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  1. #1
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    Default Spell Resistance?

    I'm curious about the current state of spell resistance. My general thoughts are that unless you are in the "correct" race/class, it's not worth putting anything towards it. However, I am often wrong and would love to be so in that case. Is there a number to aim for for SR to be relevant in low reaper?


    Edit: added "class"
    Last edited by guzzlr; 06-23-2019 at 07:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by guzzlr View Post
    I'm curious about the current state of spell resistance. My general thoughts are that unless you are in the "correct" race, it's not worth putting anything towards it. However, I am often wrong and would love to be so in that case. Is there a number to aim for for SR to be relevant in low reaper?
    20+ mob cr regardless of difficulty. https://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_Resistance

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Gauntl...e_Iron_Council +78 enhancement and insightful
    and twist t2 serenity for +9 untyped stacking

    gets you to 87 without race/class investment, don't know how useful it would turn out to be tho, depends on your content choice and saves I guess.

  3. #3
    Community Member TedSandyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guzzlr View Post
    I'm curious about the current state of spell resistance. My general thoughts are that unless you are in the "correct" race, it's not worth putting anything towards it. However, I am often wrong and would love to be so in that case. Is there a number to aim for for SR to be relevant in low reaper?
    One of the level 3 cloaks has SR of 17. I usually wear that at low levels. It helps against hold spells. I upgrade it to a crafted 20 later, pretty much because I don't really have anything else for a cloak at the lower levels. Then, when I get to a level with a decent cloak, I get rid of it because SR 20 is pretty useless by that time.

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    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guzzlr View Post
    I'm curious about the current state of spell resistance. My general thoughts are that unless you are in the "correct" race, it's not worth putting anything towards it. However, I am often wrong and would love to be so in that case. Is there a number to aim for for SR to be relevant in low reaper?
    Currently, the SR is in my opinion bad balanced and very odd...
    It depends foremost on the class if you got an SR that is high enough to be useful (I consider SR as useful if you can be sure you are protected).
    For this, you should be either a barbarian occult slayer or a monk because the SR bonuses of this classes fully stack with items etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by acemonkey View Post
    20+ mob cr regardless of difficulty. https://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_Resistance
    Unfortunately, it is not regardless of difficulty, in reaper monster casters get a bonus to spell penetration depending on the number of skulls, how this is exactly calculated is unknown as far as I know.
    This means the question is if it is a new calculation for reaper or if the monsters got just only a fixed bonus to spell penetration.
    Anyway, the result is that you are not 100% protected even with 100+ Spell Resistance at level 30 in high skull reaper.
    And it is for me unknown if there is a score that protects you 100% in reaper (if there is a different calculation similar to AC in reaper)
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    Community Member NemesisAlien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chacka_DDO View Post
    Currently, the SR is in my opinion bad balanced and very odd...
    It depends foremost on the class if you got an SR that is high enough to be useful (I consider SR as useful if you can be sure you are protected).
    For this, you should be either a barbarian occult slayer or a monk because the SR bonuses of this classes fully stack with items etc.



    Unfortunately, it is not regardless of difficulty, in reaper monster casters get a bonus to spell penetration depending on the number of skulls, how this is exactly calculated is unknown as far as I know.
    This means the question is if it is a new calculation for reaper or if the monsters got just only a fixed bonus to spell penetration.
    Anyway, the result is that you are not 100% protected even with 100+ Spell Resistance at level 30 in high skull reaper.
    And it is for me unknown if there is a score that protects you 100% in reaper (if there is a different calculation similar to AC in reaper)
    Uhh... Monk SR dose not stack with gear SR...

  6. #6
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NemesisAlien View Post
    Uhh... Monk SR dose not stack with gear SR...
    It stacks with enhancement and insightful bonus from items and also with racial SR and SR from destinies.
    I would recommend you to not claim things you obviously dont know and maybe test it before you claim it...
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    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Here is my opinion on the matter.

    Players add bonuses like incorporeal and concealment (dusk, blur and displacement) which has benefits between 10% to 50% chance of being missed independently. Statistically layered it has a different number generally better.

    Example: AC + Incorporeal + Concealment + Dodge stacked to optimize the chance of being missed for each build
    * Keep in mind that each of those can be bypassed based on what you are fighting. Which is why stacking helps.

    With Spells this formula comes down to:
    Saves + Spell Resistance.

