Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 31
  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    78

    Default Hidden big nerf of bear, or new bug from last "no player facing difference" patch

    Yesterday I noticed, that main bear CC ability Savage Roar don't set stunned enemy helpless status . It deals sonic damage, as well as set enemy under stun animation (if have at least 2 charge and on failed save), preventing his action as intended, but nobody will receive bonus damage because helpless enemy, while attacking on stunned target by Savage Roars ability.

    I am at 25th level and almost sure that savage Roar made all affected target helpless for full this life until now.

    I have very bad feeling, that this my main character is seriously broken now. I preferred Half-Orc before Aasimar race this life only because Half-Orc Brutality enhancement (more damage against helpless) and this should be final life (just finished racial completionist) for some time.
    Single target bear stun: Great Maul working as intended, making enemies helpless.

    Neither relog nor reseting Natural Protector enhacement didn't help.

    Just made new 7th level druid character for test and he had the same problem.

  2. #2
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,229

    Default

    I don't do Bear because I do Wolf instead, so I don't know if there is any change/bug/anything with that ability. I did want to mention another option for Helpless damage for you, though - Sleetstorm. You can cast it while raged because Bear and you can move freely in your own Sleetstorm because of FoM. You get an amazing defensive buff because all the enemies in that cloud are blind. And they take extra damage from being helpless even though they aren't stunned.

    It's amazing. The most annoying and dangerous spell that I had to deal with as a new player is now my favorite offensive spell as a murderhobo Druid.
    No one in the world ever gets what they want
    And that is beautiful
    Everybody dies frustrated and sad
    And that is beautiful

  3. #3
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I don't do Bear because I do Wolf instead, so I don't know if there is any change/bug/anything with that ability. I did want to mention another option for Helpless damage for you, though - Sleetstorm. You can cast it while raged because Bear and you can move freely in your own Sleetstorm because of FoM. You get an amazing defensive buff because all the enemies in that cloud are blind. And they take extra damage from being helpless even though they aren't stunned.

    It's amazing. The most annoying and dangerous spell that I had to deal with as a new player is now my favorite offensive spell as a murderhobo Druid.
    Sleetstorm make enemy blind, so you can sneak attack them, not doing them helpless. Helpless targets receive more damage (1,5 damage multiplicator, or more with right enhancement and destiny twist (x2,2 in my case) (and receive sneak attack bonus damage too)). So, this bug reduced my damage to less than half against enemies targeted by Savage Roar (large area stun with very short cool down).
    And Bear have not his own source of sneak attack unlike wolf, so Sleetstorm don’t help except 50% concealment (and may a bit sneak attack bonus damage from deception items, rouge past life, or potentially Shadowdancer destiny).

    So Savage Roar is one of main reason why play sometimes bear build and not only wolf builds.

  4. #4
    Community Member lronEnema's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    306

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    I don't do Bear because I do Wolf instead, so I don't know if there is any change/bug/anything with that ability. I did want to mention another option for Helpless damage for you, though - Sleetstorm. You can cast it while raged because Bear and you can move freely in your own Sleetstorm because of FoM. You get an amazing defensive buff because all the enemies in that cloud are blind. And they take extra damage from being helpless even though they aren't stunned.

    It's amazing. The most annoying and dangerous spell that I had to deal with as a new player is now my favorite offensive spell as a murderhobo Druid.
    Are you sure about that. Blind creatures don't count as helpless for extra damage. They will take sneak attack damage where they normally wouldn't, but should not take extra from being helpless. If they do it's probably a bug...……..of course if it is a bug you should make maximum use of it

  5. #5
    Community Member lronEnema's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    306

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xario View Post
    Sleetstorm make enemy blind, so you can sneak attack them, not doing them helpless. Helpless targets receive more damage (1,5 damage multiplicator, or more with right enhancement and destiny twist (x2,2 in my case) (and receive sneak attack bonus damage too)). So, this bug reduced my damage to less than half against enemies targeted by Savage Roar (large area stun with very short cool down).
    And Bear have not his own source of sneak attack unlike wolf, so Sleetstorm don’t help except 50% concealment (and may a bit sneak attack bonus damage from deception items, rouge past life, or potentially Shadowdancer destiny).

    So Savage Roar is one of main reason why play sometimes bear build and not only wolf builds.
    Ninja'd - but what he said

  6. #6
    Community Member Gemini-Dragon357's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    101

    Default

    Fairly certain that this ability never made anything helpless - it only stuns.

  7. #7
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini-Dragon357 View Post
    Fairly certain that this ability never made anything helpless - it only stuns.
    I can't be 100% sure about past now, but "only stun" - STUNNED is condition, which make target helpless and skip his action. Condition witch forcing creatures only skips their actions, but don't affect their defences (not doing them helpless) is Dazed.

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Stunned

    So either ability, or its description is wrong.

