree, is go to one of the previous threads on the same topic, paste a point the same person agreed with when it came from someone else (usually someone within our camp), and when they vehemently disagree with the same word for word post, the bias is confirmed. No need to reply back to that poster any longer.

    Its even more hilarious when their bias against a different poster caused them to defend the same post for multiple pages of a different discussion on the same topic, only to quote it when posted as Chai and begin their diatribe about how we couldnt possibly know what we are talking about.

    Cant claim "terrible in an argument" on that one as the only thing different there is the name of the poster. Everything else is the same, word for word.

  20. #100
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigErkyKid View Post
    Has it occurred to you that there were server mergers BECAUSE the game was hemorrhaging players, not the other way around? And that if there hadnt been a consolidation, perhaps the game wouldn't have survived?
    Companies consolidate servers because there aren't enough players; it is costly, complicated, sends a weird vibe, and players stand to face problems in the process.

    Likely that is why, despite of the abysmal pops of some servers, DDO hasn't done it so far. However, it is getting to a fairly dramatic point in some servers. Server transfer tech has improved enormously; why not throw the players a bone?
    Pretty much this.

    Folks who believe the game lost players due to merged servers are getting the chicken and the egg backwards.

    We see ALOT of feedback regarding closing the gap between new players and vets around these parts, but new players dont even hang around when they are logging into servers with ~100 people playing, 30 levels, a 4 level range to group in, across 5 different difficulty settings - one with 10 gradients.

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