    So statistically even a 10% Spell Resistance could mean a slightly better then 10% chance of not being effected by a spell that needs to bypass SR.

    Now each build has to find that balance that works best for them. It may even mean using a "swappable" item when you run into those types of casters, thus having something better in place when not being spammed spells the SR can help protect against.

    Some say it is CR + 20 of the caster outside of Reaper, with each Skull adding to that number. But keep in mind that in many cases people are discussing "No fail" or "Fail on a 1" numbers. That is not necessarily the "best" value to have, and if you are one that uses Dusk or Blur because you feel that is useful then SR giving you better then 10% should also seem useful for the same reason.

  8. #8
    Community Member vryxnr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    Here is my opinion on the matter.

    Players add bonuses like incorporeal and concealment (dusk, blur and displacement) which has benefits between 10% to 50% chance of being missed independently. Statistically layered it has a different number generally better.

    Example: AC + Incorporeal + Concealment + Dodge stacked to optimize the chance of being missed for each build
    * Keep in mind that each of those can be bypassed based on what you are fighting. Which is why stacking helps.

    With Spells this formula comes down to:
    Saves + Spell Resistance.

    So statistically even a 10% Spell Resistance could mean a slightly better then 10% chance of not being effected by a spell that needs to bypass SR.

    Now each build has to find that balance that works best for them. It may even mean using a "swappable" item when you run into those types of casters, thus having something better in place when not being spammed spells the SR can help protect against.

    Some say it is CR + 20 of the caster outside of Reaper, with each Skull adding to that number. But keep in mind that in many cases people are discussing "No fail" or "Fail on a 1" numbers. That is not necessarily the "best" value to have, and if you are one that uses Dusk or Blur because you feel that is useful then SR giving you better then 10% should also seem useful for the same reason.
    The only issue with regards to SR is this: spell resistance checks do not automatically fail on a 1. So if you have an SR of 17, and an enemy has a caster level of 16, it will ALWAYS bypass your SR. Against that enemy, SR 17 does nothing. It is the same as having a 0. So there are break points / minimum values you must reach for specific content in order to see any benefit at all.

    (unless SR was changed to use a different formula to make the caster level check to overcome it such that failure is always possible regardless of the numbers. But in it's original incarnation in DDO, if a roll of a 1 plus your caster level is higher than the target SR, then that SR may as well not even exist)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by acemonkey View Post
    20+ mob cr regardless of difficulty. https://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_Resistance

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Gauntl...e_Iron_Council +78 enhancement and insightful
    and twist t2 serenity for +9 untyped stacking

    gets you to 87 without race/class investment, don't know how useful it would turn out to be tho, depends on your content choice and saves I guess.
    Thank you for link!

    So, assuming a CR of 63 (LE Sharn - no skulls)I would need a 65 SR to get any benefit (the monsters will always at least get 63 + 1 and a match equals a "hit")?

    Crafted Item: +51 (34+17) = Not useful yet.
    Leg Drow Outrunner: +10 (Quality) = 61 Not useful yet.

    So, that leaves us with Race: Drow, Class: Monk, and/or Epic stuff (plus above); or the Raid item to make SR valid?

    Assuming my goofy math is close, it doesn't seem to be something worth going after... which is a shame.

  10. #10
    Community Member NemesisAlien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chacka_DDO View Post
    It stacks with enhancement and insightful bonus from items and also with racial SR and SR from destinies.
    I would recommend you to not claim things you obviously dont know and maybe test it before you claim it...
    Insightful of course, profane, etc etc etc will stack, I mean say gear says you got SP of X, dont stack with monk. (Unless they fixed it?)

    I also recall drow dont stack with monk, so pointless having drow monk. (Again unless they fixed it?)

  11. #11
    Community Member Chacka_DDO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NemesisAlien View Post
    Insightful of course, profane, etc etc etc will stack, I mean say gear says you got SP of X, dont stack with monk. (Unless they fixed it?)

    I also recall drow dont stack with monk, so pointless having drow monk. (Again unless they fixed it?)
    Things can change basically with every update...
    Currently monk SR stack with EVERYTHING, as far as I know, the same for the SR from barbarian occult slayer capstone.
    And this is already for years the case.
    For monks, I just tested it to verify it (because I usually dont claim someone is wrong before I did a test) for barbarians I cannot verify it currently but on my latest barbarian a few weeks ago it worked also as I said.
    Therefore once again, before you tell someone is wrong, which can always happen because the game can change without any announcement from the developers, please TEST it and verify what you think.
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  12. #12
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    I've been running around with 96 SR at cap for a few days and it seems to work well. I haven't really tested it too much. I use the Con/SR artifact and Serenity twisted, which gives +18 SR. (The description for serenity isn't very clear. Rank 3 does gives +18 SR though. You really have to twist it if you are going for SR in your build.)