    (Savage Roar: Using the Roar spell with 1 stack of Killer Instinct active now triggers a burst of 1 - 3 Sonic Damage per Druid level you have. Scales with Melee Power. If you have 2 stacks it also stuns. At three stacks the damage is increased to 5 - 10 per Druid level and also applies the stun. Fortitude save negates stun. Stun Fortitude DC: 10 + Half Druid Level + Highest of Wisdom or Strength + Stun Bonuses. Casting Roar clears all stacks of Killer Instinct.)

  8. #8
    Systems Designer
    Lynnabel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    game/cdb/effect/effects-property-2.cdb
    Posts
    2,004

    Default

    Stunned and Helpless in DDO are two different, independently tracked conditions. Stuns do not always cause helplessness, and abilities which cause helplessness will generally spell it out in the tooltip. If you find something that does cause helplessness but doesn't say so, let us know so we can fix the tooltip
    100% radical, enthusiasm enthusiast.

  9. #9
    Community Member Valiance's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    624

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Stunned and Helpless in DDO are two different, independently tracked conditions. Stuns do not always cause helplessness, and abilities which cause helplessness will generally spell it out in the tooltip. If you find something that does cause helplessness but doesn't say so, let us know so we can fix the tooltip
    Bear roar never caused helplessness in DDO you are correct. However...it should. Bears are so far behind wolves it isn't even funny and then instead of buffing roar like should be the case instead it gets nerfed to apply the save....ah well. To make matters worse it entices you in with a "stun" in the description and then bait and switches you with a "stun" that doesn't cause helplessness even though Soundburst, a 2nd level cleric spell does.

    On the other hand I'd like to take this chance to make sure you are aware that the top tier of Vistani is bugged in that Blessed Blades and Vendetta don't stack and actively overwrite each other. Let's fix these parts of DDO that are underutilized (Bear and Vistani) so that the game seems bigger, more fun and more playable to all!

  10. #10
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Stunned and Helpless in DDO are two different, independently tracked conditions. Stuns do not always cause helplessness, and abilities which cause helplessness will generally spell it out in the tooltip. If you find something that does cause helplessness but doesn't say so, let us know so we can fix the tooltip
    Most of them.
    For example most known of them:

    Stunning fist: doing stun, helpless isn't mentioned in tooltip, but doing helpless too
    Stunning blow: doing stun, helpless isn't mentioned in tooltip, but doing helpless too
    Soundburst: doing stun, helpless isn't mentioned in tooltip, but doing helpless too
    Great Maul (Big Claw) : doing stun, helpless isn't mentioned in tooltip, but doing helpless too
    Dire Charge: can't check in game now (haven't level for it but wiki say Charge forward at the targeted foe. That foe and all nearby foes are subject to +2[w] damage and have a chance to be stunned. Stun DC is (20 + highest ability modifier + bonus to stun attacks). 12 second cooldown)

    If it doing helpless condition it is usually described as stun, If isn't doing helpless is usually described as daze (as Sonic Blast for example, or Sap feat).
    I am talking about abilities using concussion effecs (and have similar animation of stunned/dazed condition), not talking about freezing, some specials trip, or another possibilities to set target to helpless condition, these other abilities (not mentioning "stun" but another condition really ussualy have noted, that they can cause helpless too in tooltip) .
    Last edited by Xario; 07-01-2019 at 12:08 PM.

  11. #11
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,791

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnabel View Post
    Stunned and Helpless in DDO are two different, independently tracked conditions. Stuns do not always cause helplessness, and abilities which cause helplessness will generally spell it out in the tooltip. If you find something that does cause helplessness but doesn't say so, let us know so we can fix the tooltip
    Tiefling Iconic's Arpeggio with the racial enhancement that turns enemies to stone seems to cause helpless. It's probably not WAI, but I think it should stay.
    Primary Home: Argonnessen
    Also known as: Archarias, Ishtaris, Arthies, Artharias, Astanius, and Fidgity.
    "Elder brains are a lot like bouncy castles. They just sit there, but if you jump up and down on them, things get interesting real quick." ~FlimsyFirewood

  12. #12
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Small village on Mars
    Posts
    884

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xario View Post
    Most of them.
    For example most known of them:

    Stunning fist: doing stun, helpless isn't mentioned in tooltip, but doing helpless too
    Stunning blow: doing stun, helpless isn't mentioned in tooltip, but doing helpless too
    Soundburst: doing stun, helpless isn't mentioned in tooltip, but doing helpless too
    Great Maul (Big Claw) : doing stun, helpless isn't mentioned in tooltip, but doing helpless too
    Dire Charge: can't check in game now (haven't level for it but wiki say Charge forward at the targeted foe. That foe and all nearby foes are subject to +2[w] damage and have a chance to be stunned. Stun DC is (20 + highest ability modifier + bonus to stun attacks). 12 second cooldown)

    If it doing helpless condition it is usually described as stun, If isn't doing helpless is usually described as daze (as Sonic Blast for example, or Sap feat).
    I am talking about abilities using concussion effecs (and have similar animation of stunned/dazed condition), not talking about freezing, some specials trip, or another possibilities to set target to helpless condition, these other abilities (not mentioning "stun" but another condition really ussualy have noted, that they can cause helpless too in tooltip) .