    The issue I have is that many spells in DnD that have SR checks do not have SR checks in DDO. Basically anything that does direct damage doesn't have a SR check in DDO, so it won't help you with burning blood in DDO but it would in PnP. DDO spells don't follow PnP for balance reasons I guess.

    If you have high saves and maybe a no fail a one, I wouldn't really bother with SR. It does help a if you have low saves though. Especially will saves - Hold Person and Otto's Dancing Sphere can really suck. Also, SR is useful against certain effects that have no saving throw but do have an SR check. Like Beholder rays and umber hulk gaze.

    When Ravenloft came out I used a CC item with 51 SR and twisted +18 (serenity) and +6 Racial for a total of 75 and it worked fairly well in low reaper Ravenloft.
    Last edited by Gemini-Dragon357; 06-23-2019 at 11:18 PM.

  13. #13
    Community Member NemesisAlien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chacka_DDO View Post
    Things can change basically with every update...
    Currently monk SR stack with EVERYTHING, as far as I know, the same for the SR from barbarian occult slayer capstone.
    And this is already for years the case.
    For monks, I just tested it to verify it (because I usually dont claim someone is wrong before I did a test) for barbarians I cannot verify it currently but on my latest barbarian a few weeks ago it worked also as I said.
    Therefore once again, before you tell someone is wrong, which can always happen because the game can change without any announcement from the developers, please TEST it and verify what you think.
    Fixxed is good, thanks.

  14. #14
    Community Member J1NG's Avatar
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    Bit of a late necro bump, as I've only had time to do a rough look into this now, but it should be relevant to part of the thread topic at least. It appears that for each Skull in Reaper, an enemy caster is given +10 to +12 Spell Pen to bypass SR. Or +10 per Skull + Spell Pen Feat, Greater Spell Pen Feat and Epic Spell Pen Feat for a total of +8.

    Rough test results
    No Skulls: Enemy CR 54. SR 106, no bypass.
    3 Skulls: Enemy CR 54. SR 106, ~30-50% bypass. If 3x10, we would have 54 + 30, which would be 84 Pen, which in a 20 roll would never breach the SR of 106 still. If including the Feats as well, we would have 54 + 30 + 8, giving 92, which is in striking distance of the SR 106 I am sporting when rolling for Spell Pent (a D20).
    4 Skulls: Enemy CR 54. SR 106, ~60-80% bypass. If 4x10, we would have 54 + 40, or 94 Pen, which on a roll of 20, will be able to bypass my SR of 106 fairly easily. If including the Feats as well, we would reach 54 + 40 + 8, giving 102 SR, which would probably explain why my character was forced to rely on their saves instead in most cases.

    I'll conduct some further tests later on to confirm this theory. But if it holds, it means on R6, most (highest) attainable SR would already be useless, since if a caster is CR 54 + 60 + 8, we're talking players needing SR 123 before even having a 5% chance to ignore the effect. And remember, SR won't affect all spells either.

    Think the Devs might need to tweak this number downwards for each Skull if its true, as not only does it eliminate one form of protection, it's also a weak form of protection as well. (Since SR won't protect against direct damaging spells in most cases). And to get anywhere near a necessary amount to make it viable being deminished so easily, is just a big old magical slap in the face who have invested into it, only to see it made redundant so easily. Honestly, 6-7 skulls seeing large difficulty I can get behind, 10 skulls being near impossible to make SR work, but should still expect possibilities I can get behind. But 3-4 skull and we're already making it pointless? Overly harsh I feel.

    J1NG
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  15. #15
    Community Member J1NG's Avatar
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    Further test results for those interested in checking the numbers:

    Demon Assault
    Tiefling Adept
    CR 54

    Spell Resistance 106

    Methodology:
    Lure Adept from third group of enemies away from Portal. Have them cast spells at me from range. As they have 3 spells that should check for SR (Irrisitible Dance, Power Word Stun and Symbol of Stunning), with 1 of them being touch range only (Dance), we will remain at range and zerg in and out of the Symbol and watch for procs for Power Word Stun (which has a visual cue as well when successfully bypassing SR).

    Epic Elite
    Power Word Stun
    Attempts: 2
    Bypassed SR: 0

    Symbol of Stunning:
    Attempts: 33
    Bypassed SR: 0

    SR Protection: 100%

    Reaper 1
    Power Word Stun
    Attempts: 5
    Bypassed SR: 0

    Symbol of Stunning:
    Attempts: 29
    Bypassed SR: 4

    SR Protection: ~88%

    Reaper 2
    Power Word Stun
    Attempts: 3
    Bypassed SR: 0

    Symbol of Stunning:
    Attempts: 43
    Bypassed SR: 11

    SR Protection: ~76%


    Reaper 3
    Power Word Stun
    Attempts: 5
    Bypassed SR: 1

    Symbol of Stunning:
    Attempts: 43
    Bypassed SR: 22

    SR Protection: ~52%

    Had a few quick tests performed with SR 60 at Epic Elite, and SR 113 on Reaper 3. Results as follows:

    SR 60
    Epic Elite
    Power Word Stun
    Attempts: 1
    Bypassed SR: 0

    Symbol of Stunning:
    Attempts: 11
    Bypassed SR: 8

    SR Protection: ~33%

    SR 113
    Reaper 3

    Power Word Stun
    Attempts: 1
    Bypassed SR: 0

    Symbol of Stunning:
    Attempts: 32
    Bypassed SR: 10

    SR Protection: ~70%

    ---

    Epic Elite Enemy Spell Pen:
    Assuming CR + 10 + d20 for enemies, we get 54 + 10 + 20 (max), resulting in 84 Spell Pen which would only be able to hit someone with 83 SR for Epic Elite. However, with SR 60 only on Epic Elite, I was clearly getting SR procs of around 33%, despite this formula clearly giving them an edge by having a minimum Spell Pen of 65, far in excess of my 60 SR. So if we remove the +10 from the Spell Pen bonus for enemies, we have instead CR + d20, resulting in 54 + 20 (max), or 74 Spell Pen. This leaves me with a Spell Pen roll of 1 to 5 leaving me protected by SR, leaving me around 25% protected, which through my smaller sample size, would be closer to what we experience in game.

    Reaper 1 Spell Pen:
    If we assume still that it is CR + d20, there will be 0% chance of any success of breaching SR 106. Even if we bring back the +10 bonus that is theorised for normal mobs, this will only yield a maximum of 84 Spell Pen (including the d20 roll), which is still short by 32(!) to have a 5% chance to affect my SR 106 monk when rolling a 20. We can see from the rough numbers tested above that there is a loss of around ~12% protection on Reaper Skull 1. So between 10%-15% protection loss would equate to being around 2 to 3 Spell Pen of a d20 of my SR of 106 (so 106, 107 and maybe 108). So they should have a Spell Pen Bonus total of between 86 to 88 before the d20 roll to achieve this number for bypass. This would suggest that for Reaper 1, enemy casters have been given a +32 to 34 Spell Pen Bonus if it follows normal SR/Spell Pen rules.

    Reaper 2 Spell Pen:
    With a near 25% breach of my SR 106, the bonus that enemies must have been given would be equal to around 2 or 3 Spell Pen Bonus more than on R1. Looking at the above Reaper 1 theory, this is sound, as we lose another 10%-15% per Skull increase. So the Spell Pen Bonus would be totalling approximately 91 or 92 for enemy casters. Which if we now factor the above, starts to look like:

    CR + 30 (Reaper) + 3 per Skull + d20 for enemy Spell Pen

    So we have here 54 + 30 + 6 + d20, or 90 + d20. Giving a caster a chance to breach SR 106 with a roll of 20 (110), 19 (109), 18 (108), 17 (107) and 16 (106), five numbers, roughly 25%. Which seems to fit.

    Reaper 3 Spell Pen:
    At nearly 50% effectiveness only for SR 106, the bonus enemies would now have been given would at least 9 points under my SR rating of 106 (inclusive of my SR rating to breach), so a total of 95 Spell Pen before the d20 roll. This would also align itself with the numbers given above in the short tests conducted. But, for completeness, if we try the proposed formula above:

    CR + 30 + 3 per Skull + d20, we get 54 + 30 + 9 + d20, or 93 + d20, a range of 94 to 113.

    113, 112, 111, 110, 109, 108, 107 and 106 will breach my SR of 106, that is 8 out of 20 chance, or 40% chance of success at breaching my SR. Not quite the ~48% above, but looks close enough if tests are done further possibly. Also, we may need to consider that it's more than 3 Spell Pen per Skull, possibly 3.3 or something, resulting in funny Spell Pen (so its more 45% which would be closer to numbers produced). However, if you read on...

    Staying at Reaper 3, but bumping the SR up by 7 to 113, if we attempt the numbers again, we get:

    A range of 94 to 113 still, as that has not changed, but with a SR of 113, this should only net a 5% chance of Spell Pen success on my monk. Yet the numbers show at least a low double digit chance at breaching SR on R3. So something is clearly wonky and needs an explanation from the Devs on how exactly this is supposed to be working so players can go test this out proper. But as it is right now, assuming the proposed formula is right, most SR will fail at Reaper 2, uncommonly high SR will survive up to Reaper 3 to 5, and anything at Reaper 6 and onwards is pointless in trying to obtain with current methods of obtaining SR right now in game.

    Will work on checking numbers if each Skull reduces SR checks by a % amount later on, but really, Devs, drop us this info, it's better than most groping in the dark.

    J1NG
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  16. #16
    Chaotic Evil Mindos's Avatar
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    Sorry for slight necro, but I was looking at ddowiki and noticed some oddities:

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legend...utrunner_Armor wiki says 10 quality but picture says 14?
    https://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_Resistance says Monk Diamond soul does NOT stack with racial. (also lists 10 quality from Drow outrunner armor again)
    https://ddowiki.com/page/Diamond_Soul says Diamond Soul DOES stack with racial.

    And to add to the discussion: https://ddowiki.com/page/Fury_of_the..._against_Weird stacks as you get lower in health, for a +95 primal bonus if you are below 30% health. So one could maybe make a tank and intentionally maintain below 30 percent HP, but even if not it appears at first glance that Ward against Weird would at least for sure free you from whatever spell as your HP went down as the SR kicks into higher gear? Again probably only useful on a tank with extra large HP since the high damage hits would one shot most.

    So a 7000 hp tank (what's the highest tank HP numbers people are getting now anyway?) would get a bonus +95 primal at 2100 HP, stacking with roughly Guantlet of iron council and drow outrunner's subtotal of 92 equals 187.
    Then we can add monk diamond soul or drow racial (or both if they stack or not) 12 from drow, diamond soul 30 so now equals 229.

    https://ddowiki.com/page/Grandmaster...owers#Serenity is this bugged, is it 9 or 18 SR? So add this on top, 238 or 247. Plus 6 from Grandmaster ED core, = 244 or 253.

    Or, if you don't want Monk, you can go Barbarian https://ddowiki.com/page/Occult_Slayer_enhancements and the 5th core is Mind Over Magic: You have Spell Resistance equal to your Constitution score.
    So subtract 30 from Monk and add whatever your Con score is (Con or Con modifier?) https://ddowiki.com/page/Constitutio...etical_maximum So just raw roughly looking at that possible 131 Con on a Drow, (plus whatever filigree) giving a new total of 345 or 354 SR at 30% HP depending on what Serenity gives 9 or 18.

    So highest 354 at 30% HP (Ward against Weird +95 Primal bonus kicking in) or:
    Sustained 259 at 100% HP. (If you wear the Drow Outrunner armor's 10 or 14 quality)

    But as listed above, in higher reaper 7+, is 259 gonna save your bacon? Is 354 as you're going down gonna save the tank?

    Edit: Let us assume you need 121DC at R1 (easy to remember, R1 121) 121DC is probably wrong, but its a great startng point. Add 3 per skull above R1. So add 27 for R10. 27 because we are starting our math at R1. So no fail DC R1 121 going up to R10 149.
    What DC's are casters seeing they have to make in R10? Is sharn different? What armor fort bypass do you need? What Dire Charge DC? etc. All very loosely based on the above math and hard work.

    So will this work or not? Who knows? Will it work both outside and inside of Sharn (whats the tooltip when you examine them, level 2 reaper or something?) And what does Sharn mean, higher saves? Higher saves and a delay between mob getting hit and it taking effect?

    Edit: Occult Slayer does not stack with items, so take off -52 giving a new total of 207 or 302. doh
    Last edited by Mindos; 05-13-2020 at 01:16 AM.

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