    You missed Color Spray, a level 1 spell that also blinds and silences at the same time.

    Greater Shout which is a level 8 spell doesn't induce helplessness when its supposed to. Its also meant to deafen targets too.

  13. #13
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    Tiefling Iconic's Arpeggio with the racial enhancement that turns enemies to stone seems to cause helpless. It's probably not WAI, but I think it should stay.
    It should be wai, because working as Stone to Flesh so making you helpless should be right

  14. #14
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuneyMunster View Post
    You missed Color Spray, a level 1 spell that also blinds and silences at the same time.

    Greater Shout which is a level 8 spell doesn't induce helplessness when its supposed to. Its also meant to deafen targets too.
    Color Spray is bugged (I thing) for full time, because it can cause daze (same as in pen and paper version), as one of its effect, so shouldn't triger helpless condition. I like it, when i used it, but it was not right.

    Grater Should shouls stun targets, but didn't it fo so long time, that tooltip was changed on Daze (https://ddowiki.com/page/Greater_Shout). at least on wiki, can't check it in game now.

  15. #15
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    78

    Default

    It look like, that I failed many spot checks during my levels to notice this "problem" so late . It isn't linked with last update.

    I just trusted "stun" condition in tooltip and chose race with bonus against helpless keeping in believe, that it is working (for my defence, I am in party with bard warchanter this life, so often attack also against helpless enemies due his frozing attack, or stunned by Sounburts).

  16. #16
    FreeDeeOh PsychoBlonde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    6,008

    Default

    Stun *makes enemies helpless*. It is LITERALLY IN THE DESCRIPTION OF WHAT THE "STUN" EFFECT IS. It may be tracked separately on the back end, but EVERY effect in the game that is described as "stun" should make affected targets helpless. Effects should be 100% consistent. Blinded does the same thing no matter where it comes from. Prone does the same thing no matter where it comes from. Stun does the same thing no matter where it comes from, and so on for Fatigued, Shaken, Exhausted, Cursed, Slowed, etc. etc. etc.

    That's the ENTIRE POINT of having effect names like this--you see the definitional word and you KNOW WHAT IT DOES.
    Last edited by PsychoBlonde; 07-01-2019 at 01:49 PM.

  17. #17
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,339

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Valiance View Post
    Bear roar never caused helplessness in DDO you are correct. However...it should.
    Debateable, but dire charge being overpowered eliminates the ability of the design team to have bear roar helpless stun. If roar did helpless stun, then bears could rotate roar and dire charge for AoE permanent helpless. They could make bears more powerful if the player base was willing to accept dire charge nerfs. The player base isn't willing to accept dire charge nerfs, so here we are, with a combat brute indirect nerf instead.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 07-01-2019 at 02:43 PM.

  18. #18
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    182

    Default

    DDO has always been a bit inconsistent with helpless and deviates from the D&D 3.5 rules on which it was (originally) based. In 3.5 Stunned [1] is always just "no action and no dex bonus", while Paralyzed [2] additionally is helpless.

    While DDO stuns often do cause helplessness (and paralyze never), it is wrong to equate the two as Lynnabel pointed out. Only some stuns have ever caused helplessness, and they mostly spell it out. This is not new.

    For example, Greater Shout stuns, but I don't believe it was ever intended to cause helpless (it didn't in D&D 3.5 [3]). Besides, the whole game is balanced around existing helpless mechanics (what would be the point of Breath of Glacial Wrath), and they are all already way too powerful. Balancing around permanently helpless mobs is pretty much why they needed 10 levels of reaper with exponential hp/dmg scaling. This is just bad for the game.

    On the flip side, Soundburst "stuns" cause helpless now, however this was patched in way later as a way to throw divine casters a bone in a meta that had devolved into Mass Holds (I think this was when epic mobs were immune to insta-kills). They previously lacked any means of inducing helpless. So what causes helpless or not in DDO has been more an evolution of balance decisions and bugs rather than principle.

    [1] https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Stunned
    [2] https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Paralyzed
    [3] http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shoutGreater.htm
    Last edited by LurkingVeteran; 07-01-2019 at 04:04 PM.

  19. #19
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    2,339

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkingVeteran View Post

    On the flip side, Soundburst "stuns" cause helpless now, however this was patched in way later as a way to throw divine casters a bone in a meta that had devolved into Mass Holds (I think this was when epic mobs were immune to insta-kills). They previously lacked any means of inducing helpless. So what causes helpless or not in DDO has been more an evolution of balance decisions and bugs rather than principle.
    Update 21 (2014) after EDs/level cap 28, but it really took the cannith/Slave Lords crafting update 32 (2016) to have the gear for it. Then they introduced double RXP at cap and left amber too long, and the meta devolved back into mass hold/IK.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 07-02-2019 at 01:31 AM.

  20. #20
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    182

    Default

    I defer to Tilo's superior Soundburst expertize

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload